DB Roy wrote:I mean, all 17 of our intelligence agencies say there was collusion.

Careful - they agreed Russia attempted to hack the election in Trump's favor, nothing about collusion.

You claim obstruction will be the main vehicle, but I think there's another critical aspect that has been under-reported which is Trump's business dealings with the Russian mob and money laundering. I recommend spending 45 minutes with the following documentary out of The Netherlands. The names of those Russian contacts will become much more well known soon as the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network of the Dept. of Treasury is now sharing documents with the Senate Committee investigating Trump.

The Dubious Friends of Donald Trump (Part 1)

Yeah except Trump urged the Russians to release 30,000 emails she supposedly deleted and he did it on national television. How can he do that and still claim the collusion is a made-up story? A sensible person who is guilty would feign outrage over Russia's actions but Trump is not a sensible person. He knew what was going on.

I never said obstruction will be the main vehicle. That was simply my advice. Go after obstruction because it's a ready-made case. Do I want to see all the dirt dragged out in the open? Absolutely. Will it all prove collusion in the end? I don't know. So I'd go for obstruction. We know he did that.

DB Roy wrote:

geo wrote:
Yes, I'm surprised that anyone is talking about impeachment at this stage. Trump has not been proven to have committed any crimes.

What???? So, if my wife is found murdered in my house and all the evidence points to me, I should not be charged because no one has proven I did it??? See, you have to charge the person first in order to prove he did it. That's called a trial. But before a trial can be begin, charges have to be filed. You DO know that what the word "impeach" means right? Of course Trump must be impeached, it is the only way his guilt can be established or dismissed.

Okay, I did misuse the word "impeach". But you're still missing my larger point.

In your wife's murder case, if all evidence points to you, of course you would be charged. But in Trump's situation, you don't have a good case at all (or at least not when I wrote that comment). Obstruction of justice is not an easy case to make, and the one line quoted in the Comey memo wasn't going to be enough, according to several legal analysts in an article I read. The main gist of my comment is that for the good of our nation, it would be better to wait have a slam dunk case against Trump. Without a slam dunk case that is accepted by both parties, you would only be feeding the witch hunt narrative.

Either way, we obviously need to continue investigating Trump and his administration for possible ties to the Russians. Let Mueller turn up what he may. Flynn seems a pretty unsavory character and now even Jared Kushner looks like a person of interest as well.[/quote]

http://www.newsweek.com/did-trump-obstr ... ion-611703

from the article:

"The more difficult issue will be to prove Trump’s intent. A “corrupt” intent requires proof that Trump acted with an improper purpose, an intent to obstruct the investigation as opposed to a more benign, lawful intent."

For Trump to be convicted of obstruction of justice, you have to show intent. If Trump never colluded with the Russians, where's the intent? Isn't it more likely that Trump just fired Comey because he was tired of the Russian investigation? There might be those in the Trump administration who actually do have something to hide, but I still don't see much of a chance that Trump himself was working with the Russians, orchestrating the leaks.

DB Roy wrote:
You seem to be changing what you were saying though. You said:

"I agree that it would be best for our system if we simply endure a bad president, and not make his incompetence or even his abuse of power reasons to remove him."


That's not saying wait until we have evidence, that's saying that even if he broke the law that shouldn't be a reason to remove him. So my question is, what in the hell then would be a good reason to remove him??

Sorry if there's any inconsistency.

First, it's not a good idea to try to impeach for lack of competence. The Constitution doesn't support that as a justification for impeachment. Abuse of powers without illegality is another one that can be iffy. Presidents do abuse their powers, though often there's little agreement that they've done so, due to good old political partisanship. I say stick with treason, bribery, and high crimes and misdemeanors. Interestingly, "high" in "high crimes" doesn't mean "serious," but crimes committed by those in high places. "Misdemeanor," which for us has taken on a meaning of minor infractions, for the framers could mean misconduct quite serious.

I thought Fred Hiatt put the matter well in this morning's column in the Wash Post:

Impeachment should not be ruled out. If special counsel Robert S. Mueller III gathers evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors, Congress should proceed, regardless of partisan advantage or political fallout.

But Trump opponents are kidding themselves if they think that sacking him will restore comity and peace to the nation. And they are dodging the work they need to do if they let a focus on impeachment or removal under the 25th Amendment keep them from offering solutions to problems that contributed to Trump’s victory.

Impeachment has been and should be considered a “drastic remedy,” as attorney Gregory Craig called it when he was defending President Bill Clinton before the House Judiciary Committee in 1998.

