But you know, youkrst, we could possibly look at this as a not exorbitant price to pay to keep the compromise going. We've always had, from the very early days of the republic, this kind of general public piety in evidence. I know that "in God we trust" wasn't added to coins until 1864, and "under God" wasn't added to the pledge until the 1950s, but before that it was still very common for God to be mentioned publicly as a figurehead. It seems okay to me. Barack Obama came out for the recognition of nonbelievers in his 2009 inaugural address, yet he ends his speeches with "God bless America" just as any politician feels he has to.youkrst wrote:one nation under god sheesh it's a crap hand to be dealt. maybe it takes millenia to get out of some messes.Do we have to take the religion and nationalism?
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Are You Millian or Durkheimian?
- DWill
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Re: Are You Millian or Durkheimian?
- Robert Tulip
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Re: Are You Millian or Durkheimian?
Great question, especially with the Putnam question of social capital, and Durkheim's analysis of the role of ritual and loyalty and tradition and belonging in building community.
JS Mill was a great thinker, but he made his wealth selling opium to China for the East India Company, on the supposedly fine liberal principle that it was up to individual Chingas to decide if they wished to destroy their lives in smoking dens. Mill's philosophy conveniently ignored how his fine liberality was supported by the origin of the phrase "gunboat diplomacy", as the British Navy put China on the rack to defend Mill's ethical right to profit from their misery. Fine rhetoric can conceal racist results. Individualism conceals a multitude of sins.
John Stuart Mill was the biggest smack pusher in all human history, but hey, surely anything is forgivable for the patron saint of liberal individualism? As the sage Borat put it, Not.
JS Mill was a great thinker, but he made his wealth selling opium to China for the East India Company, on the supposedly fine liberal principle that it was up to individual Chingas to decide if they wished to destroy their lives in smoking dens. Mill's philosophy conveniently ignored how his fine liberality was supported by the origin of the phrase "gunboat diplomacy", as the British Navy put China on the rack to defend Mill's ethical right to profit from their misery. Fine rhetoric can conceal racist results. Individualism conceals a multitude of sins.
John Stuart Mill was the biggest smack pusher in all human history, but hey, surely anything is forgivable for the patron saint of liberal individualism? As the sage Borat put it, Not.
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- DWill
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Re: Are You Millian or Durkheimian?
Is that on the level about J.S. Mill? I had no idea about his backstory.
- Robert Tulip
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Re: Are You Millian or Durkheimian?
"Born in London in 1806, son of James Mill, philosopher, economist and senior official in the East India Company. Mill led an active career as an administrator in the East India Company from which he retired only when the Company's administrative functions in India were taken over by the British government following the Mutiny of 1857. http://www.utilitarianism.com/jsmill.htm
Mill knew all about it. He was a corresponding secretary of the East India Company, and was following it all closely. The purpose of the expansion of British power over India, as he knew, was to try to obtain a monopoly over opium so that England could somehow break into the Chinese market. They couldn’t sell goods to China because, as they complained, Chinese goods were comparable and they didn’t want British goods. So the only way to break into the Chinese market was by gunboats and to force them to become a nation of opium addicts at the point of a gun and by obtaining a monopoly of the opium trade – didn’t quite make it, American merchants got a piece of it – they could compel Chinese to become opium addicts and gain access to Chinese markets. And in fact he was writing right at the time of the Second Opium War [from 1856 to 1860], which achieved that. Britain established the world’s most extensive narco-trafficking enterprise; there’s never been anything remotely like it. Not only were they able to break into China for the first time, but also the profits from opium supported the Raj, the costs of the British Navy, and provided very significant capital which fuelled the industrial revolution in England. Mill was very aware of this. Had to be. But nevertheless his picture is that since England is an angelic power we should help the barbarians who can’t solve their own affairs. http://www.chomsky.info/talks/20060119.htm
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Re: Are You Millian or Durkheimian?
phew, lucky i didn't put up a Mill poster
it's like finding out Pol Pot preferred a strat to a les paul.
- DWill
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Re: Are You Millian or Durkheimian?
Maybe you can hang the Mill poster after all. But we shouldn't hang Mill himself without more evidence than Noam Chomsky's vague slander of him in a talk he gave. Chomsky is provocative, but who would rely on him for scholarship? I need to consult a biography of Mill to find out whether in his work with the East India Company he was closely involved with the company's opium trade.