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Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15) 
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
Saffron wrote:
I've been thinking about the discussion of Portrait of an Artist and I think we should set a day and time so that it is somewhat of a live discussion. I think this will be more satisfying than waiting for hours or days for a reply. Of course the discussion can go on past whatever day and time we select, but at least we will have a little bit of live action.


I agree. Maybe Chris can set it up as a BT discussion for June-July. Is that too soon?


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Thu May 09, 2013 2:28 pm
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
Actually, I'm going to be on a 9-day kayak starting June 15. July-Aug would be a better time frame for me, but you guys can do it anytime and I'll catch up.


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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
We'll wait for you, geo, so kayak away. That sounds really nice.



Thu May 09, 2013 9:35 pm
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
http://wnca.org/paddle/


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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
geo wrote:
http://wnca.org/paddle/

Very cool! Mid July will work well for me also, as I will be on the beach in Spain from late June until the first week of July! Let's pick a day during the week of 7/7-13 and a time in the evening (unless it is a Sat or Sun) to be on BT at the same time to kick off the discussion. Right now I am thinking that a Sunday might be easiest for everyone.



Fri May 10, 2013 10:24 am
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
geo, I know I'm on thin ice, but any information on who the French broad was? Regardless, the trip looks great, and I will say that the name of the river is appropriate because though a woman is beautiful, nothing is more beautiful than a beautiful river. Is that statement even disputable?

Any outdoor adventure is a good one, though. My main one this summer looks like a bike ride along the Great Allegheny Passage trail, Pittsburgh to Cumberland, MD. The rivers along the trail are the Monongahela, Youghiogheny, and Casselman.

I'll read "Portrait" sometime along the way and maybe even get into Ulysses.



Fri May 10, 2013 6:41 pm
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
DWill wrote:
geo, I know I'm on thin ice, but any information on who the French broad was?


The French Broad is more of a dignified, classic kind of beautiful river. The French Chick, on the other hand, is wilder, younger with stretches of rapids, sometimes almost unnegotiable. :mrgreen:

I used to do a fair amount of kayaking when we lived in Florida, but that was in the Gulf. This nine-day thing sort of terrifies me. We'll do about 12 miles a day and just pull up and make camp every night. If I make it though the whole trip, I will see the entire French Broad. It should be an amazing experience. The French Broad has very little in the way of rapids, so it's more or less just floating down the river and seeing the sights.

That bike ride sounds pretty amazing too. I'm actually from the eastern shore of Md. by the way. The missus too.


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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
Nine days is a good long stretch. There will be a rhythm that will set in eventually that will be be very pleasant, I'll bet. Ah, the elements. We do really appreciate our luxuries after getting back from trips like this, and even the least affluent of us has them.

I live about a mile from the Shenandoah. It's of course fabled in song and story, but tragically you have to apply Robert Frost to it: what to make of a diminished thing. Still beautiful, but also an indictment of our effects on riparian environments. The protections in place for the French Broad look impressive and are inspiring. I hope they're effective.

But to connect obliquely with "The Dead," my hope for Gabriel Conroy is that he changes his summer plans of cycling on the Continent with his chappies and heads to the west of Ireland with Gretta, and for Gretta. He shouldn't sign up with Miss Ivors' group pf tourists, that would be a mistake. He should experience the natural beauty of the region, doing a lot of walking, as well as getting to know, as equals, the people of the area, especially Gretta's people.



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Sat May 11, 2013 7:42 am
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
DWill wrote:
Nine days is a good long stretch. There will be a rhythm that will set in eventually that will be be very pleasant, I'll bet. Ah, the elements. We do really appreciate our luxuries after getting back from trips like this, and even the least affluent of us has them.

I live about a mile from the Shenandoah. It's of course fabled in song and story, but tragically you have to apply Robert Frost to it: what to make of a diminished thing. Still beautiful, but also an indictment of our effects on riparian environments. The protections in place for the French Broad look impressive and are inspiring. I hope they're effective.

But to connect obliquely with "The Dead," my hope for Gabriel Conroy is that he changes his summer plans of cycling on the Continent with his chappies and heads to the west of Ireland with Gretta, and for Gretta. He shouldn't sign up with Miss Ivors' group pf tourists, that would be a mistake. He should experience the natural beauty of the region, doing a lot of walking, as well as getting to know, as equals, the people of the area, especially Gretta's people.

So true that life's luxuries are most appreciated after a bush trip. My 'luxuries' focus on food. I like a good steak with a nice beer or glass of wine and maybe chocolate cake.

