Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:29 am





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high! 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 243
Thanks: 2
Thanked: 24 times in 23 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
I just saw this on The Ayn Rand Institute's website:

Quote:
Teachers Demand Rand!
Monday, August 26, 2013
By: Kurt Kramer

Ayn Rand's Novels Ordered in Record Numbers by High School Teachers - Rand's novella Anthem set for a Historic 75th Year

IRVINE, Calif.—The Ayn Rand Institute announces that its “Books to Teachers” program has set a new record. Over 418,000 books were ordered by high school teachers in the 2012-2013 school year, edging out 2011-2012’s previous all-time high.

The ARI Books to Teachers program, now in its 11th year, has sent over 2,800,000 books to teachers throughout North America. Teachers who request Rand’s novels agree to teach them to their students, and ARI provides teacher’s guides to those who wish to use them.

All of Ayn Rand’s four novels are available to teachers, but Rand’s novella Anthem has been by far the most popular title. ARI has given away over 1,600,000 copies of Anthem since the program first began in 2002.

2013 is the 75th anniversary of the publication of Anthem, and this year sees the story’s arrival at New York City’s Baryshnikov Arts Center. An off-Broadway play of Anthem, adapted for the stage by Jeff Britting, will run for a limited, ten-week engagement. http://www.anthemtheplay.com


_________________
"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
- Cyril Connolly

My seven published books are available for purchase, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/Steven-L.-Sheppard/e/B00E6KOX12


Last edited by Mr A on Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:50 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7042
Location: Da U.P.
Thanks: 1072
Thanked: 2065 times in 1657 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Teachers demand for Rand all-time high!
What do we call this trend? Plutocracy rising?

:P


_________________
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams


Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:54 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5804
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2257
Thanked: 2192 times in 1659 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
Ayn Rand does not support plutocracy, which is rule by money. Rather, she argues that people of talent should be encouraged and rewarded in a free market. The role of government in a Rand type capitalist system is to ensure rule of law, subtly different from plutocracy which enforces class prejudice and division. I find it interesting that Rand gets mistaken for a plutocrat, when Atlas Shrugged provides a strong moral argument against the corruption of plutocracy, described as the immoral use of wealth to buy the government.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:01 am
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: May 2013
Posts: 246
Thanks: 44
Thanked: 82 times in 70 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
This was a woman who watched her “wealthy” family lose everything when the Bolshevik Revolution happened.

I think that would make any person a tad bit upset.

I'm not a fan of laissez-faire capitalism, but I think when criticizing Rand people need to take into consideration what she witnessed and experienced.



Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:14 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7042
Location: Da U.P.
Thanks: 1072
Thanked: 2065 times in 1657 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
Quote:
Ayn Rand does not support plutocracy, which is rule by money. Rather, she argues that people of talent should be encouraged and rewarded in a free market. The role of government in a Rand type capitalist system is to ensure rule of law, subtly different from plutocracy which enforces class prejudice and division. I find it interesting that Rand gets mistaken for a plutocrat, when Atlas Shrugged provides a strong moral argument against the corruption of plutocracy, described as the immoral use of wealth to buy the government.


From where I'm sitting, the idea that money can be effectively separated from government is a fantasy. Perhaps when we alter our genes so that the desire for power is no longer a part of our politicians psychology. Or when we hand the reigns over to AI.

The sort of idealist future that Objectivism portrays is similar to where we're at now, only worse. Some of the changes would be for the better, but some would be for the worse. Inequality would be much greater, and all the injustices that follow it would be worse. An eternal chess game of business interests finding ways to nickel and dime the consuming populace, with the government regulators always one step behind.

If talent was all that was required, I'd be ecstatic. But what most people refuse to admit is a great deal of success is a crap chute. Hard work and talent is necessary, but not sufficient. There are plenty of hard working talented people who are being crapped on daily by failures of the system.


_________________
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams


Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:15 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 243
Thanks: 2
Thanked: 24 times in 23 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
Interbane wrote: "From where I'm sitting, the idea that money can be effectively separated from government is a fantasy."

In LFC, currency, money, would be privatized. No Federal Reserve, it would be abolished.


_________________
"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
- Cyril Connolly

My seven published books are available for purchase, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/Steven-L.-Sheppard/e/B00E6KOX12


Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:20 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7042
Location: Da U.P.
Thanks: 1072
Thanked: 2065 times in 1657 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
I was referring to human nature.