Trump was legitimately elected by Americans who knew they were voting for an inexperienced, bombastic, intermittently truthful, thin-skinned, race-baiting businessman. If Trump turns out to be an inexperienced, bombastic, intermittently truthful, thin-skinned, race-baiting president, that should not come as a surprise. Nor is it grounds for impeachment.

Even if Trump turns out to be worse than feared, a failure, a disappointment even to his voters, someone who would, say, boorishly disparage America’s FBI chief as a “nut job” while speaking to America’s adversaries — even that would not be grounds for impeachment. The remedy for poor performance is to not reelect. It is a decision for the voters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

I watched your link, Landroid, and I realized i posted on this information some time ago in here but not a in-depth:

Trump’s Russian ties boggle the mind. Since the news that all 17 of America’s intelligence agencies agree that Russia hacked into four organizations associated with Hillary Clinton or the DNC and given the information to Julian Assange and subsequently published on Wikileaks, Trump has fervently defended Russia by appealing to Putin and Julian Assange—a man he wanted executed back in 2010 for publishing leaked emails damaging to him. Why would Trump openly cast doubt on his own intelligence agencies whom all living ex-presidents agree he will depend on for all his future intelligence briefings without which he cannot govern effectively? Because the reason for the Russian hacks were to influence the 2016 presidential election in Trump’s favor and against Hillary Clinton. Trump’s adamant refusal to accept the assessments of his own intelligence services can only be accounted for because he had prior knowledge of the hacking.

Trump, of course, denies he has any ties to Putin or to Russia. “I have ZERO investments in Russia,” he tweeted, a classic businessman’s and politician’s lie. Yes, he has zero investments in Russia because he has failed to land any. He did try to establish a Trump Tower in Moscow and failed. Investigations have shown he has been, for years, entangled with Russian “businessmen” and some of them are in Putin’s financial circle. Many of his aides, advisers and cabinet picks have extensive dealings with Russia and Putin.

But Trump’s Russian dealings are deep. The idea of building a Trump Tower in major cities around the world including the Soviet bloc isn’t even Trump’s idea (although he’ll gladly take credit for it). The idea was originally that of a Russian immigrant to the U.S. named Felix Sater. Trump claims to barely remember him in sworn testimony given in 2013 but Sater remembers Trump very well as they communicated on a regular basis for six years, that Sater flew to Colorado with Trump, that he escorted Trump’s kids, Donald Jr. and Ivanka, around Moscow in 2006. Sater was unable, however, to swing a deal to have a Tower built in Moscow.

Sater founded a firm called Bayrock Group LLC. He was also a government informant against the mob. Former business associates who lost money in Trump-related projects say that Sater has threatened to kill them. In 1991, Sater, working as a stockbroker, stabbed a commodities broker in the face with a piece of broken glass severely injuring him and lost his trading license and spent a year in prison starting in 1993. After getting out of prison, Sater joined up with an old acquaintance helping Wall Street brokers at White Rock Partners working in collusion with the La Cosa Nostra crime syndicate to run a $40 million stock fraud operation. He was busted in 1998 but became an informant to avoid more prison time. In 2001, he started Bayrock and had his own office the Trump Tower. Sater stated in 2008 during testimony given in a libel suit filed by Trump against author Tim O’Brien over his book “Trump Nation” (which Trump lost) that he became friendly with Trump and also met Donald Jr. when they worked on a deal together in Phoenix.

In 2005, Trump worked with Bayrock to develop various projects in Moscow. Sater was the go-between for Trump to a group of Russian investors but nothing came of the meetings. In 2007, a 46-story hotel called Trump Soho was launched in New York with the help of Bayrock. In 2009, a lawsuit was filed against Trump by condo buyers over the Trump International Hotel and Tower in Fort Lauderdale. One of the complaints was the Trump did not disclose the criminal past of one of the members of his team, presumably Sater. Trump simply washed his hands of the project claiming he had no liability.

Sater was sentenced in 2009 for his part in the stock fraud (it had been delayed because of his informant status which was netting them a great many crooks). He was fined $25,000 and did no prison time. In 2010, Trump Organization gave Sater its business cards and an office employing him to seek out more deals for the Trump empire. When Trump began his run for president, Sater declared his enthusiastic support stating, “He will make the greatest president of our century.”