I like your comment about Gabriel getting to know Gretta's people 'as equals'. I reflected on equality, that is gender equality and mutual respect, in a relationship, when Gabriel considers 'taking' his wife but then thinks that would be 'brutal'. Such an interesting description that struck me as quite telling of Gabriel's character. And he shows that he cares what she is thinking about, which is a clear sign of respect (although he is not too happy about her thoughts when he discovers them). My impression is that the sense of equality and respect that Gabriel has for his wife (setting aside his educated status) makes her sexier and much more attractive to him than she would be otherwise.

I think the discovery of Gretta's young love, Michael Furey, and moreso the profound effect that Michael's death had on Gretta, tests Gabriel's love for his wife. It's not really the best time to discover this, given his desires and intentions. But I think he reaches a new level of understanding after some struggle and I think we have to appreciate Gabriel for that very human struggle.

Gretta's experience with Michael also made me think about how important and dramatic young love can be in a person's life. I wonder if Gabriel will forever think that somehow he/they have to live up to the intensity of the Gretta/Michael relationship?



Sun May 12, 2013 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
I guess when we speculate on what happens to the characters after the story's over, that's when the writer has really made us care. At other times, we just shut the book. It's wishful thinking, of course, the arc we've chosen for these characters when they wake up the next morning. It might be that Gabriel shakes off the whole experience as induced by circumstances and continues on basically the same path. Joyce could have made that scenario work if he had chosen to extend the action. Such a defeat (as we'd see it) would be in keeping with the tenor of most of the stories in the book.

You're right that the revelation Gretta makes to Gabriel could set the bar uncomfortably high for Gabriel, in terms of loving someone so unreservedly. He had had a crashing letdown, having been carried away that evening by thoughts of the specialness of their lives together. Then he finds reason to fear that the specialness is all with him, not with her. Can his very delicate ego withstand that?



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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
It's been over fifteen years since I've read Dubliners, but "The Dead" is one of the stories that becomes part of you after you've read it. I'm a huge James Joyce fan and I place The Dead right behind Ulysses, Portrait of the Artist and Stephen Hero in my list of favourites. To me, Gabriel is such a cartoon - in the same sense that I view myself as a cartoon in certain moments of dissociation. He's so easy to relate to. He wanders around a party and tries to plug in here and there. He wants to be useful. Like many people at a party, he answers the inner spirit's invitation to become sentimental and by the end he's horny. I got the impression there was a loneliness he carried with him even before his wife shatters his idealized view of her and talks in ridiculous fashion about a past love. It's one of those stories that takes a lifetime to digest, which I think is why it's mentioned as one of the best examples of literature out there.


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Mon May 13, 2013 8:26 am
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
Thank you for that comment on the story. You really said a lot about it in a short space. I like the way you brought out a serio-comic quality that I hadn't picked up on. It's funny, I wouldn't have called Gretta's reminiscences ridiculous before watching John Huston's film. In that, the scene did seem over the top to me.



Mon May 13, 2013 6:13 pm
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
Saffron wrote:
geo wrote:
http://wnca.org/paddle/

Very cool! Mid July will work well for me also, as I will be on the beach in Spain from late June until the first week of July! Let's pick a day during the week of 7/7-13 and a time in the evening (unless it is a Sat or Sun) to be on BT at the same time to kick off the discussion. Right now I am thinking that a Sunday might be easiest for everyone.



:anyone?:
Hey and hello! Is anyone still interested in Portrait of An Artist as a Young Man? I plan to start reading by this weekend and would be interested in discussion in about a month.



Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:26 pm
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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
Saffron wrote:
Saffron wrote:
geo wrote:
http://wnca.org/paddle/

Very cool! Mid July will work well for me also, as I will be on the beach in Spain from late June until the first week of July! Let's pick a day during the week of 7/7-13 and a time in the evening (unless it is a Sat or Sun) to be on BT at the same time to kick off the discussion. Right now I am thinking that a Sunday might be easiest for everyone.



:anyone?:
Hey and hello! Is anyone still interested in Portrait of An Artist as a Young Man? I plan to start reading by this weekend and would be interested in discussion in about a month.


I'm about to start reading it too. Turns out I'm not going to go on the 9-day kayak, so we could start discussing it whenever.


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Post Re: Dubliners - "The Dead" (Story 15 of 15)
geo wrote:


:anyone?:
Hey and hello! Is anyone still interested in Portrait of An Artist as a Young Man? I plan to start reading by this weekend and would be interested in discussion in about a month.


I'm about to start reading it too. Turns out I'm not going to go on the 9-day kayak, so we could start discussing it whenever.[/quote]

I am still going to Spain, so can we start the discussion after the first week of July - I'd hate to miss any of it.



Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:10 pm
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