What's worse is, if there is no throttle on business, there will never be such a thing as 'the common good'. It is not a byproduct of LFC. A fraction of a percent of people will live like kings, and the rest will live in poverty.


_________________
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams


Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:38 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 243
Thanks: 2
Thanked: 24 times in 23 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
I dislike the expression of living like a king, but Rearden would not be wealthy long if there weren't people willing to purchase his metal. He'd either go out of business or sell for a price others are more willing to buy his metal for.

Rearden:


Quote:
I do not want my attitude to be misunderstood. I shall be glad to state it for the record. I am in full agreement with the facts of everything said about me in the newspapers— with the facts, but not with the evaluation. I work for nothing but my own profit— which I make by selling a product they need to men who are willing and able to buy it. I do not produce it for their benefit at the expense of mine, and they do not buy it for my benefit at the expense of theirs; I do not sacrifice my interests to them nor do they sacrifice theirs to me; we deal as equals by mutual consent to mutual advantage— and I am proud of every penny that I have earned in this manner. I am rich and I am proud of every penny I own. I made my money by my own effort, in free exchange and through the voluntary consent of every man I dealt with— the voluntary consent of those who employed me when I started, the voluntary consent of those who work for me now, the voluntary consent of those who buy my product. I shall answer all the questions you are afraid to ask me openly. Do I wish to pay my workers more than their services are worth to me? I do not. Do I wish to sell my product for less than my customers are willing to pay me? I do not. Do I wish to sell it at a loss or give it away? I do not. If this is evil, do whatever you please about me, according to whatever standards you hold. These are mine. I am earning my own living, as every honest man must. I refuse to accept as guilt the fact of my own existence and the fact that I must work in order to support it. I refuse to accept as guilt the fact that I am able to do it and do it well. I refuse to accept as guilt the fact that I am able to do it better than most people— the fact that my work is of greater value than the work of my neighbors and that more men are willing to pay me. I refuse to apologize for my ability— I refuse to apologize for my success— I refuse to apologize for my money. If this is evil, make the most of it. If this is what the public finds harmful to its interests, let the public destroy me. This is my code— and I will accept no other. I could say to you that I have done more good for my fellow men than you can ever hope to accomplish— but I will not say it, because I do not seek the good of others as a sanction for my right to exist, nor do I recognize the good of others as a justification for their seizure of my property or their destruction of my life. I will not say that the good of others was the purpose of my work— my own good was my purpose, and I despise the man who surrenders his. I could say to you that you do not serve the public good— that nobody’s good can be achieved at the price of human sacrifices— that when you violate the rights of one man, you have violated the rights of all, and a public of rightless creatures is doomed to destruction. I could say to you that you will and can achieve nothing but universal devastation— as any looter must, when he runs out of victims. I could say it, but I won’t. It is not your particular policy that I challenge, but your moral premise. If it were true that men could achieve their good by means of turning some men into sacrificial animals, and I were asked to immolate myself for the sake of creatures who wanted to survive at the price of my blood, if I were asked to serve the interests of society apart from, above and against my own— I would refuse. I would reject it as the most contemptible evil, I would fight it with every power I possess, I would fight the whole of mankind, if one minute were all I could last before I were murdered, I would fight in the full confidence of the justice of my battle and of a living being’s right to exist. Let there be no misunderstanding about me. If it is now the belief of my fellow men, who call themselves the public, that their mood requires victims, then I say: The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!”
The crowd burst into applause


_________________
"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
- Cyril Connolly

My seven published books are available for purchase, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/Steven-L.-Sheppard/e/B00E6KOX12


Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:00 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7042
Location: Da U.P.
Thanks: 1072
Thanked: 2065 times in 1657 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
Quote:
The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!


I this twisted version of an economic moral compass, you'd have a few people living like kings, not apologizing for it, and the rest living in poverty. A more extreme version of the inequality we see today.

I'm not in favor of 'equalization'. We should reward people for their contributions. The problem is that with increased leverage, those who make more money can put themselves into a position to be compensated for more than they contribute. I see no way around this trend, it's intrinsic to a market economy. So, wealth will always pool upward disproportionately to contribution. I see no way to counteract this trend other than progressive taxation.

Reardon should apologize for his lack of insight. Rand apparently wasn't able to see the negative unintended consequences of her ideology.


