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Wilde moving away from a strictly Christian interpretation

#65: Mar. - April 2009 (Fiction)
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Penelope

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I've read TPODG twice, and there are not many books that I want to read twice because, there are always so many others waiting. So it must be more than just a gothic horror story.

I admire Oscar Wilde for his wit and sensitivity. I thought Stephen Fry was superb in portraying him in the film 'Oscar'.

Wrt the dilemma caused by the guilt, thrust upon homosexuals by society's disapproval, of what, to them, is a natural state of being, I think that those of us, who are aware of falling short of what is approved of, (and that is all of us) find solace in such sensitive explorations of 'the human condition'.

There is a wonderful film called 'Peter's Friends' with Stephen Fry, and it is a sensitive exploration of just this subject. That is, Our vanity, our need for love (sometimes at any price).

But I don't think that our desire to be loved is evil and dark. We are, often, initially loved for our appearance. In a homosexual relationship, I think perhaps the appearance, takes more priority than in a heterosexual one.

But after all, to a large extent, we are what we appear.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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Thrillwriter

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Pen wrote

But after all, to a large extent, we are what we appear.
In the same sense ... we hear and interpret what we want to hear. As far as TPoDG is concerned, I think we all take what we want from the literature. Homosexuality, religous conotations, good vs. evil, etc...

As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so too, interpretation is in the mind of the listener.
"A good friend can tell you what is the matter with you in a minute. He may not seem such a good friend after telling." - Arthur Brisbane
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Penelope

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Thrillwriter:
As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so too, interpretation is in the mind of the listener.


Every eye forms its own beauty, is another way to say it. I suppose we interpret what we see, read, hear from our own life experience and from our own personalities/temperaments.

It is wonderful though, is it not, when we read or hear something that resonates and rings true to our own experiences.

It is good to talk/communicate.....mostly. It is a privilidge. But how often I agonise, wondering, Have I said too little? Have I said too much? Well, that is the skill of a great writer. They just say it right. I wish..... :smile:
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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Boheme
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Back from New York and

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no manuscripts on display at the Morgan Museum :angry: I was really looking forward to seeing what, if any, notes Wilde had written in the margins of TPoDG, but, it was not to be. The Morgan, as every other museum, rotates its collection on a regular basis and there was a visiting collection of drawings and prints on until mid-April, after which the manuscripts will be back in their usual spots. Oh well.

I have at least started the book (!), and am fascinated by it. There are such great lines in it. I'm only about 1/3 of the way through, and so far, am not particularly sympathetic to Dorian Gray's character. Perhaps that will change. Lord Henry is omnipresent and Basil seems almost a peripheral character, at this point at least. There are fairly large doses of anti-Semitism and class-ism in the book along with the misogyny, so it certainly gives those of us reading from the vantage point of the 21st century plenty over which to feel perturbed/angered/superior :D Lots to discuss, for sure! Each generation has its own prejudices and "-isms". Our 21st century attitude towards beauty and youth is not much changed from that of Wilde's generation. What if Dorian had had botox and plastic surgery available to him?

I am enjoying everyone's comments immensely, which may be doing a disservice to my reading of the novel, but I'm too curious and can't resist logging on to find out what's been said :smile:

Off to read some more now!
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Gem
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Manifesto for aesthetics

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Thrillwriter wrote:

[/quote] TPODG is.... a manifesto for Wilde's beloved aesthetics movement.

Do you think it really is? Or could it be more of a debate about the movement. The outcome of the book is not a positive one for those who are concerned about beauty or those who think anything is more important than simple human emotion.

As you said it is a book that can be read from a variety of viewpoints. Do you think any one viewpoint is more important than any other? Or do you think it is a book that is simply meant to present a lot of different viewpoints so they can all be discussed and debated as we are doing!?

Gem
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Gem:
Or do you think it is a book that is simply meant to present a lot of different viewpoints so they can all be discussed and debated as we are doing!?
I think Oscar wrote it for our entertainment and edification, with a lot of showing off of his sophistication in the background....'cos he seems to have been like that. But I still love him.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

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This discussion has a lot of lively participation and interesting perspectives. People were concerned that it wouldn't happen, but it has.

