I read the story about the child in grade one, a six year old in North Dakota, who refused to stand for the Pledge and was hauled up by the teacher. I understand the motivation must have originated with his parents, that's rather obvious, but would a six year old have a strong enough ... aversion... to the inclusion of god in the pledge that he'd be driven to act independently? How well does a child that age rationalize?

From the way this question is posed I'm assuming that perhaps you don't have children of your own. Of course there are a whole bunch of variables to this question too. My answers are just based on observations of my own offspring over several decades. IMHO until a child is about ten years old they don't have the cognitive skills to have an independent firm conviction on an issue.

Up to around that age parental and caregiving figures are the strongest influence on values directly or indirectly. After that age a child typically starts to branch out discovering new perspectives through peers and exposure to the world. I feel a child who isn't able to mentally process an issue certainly isn't able to hold a firm conviction on it...although society is full of adults who do just that.

An important illustration of this would be children who kill. A 9 year old understands they were very unhappy and they wanted to punish the person who made them unhappy. Do they have the foresight to realize the future from committing an act of violence? No they don't. But they aren't innocent either. That would be a deeply troubled child who needs future supervision.

However a 12 year old who commits murder should be held responsible on a case by case basis. A 12 year old with a gun understands the result of their actions. A 14 year old even more so. For violent crimes I believe a child fourteen and up can be tried as adults.

Back to the original question. Should children have to stand for the pledge? That's a tough one. How about in the interest of peace in the classroom. All children must stand, all children do not have to salute or repeat the pledge.

lovemybull wrote:From the way this question is posed I'm assuming that perhaps you don't have children of your own.

Oh but I do. Grown children. I also have grandchildren, the eldest of which is 10.

lovemybull wrote:Back to the original question. Should children have to stand for the pledge? That's a tough one. How about in the interest of peace in the classroom. All children must stand, all children do not have to salute or repeat the pledge.

I asked the question because I was trying to understand what the boy in the classroom must have felt. I just thought, well, I'm sure he his parents prompted him to take the stand he took - at least initially - but what gave him the courage to keep at it when the parents were not there? Would he have his own set of beliefs firmly rooted at the age of six? I find it hard to believe that and wonder if he is only trying to please his mom and dad.

When my daughter was in class and preparing to make her Confirmation, she decided she did not want to. She decided she didn't want to be Catholic and didn't want to participate in the rituals any longer. I think she was twelve. She wasn't passionate about it, she was level-headed about it, but adamant. But a child six years younger... I don't know if he would reason clearly at that age.

I think maybe the question, "should children have to stand for the pledge" is different than what I asked, but equally important and worth discussing. While I'm unsure if a child of six has the reasoning ability to take a stand on such issues, I think that if he does, he ought to have the right to take that stand. Or sit, as the case might be.

And it seems reasonable to say "in the interest of peace" (I'm all for peace) but maybe that would only mean peace for the classroom; unrest within the child. I don't know.

All apologies if I sounded facetious, if you've been in the trenches with kids of your own I certainly respect your opinions. Regarding the child not wanting to do the pledge I do think that was following the model of his parents. But with his peers watching that he still maintained his stand...some kids would have felt pressured to just go along with everyone else.
Interesting you mention the Catholic church. My kids attended a small town Catholic school. This was only due to the shortcomings of the local public school. Both children were pre-teen but they knew I disagreed with many tenants of the church. One memorable event was Right to Life day. All the students got nifty rubber fetuses and Pro Life t shirts. Both of my kids refused to participate completely...their choice. My influence? What they gleaned from my influence? I don't really know.

All the students got nifty rubber fetuses and Pro Life t shirts? Oh my. I don't even know what to say to that.

There was something in the news again today about a student who refused to stand for the pledge. I guess I should do some homework... learn what is the purpose of reciting the pledge in schools - what does it really do for the kids? (and what does it do for all the nascar fans?)

I suppose the same conservatives who so joyously sing along with "YMCA" at sporting events? I dunno I just had to throw that in there

I asked the question because I was trying to understand what the boy in the classroom must have felt. I just thought, well, I'm sure he his parents prompted him to take the stand he took - at least initially - but what gave him the courage to keep at it when the parents were not there? Would he have his own set of beliefs firmly rooted at the age of six? I find it hard to believe that and wonder if he is only trying to please his mom and dad.