Another partner in the Trump Soho project was the Sapir Organization founded Russian immigrant Tamir Sapir (now deceased). Working as a cab driver in New York, Sapir speculated on Russian oil and New York real estate and struck it big. Bayrock was controlled by a former Soviet official named Tevfik Arif. While Trump claims he did not know of Sater’s criminal history, Tim O’Brien says this is untrue, that Trump continued doing business with Sater even after his sordid past became public knowledge. In a deposition of Trump in 2007, O’Brien’s lawyers asked Trump if he was going to sever ties with Sater because of his ties with organized crime and Trump replied that he had not yet decided. Despite Trump’s claims of barely remembering Sater, there is a photo taken September 19, 2007 in New York at the Trump Soho launch party showing Trump speaking into a microphone and standing next to him are Tevfik Arif and Felix Sater. In 2008, Donald Jr. claimed, “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets; say in Dubai, and certainly with our project in SoHo and anywhere In New York. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia.”

O’Brien also knows about Trump’s dealings with the mob in Atlantic City going back to the 1990s, particularly with Kenneth Shapiro whom O’Brien calls “a street-level gangster and a bag man for Philadelphia’s Scarfo crime family…” and Daniel Sullivan, a mob associate and FBI informant. Trump later told O’Brien, “…[T]hey say that Dan Sullivan was the guy that killed Jimmy Hoffa.”

When American banks would no longer lend Trump money due to his many bankruptcies (and despite his supporters’ claims of what a brilliant businessman he is), he turned to Russian banks for loans. In 2013, he and Russian billionaire Aras Agalarov set up the Miss Universe pageant in Moscow. Trump Vodka was an attempt to break open the Russian market. It didn’t work. Trump also sold a Palm Beach mansion to a Russian billionaire named Dmitry Rybolovlev for $95 million.

So we know that Trump has been dealing with Russians in business for a long time. We know that American banks stopped lending Trump money some years ago and the belief is that he going to Russian banks for loans. So how beholden is Trump to the Russians? We know the Russians helped Trump get elected but is it credible that Trump knew nothing of it? If not, then who in the U.S. was colluding with the Russians to get Trump elected and why? I mean, if people were saying the Russians helped get me elected by hacking into government computers and those of rival political parties, I would demand an investigation. The idea of calling the intelligence agencies a bunch of bullshitters and citing a man I once wanted executed as an authority to counter their claims does not inspire anyone with a functioning brain to believe I had no involvement especially when I tell everyone to just forget about it and move on to other more pressing matters. That has to set off alarm bells. One should find the fact that Trump brazenly implored the Russians to find Hillary Clinton's missing 30,000 emails on national television before the election to be reason enough not to believe any claim that Trump did not know about clandestine Russian help in the election.

The implications are far-reaching. Everything from American domestic policy and security to NATO and Middle East policy is profoundly affected if Trump is owned by the Russians. We cannot trust anything he decides on because we don't know who is actually calling the shots. When one looks at what we DO know about Russian involvement in the election, one should greatly alarmed at how deftly it was performed. DNC information hacked and given to Wikileaks, damaging fake news stories about Hillary Clinton made up by RT and spread through the media with help from Infowars and Breitbart--both outlets closely associated with Trump.

The question is when did Trump become so enamored with Russia? The answer seems to be in the late 80s when his own empire was on the verge of dying in a black pool of bankruptcy. Someone rescued him. Who? The answer likely lies in his tax returns which we will never see--unless someone leaks them. So we MUST question why Trump has surrounded himself with so many people with close ties to Russia and personal friends of Putin--Rex Tillerson, Michael Flynn, Carter Page, Paul Manafort, Boris Ephshtein (the Russian-born communications director for Trump's inaugural committee and himself an investment banker with close ties to Moscow), etc.

I am shocked how easily his minions and diehard republicans have fallen in line to either praise Russia or demand people lay off Trump's relationship to that country. Would they do that for Hillary or Obama? No. But one also has to wonder how long this can go on. Someone is going to dig up something sooner or later. Some insider fed up with the bullshit is going to leak something very damaging and the dirty laundry will come spilling out. There can be no doubt that the Russians can ruin Trump politically and financially at any moment if they choose to. I expect that someday they may elect to do just that. The question, what we will have lost by the time that happens?

trump-is-a-dangerous-and-deranged-man-c ... it=Bayrock

DB Roy wrote:Go after obstruction because it's a ready-made case.

We don't have to pick one. Five articles of impeachment were written against Nixon. The Judiciary committee approved three to move forward. I think Clinton faced two articles.

Sure. We could add violations to the emoluments clause, for example. In fact, I think he should get whacked with that one. The only thing we owe to Trump is that, after this, I don't want to hear anymore about how we need a businessman in the White House. I've never agreed with that and this is why.