One idea we could explore is that the painting could be seen as a metatext or figure for the text itself, a screen on which the author can project the introspective self-examination he makes around issues of morality versus beauty, what is presented to the world versus what is known to one's own conscience; it could be the artifice by which one conceals "sins" in plain sight, thereby transfoming what at first seem to be character defects into an object that has value.

Through the vessel of art (like the painting in the story and like the story itself) even the ugly, difficult, shadow side of life can be safely explored, contained and expressed. This constitutes a kind of alchemy of the individual as artist or magician. In alchemy the base metals are transformed into gold and the alchemist finds the philosopher's stone which grants immortality (like eternal youth).

One of the features of fiction is that it allows the creation of a provisional space where we can act out our evil without doing real harm, as when playing a villain in theater. I think Oscar Wilde revered the ornamental and beautiful as much as he did based on a deep understanding of its power, much as he liked to make light of it as a deflection of attention from its seriousness, as all good sleight of hand artists must do for their own protection. What is ornamental is pretty, but it is a mistake to underestimate it on that account.
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I was glancing over the past few pages and I noticed something - it mentions the unique mirror that Lord Henry gave Dorian. I remember it being referenced earlier in the book.

We've already pointed out that both Lord Henry and Basil both tried to influence Dorian. Henry encouraged him to value youth and beauty and the outward appearance, while Basil encouraged him to remain pure and innocent at heart. And they both gave him gifts that reflected their wishes for him.

Henry gave him the mirror, which showed his looks, and Basil gave him the painting, which (unbeknownst to the painter) showed Dorian the state of his soul. Wilde uses these objects to represent the influences and intentions of each of the two men.
(PS I think this is called metonymy - does anyone know?)
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gracefullgirll wrote:
Henry gave him the mirror, which showed his looks, and Basil gave him the painting, which (unbeknownst to the painter) showed Dorian the state of his soul. Wilde uses these objects to represent the influences and intentions of each of the two men.
(PS I think this is called metonymy - does anyone know?)
Oh you are not sixteen! (Hyperbole; I don't really mean it, but am exaggerating my astonishment at your precociosity -- maybe you can tell me if I've spelled that right, gracefullgirll).

"Metonymy," as I understand it means a part standing for the whole, as in, "A sail! A sail on the horizon," or "He has a fine head on his shoulders," meaning what-all he does with his fine head, mind, brain. But it also means, a meta-text within a text that stands for the whole text, which I was just talking about above your post. The painting and the mirror may be metonymic to their givers' intentions, as you suggest, and they can be metonyms for the text as a whole.

If you want one more fancy term for this kind of thing -- although I'll bet you already know it, you smartypants -- there is always "mise-en-abyme," (meez uhn ah BEEM) which means a figure inside the text that operates like a miniature of the text itself. Like Shakespeare's play-within-the-play in Hamlet. This term comes from Heraldry and in that context it literally meant when a coat of arms has a picture of the whole coat of arms inside it somewhere, with hints of miniature coats of arms inside that, advancing to Tiny Infinity.

Tiny Infinity is the mythical place I just discovered where great thinkers who are well-educated and use their knowledge in sophisticated analyses get younger and younger until one discovers, alarmingly, that they were already way ahead of one when they were born. I hope you don't take this as ageist and patronizing. I truly am just impressed, gracefullgirll. I was quite a bit less sophisticated when I was your age and I thought I was pretty smart.
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Penelope

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Do you think peoples' characters show in their faces?

I do, because often people may never have been beautiful like Dorian, but if they are kind or warm and affectionate, it shows in their faces eventually, and as they get older, they develope 'nice' faces. Not beautiful, but nice just to look at. I was always discouraged from using the word nice.....but I think it is a good way to describe some of the faces I love and have loved.

My OH has a kind face and he is a very kind man. When I went back to my school reunion a few years ago, I was surprised to see that many of the 'girls' (Ha! in their fifties then) who were in my year, had really changed. Some who were quite plain had become quite strikingly attractive and one or two who had been real glamour pusses, had begun to look quite harrowed.

The boys didn't seem to have changed at all. They had the same personalities as I remembered....the silly ones were still funny and the serious ones were still serious. All seemed to have grown more portly...to put it kindly. But the really nice ones, had 'nice' faces.

I know that I usually look quite vacant and puzzled.....which is often how I feel. :cry:
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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