Yikes! The pedophilia stuff is downright scary. I was getting sick to my stomach as I read the story of Laura at the end of the chapter. It's interesting that it is almost always patriarchal. The matriarchal type is so rare, it makes the news:

http://www.ibtimes.com/polygamy-remixed ... sy-1401521

Interesting point though about the adult, consensual polygamy. Certainly not to my taste, but I guess that it may work for others.

At first I was convinced that polygamy was simply a way for a man to have pleasure from many different vessels. But I think Fitz. makes a good point, men may choose women for different reasons. Some, yes, for pleasure, but, some for money, some for raising children, some for having children, maybe even one or two for emotional or intellectual reasons. I have watched "Sister Wives" and I am confused by the women this man has chosen, but maybe he has chosen each one for a different reason.

I can't watch that show anymore. The women are just sickening to me. However, they have all been raised in this world and they don't know any better, but, they have all been raised in this in this world, don't they want anything better?

yes, definitely some stomach churning stuff towards the end of ch.5 there.

incest, paedophilia, inbreeding, severe abuse etc etc

i wondered why that clusterfrap hadn't been cleaned up. i suppose it's problematic with it happening in closed off houses, sequestered communities etc

you'd think they'd do a leaflet drop from a helicopter with messages showing that it's not normal or acceptable behaviour so the kids would get a clue that they don't have to accept it, maybe a "get me the hell out of here" number... i hope things improve, it's a nightmare... jesus, someone needs to stop those sick mofos.

...and has often goaded government agencies to do their job and press charges when accusations of incest and abuse come to light.

pretty sad that goading is even necessary, typical though

do some small misdemeanor and get the nazi treatment while this crap is going down year after sickening year. that's corporate government for you.

youkrst wrote: you'd think they'd do a leaflet drop from a helicopter with messages showing that it's not normal or acceptable behaviour so the kids would get a clue that they don't have to accept it, maybe a "get me the hell out of here" number....

I'm sure anything of the sort would bring cries of outrage. After all, this is religiously based. Who decides who interferes with who's religion? I'd be willing to bet the participants would say the same thing about dropping leaflets onto a porn set, or brothel. Mmmmm.... maybe not.

Remember, many of the participants appear to be happy. There are many aspects of our current lives that we find unpleasant and wish we could escape from. If you only experience one way in life, you don't know anything different exists. The same can be said for the poor, etc.

This is a thorny subject and rightly so. The Mormons who still practice plural marriage cite not only the Book of Mormon, but the Bible (Old Testament), where Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon had multiple wives and/or concubines/handmaidens. Also, many other cultures still practice polygamy of one sort or another, e.g. Islam allows a man to have up to four wives.

My problem with the way the Mormons do it is HOW they do it. The victimization of children, the practical enslavement or women are only two of them.

Time for another personal (actually two) note: When I worked in Salt Lake City, my secretary was a Mormon, and she admitted to being descended from a polygamous line (her ancestor was not the 'first' wife). Also, at this time, I became friends with the United States Attorney. Before his appointment to that post, he had been a State District Judge in southern Utah (I think St. George). Any way, as a judge, he had been involved in the "Short Creek Raid," as it was known. Fitzgerald's description is in agreement with what I learned from him.

Footnote: If you look in the Hilldale, Utah/Colorado City Arizona telephone book you will find less than a dozen surnames.

Almost forgot; Warren Jeffs, who is mentioned in this chapter, had his last 'outpost' here in Texas; the Yearning for Zion ranch in Schleicher County, near the town of Eldorado.

ginof wrote:I'm sure anything of the sort would bring cries of outrage.

yeah i was particularly thinking of the extreme cases outlined in the book, where it's basically torture, non stop torture.

it seems many of the good old people with power are ok with not exerting every effort to stop the extreme cases.

ginof wrote: After all, this is religiously based.

i see what you mean but when you get to those extreme cases i think it goes beyond "religion" and becomes abuse, torture, vile.

ginof wrote:Who decides who interferes with who's religion?

again i think it's not a religious liberty issue if there is torture occuring, it's a human rights thing, it's just a plain human thing.

ginof wrote:Remember, many of the participants appear to be happy.

yeah i wasn't thinking of them at all, it was the victims of the extreme abuse that i was hoping might get some help.

i suppose most people simply don't want to know, couldn't bear to know, that such things happen, let alone formulate an effective way to do something about it.

Cattleman wrote:the "Short Creek Raid," as it was known.

thanks for that Cattleman, it did me good to see that at least some efforts had been made to look at the more extreme abuse.

youkrst: I see what you are saying. But if it really is non stop torture, incest, etc, we don't need to drop in leaflets, we need to send in the cops. Our laws should be helping us with that today.

As the author points out, at least some of the attempts to do that have ended poorly.

Joseph Smith was an 1800's Warren Jeffs, maybe worse. He was nothing more than pond scum with lack of authority to keep him in place. Today he would be in jail for life, along with Brigham Young and the rest. They got away with unscrupulous behavier.