Well, Comey testified today:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnb7Kz

He didn't say anything that sensible people didn't already know--Trump is a liar and untrustworthy and he fired Comey in an attempt to derail the Russian investigation--something Trump himself admitted to Lester Holt on national TV. He repeated the story that Trump wanted and expected complete loyalty to him. Trump denies this but who would believe that? Trump demanding and expecting absolute loyalty??? Trump???? I mean, if you're going to lie at least try to come across as believable. Of course Trump demanded loyalty--that's how he has always operated. He doesn't have any himself but he expects it from others.

The public overwhelmingly believes Trump is trying to derail the investigation proving that since Nov 8, the public has grown a brain. When a man admits he tried to derail the investigation--believe him. The public also overwhelmingly believes Comey over Trump. Gee, I wonder why.

This is looking possibly like the beginning of the end for Trump. He doesn't look like he is going to recover from this. It's amazing that all this has happened in the 5 months he has been in office. Can we go through 3 1/2 more years of this?

In other news, Mr. Deal-Maker can't get Mexico to pay for the wall as he promised his stupid voters would happen so the latest brilliant idea is that we'll festoon the thing with solar panels to generate enough energy to pay for this idiotic idea. First. Trump, build the wall. Okay? Build it. I challenge you to build it. THEN make Mexico pay it for because that is what you said you were going to do. So quit bullshitting around and do what you said you were going to do. That's partly what got your fat, stupid ass into the White House was that you would build a wall and Mexico would pay for it. Now do it. And remember--the wall got 10 feet higher.

The Senate is set to unveil their healthcare repeal. It has to go back to the House for approval though. The White Nationalist Caucus---er, I mean, the Freedom Caucus, has already stated that they won't back it if the Senate changed anything in the bill they sent to them. Actually, it's a lose-lose. If it passes, Trump will sign it, people will lose insurance, others will hooray over their cheap premiums only to find out that it doesn't pay anything when you get sick. Hard to believe they plan to unveil this monstrosity before the mid-terms. But then, who with a brain ever said the republicans were smart?

Landroid: "Careful - they agreed Russia attempted to hack the election in Trump's favor, nothing about collusion."

Well, that's no longer the case. As we should all know by now, Donald Trump Jr just released "an email chain of my emails" to the media and handed them the story that many journalists had been trying to prove for a year! Namely, that the Team Trump colluded with Russia to influence the election in Trump's favor by digging up dirt on Hillary Clinton.

Trump Jr received an email written by a music publisher from Britain that a Russian lawyer with ties to the Russian govt wanted to meet with him to relay some damaging intelligence on Clinton because Russia favors a Trump presidency. Trump Jr responded, "...I love it. Especially later in the summer."

Ooch! So anyway, Trump Jr takes Kushner and Manafort with him and they go meet with the lawyer who turns out to have nothing on Clinton.

Junior and perpetual surrogate idiot Kellyanne Conway are both resorting to the worst defense imaginable: There was no information so we had nothing to influence the election with and so we are not guilty. Uhhhhhh...that's not a defense. If I point a loaded pistol at your head and pull the trigger and the gun jams, that doesn't absolve me of any guilt in a crime. It's attempted murder instead of murder.

Now, it's true "collusion" is not a crime per se. But tampering with an election is and so is accepting something of value from a foreign govt for personal gain. Doesn't have to be money, just something of value.

But the bigger problem is not what legally can or can't be done (it's debatable that Trump Junior committed a definite crime), the problem lies in the court of public opinion. That's a case where Team Trump loses because they've wasted their political capital denying ANY contact with the Russians. It's all FAKE NEWS!!! But that is not the case now. Incredibly, Trump is still insisting that it is. It's still fake news. But I wonder which part he is saying is fake. It can't be the part that says no one on Team Trump has had any contact with the Russians at all much less about the election. That part got blown down the shitter.

Once again, we are seeing the noose tighten around Trump and it is only a matter of time. What's bizarre is why Trump Jr released that email chain. He said transparency but it's not transparency if you reveal something that someone else told you they were going to reveal. If you kept silent before you knew this then you would go on keeping silent and so it was not transparency. But why not let the Times release the info and then claim it is fake news? Just play his dad's slimeball games. He hung himself. He proved himself, his father and all trump surrogates are liars.

In other new, McConnell has just announced there will be no healthcare vote because John McCain is recovering in the hospital from eye surgery. This would weaken the vote, he says. But for which side? Was McCain going to vote yes on it? Come on, McConnell, you delayed the vote because you knew it would not pass. There were two definite no votes but that would only result in a tie and Pence would then vote in favor of the Senate healthcare plan. So there were more than two just as every has pundit insisted. This was a convenient excuse to put off the vote that certainly would have failed.