_________________
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams


Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:17 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 243
Thanks: 2
Thanked: 24 times in 23 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
I see nothing morally or legally wrong with someone selling a product at the price they want to, to whom they want to, and people that are willing to purchase the product at said price if they are willing to. No force was used. All voluntary associations. Only when the government steps in and said to whom you sell, at what price, the minimum to pay your employees - is it morally wrong, and would not be legal to do in LFC. Rands LFC is opposed to the use.of such force in human relationships:

Rand:

Quote:
Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man’s rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man’s right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control.


_________________
"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
- Cyril Connolly

My seven published books are available for purchase, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/Steven-L.-Sheppard/e/B00E6KOX12


Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:26 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7042
Location: Da U.P.
Thanks: 1072
Thanked: 2065 times in 1657 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
Quote:
I see nothing morally or legally wrong with someone selling a product at the price they want to, to whom they want to, and people that are willing to purchase the product at said price if they are willing to.


That sounds great, it's a good sound bite. The issue is that the real world doesn't work they way we wish it did. There is leverage in the market that is largely ignored because it is too complex to quantify. For example, look at the fees charged to business owners by Visa/MC/American Express. It puts the business owner in a position where they are hard pressed to generate revenue without doing business with these companies. Some of the fees border on the draconian, and are far greater compensation than the service provided would dictate. But the CC companies have leverage, and use it to their advantage.

That's an obvious example, meanwhile the majority of leverage would be too subtle to see, all across the market.



With every product or service, there will be a number of externalities. Objectivism says that negative externalities should be prosecuted when they can be defined as physical force. When we start playing with definitions, the lawyers will be the winners. The line of demarcation will always rest in favor of businesses, and the grey area of harm to consumers will be a great deal larger than it is now.

Another point on externalities is that penalizing a business after the fact does not undo the damage done to the consumer. Lead is banned in paint for good reason. It is much less costly to regulate paint than to have continuous lawsuits against start-ups that knowingly sell hazardous products. This point is amplified by the fact that without concerted effort, the 'public' will fall further and further behind in identifying potential hazards. Lead is obvious, but what of the millions of other hazards that are pre-emptively regulated.


_________________
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams


The following user would like to thank Interbane for this post:
Chris OConnor
Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:51 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: May 2013
Posts: 246
Thanks: 44
Thanked: 82 times in 70 posts
Gender: None specified
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
Interbane wrote:
There is leverage in the market that is largely ignored because it is too complex to quantify. For example, look at the fees charged to business owners by Visa/MC/American Express. It puts the business owner in a position where they are hard pressed to generate revenue without doing business with these companies.


And, people wonder why some gas stations and stores have a two dollar limit on a patron using their credit card.

Let's say you want a bottle of water that cost $1.00.

You pay with your credit card and are informed by the clerk you must make a purchase of at least $2.00.

So, you buy two bottles of water instead of one to meet the requirement.

It's a choice yes but still not right.

The answer is demanding these companies not require store owners to pay fees for card swiping machines that the companies need to conduct business.

We never asked these companies to go into money lending and the store owner never asked for the machines.

This is a prime example of “push” mentality. And, it needs to be stopped!



Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:42 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 243
Thanks: 2
Thanked: 24 times in 23 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
It is right.

It doesn't need stopped by governmental intervention .

Here's what you can do: use cash, go elsewhere.


_________________
"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
- Cyril Connolly

My seven published books are available for purchase, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/Steven-L.-Sheppard/e/B00E6KOX12


Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:35 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7042
Location: Da U.P.
Thanks: 1072
Thanked: 2065 times in 1657 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Demand for Rand among teachers @ all-time high!
Quote:
This is a prime example of “push” mentality. And, it needs to be stopped!


My example was directed towards the store owners. They have no option but to accept the fees or lose customers. This is an example of the leverage that is so difficult to quantify. The cumulative trend of this leverage all across the market is that money will flow upward. Without any method to counteract this upward drift, riches will accumulate at the top and stay at the top. Mathematically, it leaves a smaller and smaller share for everyone else. Poverty would increase dramatically.

An utopian society may be a an unacheivable ideal, but we can do a lot better than Objectivism.

Quote:
It is right.


I don't see it as a dichotomy. Unless you think morality is black and white, and everything fits neatly in it's place.

But I think you have a sense of the ethical shortcomings in the example. The difference is, you believe the market alone can solve it. If "pushing" costs onto customers is wrong, the market will take care of it because people will take their business elsewhere. If the tactic is acceptable, then customers will continue to spend their money there.


_________________
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams


Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:21 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

Announcements 

• Promote Your Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:33 pm

• Promote Your Non-Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:18 pm



Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
How To Promote Your Book





BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2019. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank