ant wrote: The whole what? what evidence is there for "the whole" and what experiments have confirmed the whole so as to locate a subset of it?

I have no idea what you're trying to ask. We have no idea if there are aliens. The whole "presumed" set of potential aliens. It's an if/then statement, and aliens are the "then". We can say something if we find a series of progressing prime numbers. Even then, it's an unknown. But at least we would have evidence another intelligent species exists. Although I'd prefer some fancy blueprints to alien technology.

You can participate in SETI by downloading software called Boinc and linking to the SETI@Home project. The software downloads raw data from Arecibo, the huge radiotelescope in Puerto Rico as well as sources elsewhere including the Southen hemisphere. The software analyzes the data in several modes and reports results back to the project. (PM me if you're interested and need help.)

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/index.php

Interbane asked Would you donate if you were a billionaire? I probably would, but I'm not sure. I'm not much of a gambler.

Paul G. Allen, a microsoft billionaire donated $11.5 million to help start the Allen Telescope Array. This was supposed to start with 42 receivers, 6 X 7 meter dishes as shown below and increase to 350 in phases. The project seems to be stalled at 42 instruments.



A MUCH larger radiotelescope project is in the works. The Square Kilometer Array will be split between South Africa and Australia. This will include several thousand 15 meter dishes and many more low-mid frequency receivers. Linking the two sites together could make the wide-band array work like one huge receiver with a diameter of, well whatever the distance is between South Africa and Australia. Not sure how much SETI work will be done with that system.

In chapter 2, Sagan discusses Einstein gravity waves, which may have a parallel with SETI.

However, in accord with our understanding of human fallibility, heeding the counsel that we may asymptotically approach the truth but will never fully reach it, scientists are today investigating regimes in which General Relativity may break down. For example, General Relativity predicts a startling phenominon called gravitational waves. They have never been detected directly. But if they do not exist there is something fundamentally wrong with General Relativity. Pulsars are rapidly rotating neutron starts whose flicker rates can now be measured to 15 decimal places. Two very dense pulsars in orbit around each other are predicted to radiate copious quantities of gravitational waves - which will in time slightly alter the orbits and rotation periods of the two stars.
pgs 33 - 34

Like signals from aliens, we still have not detected these gravitational waves. Should we stop looking, have we reached a cut-off date? Is this psuedo-science? Why would observing not be considered a necessary part of science?

The bolded section in the quote elegantly highlights a major difference between science and superstition or the supernatural.

By the way, also similar to SETI, you can participate in the search for Einstein gravity waves by downloading Boinc software and attaching to the following project. (PM me if interested and need help.)
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/
http://einstein.phys.uwm.edu/

Like signals from aliens we havent detected gravity waves?

Not a very good comparison.
Actually, its a horrible "this is like that" comparison.

lets all just think about it for awhile.

It's a valid comparison in that you stated because there has been "zero progress and zero evidence for over 20 years" on SETI, it is therefore not scientific. There has been the same level of progress on Einstein gravitational waves in a similar time period, yet I expect you would hesitate to declare that project non-scientific or pseudo-science.

Ant asked Is a hypothesis that produces nothing after 20 years still a scientific hypothesis? Maybe in your heart it still is. In the scientific community, it dies.

Wrong. Einstein gravitational waves and SETI are still scientific hypotheses and are active in the scientific community. Obviously there is nothing in the scientific method stating "You've got 20 years to prove it or it's dead!" We never would have found Higgs-Boson (and many other scientific confirmations or negations) with your standard.

I wonder what kind of pseudo-science, fantastical beliefs are in vogue today. What are today's unfounded beliefs that should be challenged?

Anything featured here. http://www.tmz.com/

DWill wrote:
Didn't I hear that Stephen Hawking doesn't think we should be looking for other intelligent life? If we draw attention to ourselves, we might be visited by an intelligent race that can't even fathom why our existence should be valued more than we value the existence of cockroaches.

Even if Hawking didn't think it; the fear is none the less a legitimate one that should be pondered as part of any possible scenario.

If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans. We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet.

Stephen Hawking
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Space/ ... d=10478157

Yeeeoch! Actually Hawking does not object to SETI as a search for or observation of signals, etc. He is warning against actively sending signals out seeking contact with ETs, quite a bit different. Although I gotta admit, if we ever do ID an advanced civilization elsewhere, it would be nearly impossible to resist the temptation to contact them...

I have to agree with youkrst. This book is on par with the last Sagan book I read in which it was largely filler without anything which made you glad you bought the book at all. This chapter was a complete dud for me. The people who buy Sagan's books are probably the ones that don't really need to read this kind of chapter - a little paragraph would have been sufficient.

Prez wrote:I have to agree with youkrst.

you might have me confused with ant there Prez. I'll take it as a compliment