Ok, so McCain comes back from his surgery. He votes to debate the latest republican healthcare bill which has almost no differences from the earlier one that failed. The debate vote passes 51-50. Trump is SO pleased with himself that he takes a victory lap in Ohio at a speech where he even asks the crowd if he should have his likeness carved onto Mt. Rushmore. He also claimed the crowd size "broke all records." Apparently, Trump is thinking he's got this thing licked.

Before that, he gave an utterly atrocious speech in front of a captive audience of boyscouts where he spoke very little of scout values and being a productive citizen (of course, what would he know about that?), instead he spoke once again of his great, amazing win over Hillary Clinton (he reminds me of Al Bundy from "Married With Children" who just can't shut up about his 4 touchdowns in one game against Polk High), that this crowd was a record-setter, he threatened to fire Tom Price if the healthcare package didn't go through, urged the scouts to boo Barack Obama (they did) and regaled them with tales of meeting up with some tycoon at a cocktail party--12 yo kids. Even more disturbing, some of the scout leaders were giddily applauding all this rambling stupidity. However, many parents that were present were furious. Does this man have no decency? they asked. The answer would be no.

So McCain returns to Congress and says he won't vote for the bill. Then he votes in favor of the bill. Doesn't matter, it failed. So yesterday they vote on a straight repeal with no replacement. This time McCain votes no as do six others.

Now you would think even someone as cement-headed as Trump would realize it's hopeless. Instead, he once again takes to Twitter to attack Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and, through his Secretary of the Interior, Ryan Zinke, threatens to pull out all the economy-boosting businesses going on in Alaska as punishment.

So, now, we're going to do this again. This time we're going for "skinny repeal" where the employer mandate, the penalty for not having health insurance and some of the taxes collected from it will be stripped away. They're hoping with that surgeon-like precision to hit Obamacare in its most vulnerable area and bring it down. Some think skinny repeal may pass if for no other reason than that Congress is sick to death of voting on healthcare and will pass it just to shut Trump's ass up because you KNOW he won't quit until he gets what he wants. Trump is like a child who wants a certain toy and mommy and daddy said no so he'll just throw tantrums for as long as it takes to break them down and force them to give in. See, Trump just can't stand to lose. He MUST win each and every time! If he doesn't win, he will NEVER stop whining about it until everyone around him is crazy from listening to him.

I will predict that the skinny repeal will not pass. The hold-out senators didn't hold out this long just to be give in now. They don't want to tamper with the ACA because their states are dependent on it and on the Medicaid expansion. Their constituents (many of whom voted for Trump because he promised to abolish the ACA even though their livelihoods depend on it) are now pressuring these Congressmen and governors not to abolish the ACA or they will be voted out. I doubt these politicians want to fuck with it in any way and end up destroying it in their state because there will be hell to pay for that. They want it left alone. Just leave it alone. It's working so don't fuck with it!!!

If and when the skinny repeal fails, I wonder what Trump will do next because you know he won't give up on it. He just has to be able to tell everyone, "I WON!!!!!!!" He just has to!

On top of this, Trump, for some reason only he knows, issued a Twitter statement yesterday that all transsexuals are hereby no longer allowed to serve the military. He did not make clear if that meant that those currently serving will be allowed to finish their enlistments. As usual, Trump issues a blanket order without any thought of how it should be implemented. After all, that's some flunky's problem. The reason Trump gave is that transgender personnel are costing too much when, in fact, they are costing us very little. There is some talk that he is doing this in a desperate attempt to find funds for his wall. All he has gotten thus far is $1.6 billion which is woefully short. Hey, here's an idea: MAKE MEXICO PAY FOR IT!!!! Anyway, this ban is destined to wind up in the courts where I predict it will fail.

Meanwhile, the Trump-Russia investigation continues. Trump continues to do something I have never seen before and never thought I ever would see--berating and insulting his own attorney-general. Trump is just so furious that Sessions recused himself from the investigation. For those who still believe there is nothing to the accusations of collusion, ask yourselves why would Trump be so pissed at Sessions for recusing himself over FAKE NEWS. Because it isn't fake. He has openly mulled over firing Robert Mueller and pardoning himself and his family. Right but there are nothing to these accusations--right, gotcha! Many of the republicans in Congress are very upset with Trump's treatment of Sessions calling it disgraceful and unbecoming of a president. Well, maybe you should stop kissing his flabby ass then!