No 6-year old child is capable of understanding the reasons behind reciting the Pledge. So that child refusing to recite the pledge was almost certainly following the instructions of his or her parents. I haven't read the article so I can only assume the parents have an issue with the "one nation under God" part. And so do I. I am not personally "under God" as I don't believe in a God. My little boy is only 3 right now but the Pledge will be an issue for me when he gets a bit older. I damn sure don't want my boy being indoctrinated in Christianity.

It is interesting to note that our Pledge was not written with any reference to God. About midway in the life of the Pledge the Knights of Columbus bullied Congress into injecting these words. So literally 1/2 of the life of our Pledge and there was no mention of God.

I find it very wrong to brainwash children into any cult, religion or political party before they're old enough to intelligently understand the subject. Children are not born as Christians or Democrats or supporters of the NRA.

It is argued that children are not born as atheists but this is simply wrong. All humans are born without beliefs. The Pope was born an atheist.

The proper and broad definition of atheism is "the lack of belief in a God or gods." Children are atheists up until they are introduced and indoctrinated into the religious worldview of their parents. No matter what the parents religion may be...their kids absorb it often by force. This is not fair and is a form of child abuse. Richard Dawkins has spoken out against this many many times. And like Richard Dawkins I do not want children being brainwashed to be strong atheists. Leave their brains a blank slate and allow them to learn on their own and eventually decide what they wish to decide.

That doesn't mean I will ignore questions my little boy asks me about where we go when we die or what makes the sun shine. He'll get solid answers. I'm just not going to discuss "God" or the lack of a God until he is older.

Chris OConnor wrote:I can only assume the parents have an issue with the "one nation under God" part. And so do I.

As do I.

Chris OConnor wrote:I find it very wrong to brainwash children into any cult...

I'm curious about the word "brainwash". Sometimes I think it's an appropriate word but more often, I think it isn't. Maybe, for many parents, teaching their children about religion is at par with teaching them about nature... science... etiquette... dressing themselves... etc. Like, "Tommy, you can't put your paper sailboat in the tub because it will get wet and fall apart. Eat your oatmeal, it's good for you. God made you and he loves you. Don't run on the sidewalk when there are people out walking you may bump into them. If you mix yellow and red you can make orange. Drink your milk and turn that off at the table. Grandpa was a really nice man but he got very sick and now he's in heaven. That's a cocoon, and there is a butterfly growing in it..." Brainwash implies mindfulness and maybe there's a lot more mindlessness going on with regards to raising children with religion. Fanaticism aside.

Chris OConnor wrote:All humans are born without beliefs. The Pope was born an atheist./quote]

I agree.

Chris OConnor wrote:The proper and broad definition of atheism is "the lack of belief in a God or gods."

What would the term for "the belief that there is no god" be? Is there a different between that and atheism? "The belief that there is no god" feels more... committed to me.

My challenge is with my grandchildren. All of their parents fall into the "mindless" style I wrote about above. Much of that is my fault... I was raised Catholic (in a lazy way, mainly), went to a Catholic school... baptized my children and enrolled them in a Catholic school. Because I was mindless. But when I took off my blinders, I could no longer keep quiet about my doubts and so I concentrate on challenging the blind-faith kind of thing in my own children, which lead to much discussion and although it didn't change their minds, it may have prevented further... um... corruption. I don't know. But they've baptized their children and enrolled them in the Catholic school system.

Now my grandchildren talk about God. For the younger ones, I am silent. But for the 8 and 10 year old, I respond with, "Some people believe that. Other people believe differently." and go from there. I am honest when they ask if I believe. I say no. (One day, we built a sand fort in the sand box. They wanted a king. I said okay, we can have a king but I don't believe that the king should be able to have the best castle and be the only one with running water. My 8 year old granddaughter let out a sigh and said, "Okay - you don't believe the king should have the best castle; you don't believe in God; you don't believe that the magic eraser can clean everything... what do you believe in?!!! I said, "Um.. fairies." That made them happy.) But I have a really, really difficult time when I have to attend any ritual involving Catholicism. It pains me. I fret about it for days. I can no longer leave a church without feeling just awful. And their parents act very hurt if I say I don't want to go. It's become quite a dilemma. They (my daughters) say I should support the grandkids in whatever they do but I haven't yet been able to feel supportive about religion. Gives me angst. I wish I'd start seeing clearly when my children were only 3!