Robert Tulip wrote:The term Gnostic is a complex and disputed one. I consider Saint Mark the greatest Gnostic, by which I mean that he grounded his faith in knowledge rather than belief, even while he presented belief as the ground for popular faith.

In the interview between Elaine Pagels and Miguel Connor linked by DWill above, the problem of multiple Gnosticisms is discussed, for example on whether the creation is good. If we think of Gnosis as the divine knowledge that supports Christian belief, we can begin to read the Gospels and the rest of the Bible in an allegorical framework that is compatible with modern science by asking in what sense knowledge of divinity is possible. In this regard, my opinion is that the orthodox canon mostly has a greater depth of spiritual wisdom than much Gnostic literature.

I do not think that Saint Mark intended for the inner church to take literally his stories about the historical Jesus. These stories rather had the political intent of producing traction for a mass movement, an outer church, aimed at the long game of destroying the moral legitimacy and divine mandate of Roman imperial rule. As far as Mark's intent is concerned, the literal use of his gospel through the suppression of the inner church by the outer church has the appearance of a slow accident.

DWill wrote:

we have basically no Christian literature except the Gospels for the half century or so after Paul, which is readily explained by the abundantly documented mass destruction of heretical literature on pain of death. That is a conspiracy.

Please tell me that Carrier doesn't accept this gap at face value as proof of destruction by enemies of divergent viewpoints. I'd have less respect for him as a historian if he does.

Early Church Fathers Quotes on Scripture Alone is final Authority
by Matt Slick
1. Scripture Alone is final Authority
1. Irenaeus, (130-202), “We have known the method of our salvation by no other means than those by whom the gospel came to us; which gospel they truly preached; but afterward, by the will of God, they delivered to us in the Scriptures, to be for the future the foundation and pillar of our faith,” (Adv. H. 3:1).
2. Clement of Alexandria (150?-213?), “They that are ready to spend their time in the best things will not give over seeking for truth until they have found the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves,” (Stromata 7:16:3).
3. Origen (185?-252), “No man ought, for the confirmation of doctrines, to use books which are not canonized Scriptures,” (Tract. 26 in Matt.).
4. St. Cyprian of Carthage (200?-258), “Whence comes this tradition? Does it descend from the Lord’s authority, or from the commands and epistles of the apostles? For those things are to be done which are there written . . . If it be commanded in the gospels or the epistles and Acts of the Apostles, then let this holy tradition be observed,” (Cyprian of Carthage, Ep. 74 ad Pompeium).
5. Athanasius (300?-375),
1. “The Holy Scriptures, given by inspiration of God, are of themselves sufficient toward the discovery of truth. (Orat. adv. Gent., ad cap.) The Catholic Christians will neither speak nor endure to hear anything in religion that is a stranger to Scripture; it being an evil heart of immodesty to speak those things which are not written,” (Athanasius, Exhort. ad Monachas).
2. "5. Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament. These are the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles and seven Catholic Epistles, fourteen Epistles of Pau, and the Revelation of John. 6 These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. (Athanasius, Festal Letter 39:5-6).
3. "Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things (Athanasius, De Synodis, 6).
6. Ambrose (340?-396), “How can we use those things which we do not find in the Holy Scriptures?” (Ambr. Offic., 1:23).
7. Cyril of Jerusalem (315?-386), “Not even the least of the divine and holy mysteries of the faith ought to be handed down without the divine Scriptures. Do not simply give faith to me speaking these things to you except you have the proof of what I say from the divine Scriptures. For the security and preservation of our faith are not supported by ingenuity of speech, but by the proofs of the divine Scriptures,” (Cat. 4).
8. Jerome (342?-420), “Those things which they make and find, as it were, by apostolical tradition, without the authority and testimony of Scripture, the word of God smites. (ad Aggai 1) As we deny not those things that are written, so we refuse those things that are not written. That God was born of a virgin we believe, because we read it; that Mary did marry after she was delivered we believe not, because we do not read it,” (Adv. Helvidium).
9. Basil (330-379), "Now I accept no newer creed written for me by other men, nor do I venture to propound the outcome of my own intelligence, lest I make the words of true religion merely human words; but what I have been taught by the holy Fathers, that I announce to all who question me. In my Church the creed written by the holy Fathers in synod at Nicea is in use." (To the Church of Antioch, Epistle 140:2).
10. Ambrose (340?-396), "Wherefore all other generations are strangers to truth; all the generations of heretics hold not the truth: the church alone, with pious affection, is in possession of the truth," (Commentary of Psalm 118,19).
11. Cyril of Jerusalem (315?-386), "But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 (A.D. 350).
12. Gregory of Nyssa (330-394), “And let no one interrupt me, by saying that what we confess should also be confirmed by constructive reasoning: for it is enough for proof of our statement, that the tradition has come down to us from our Fathers, handled on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them," (Against Eunomius, 4:6).

DWill wrote: He has a skeptic's duty to track down all the relevant facts and circumstances. A number of questions should be addressed before anyone arrives as such a conclusion. The first that comes to me is why is there nothing in the way of Christian literature, if there has been such a mass destruction by an orthodox power? Wouldn't we expect to find the right literature to have survived?

DWill wrote: claims of particular conspiracies, such as the one mentioned above, will impede its acceptance. This is so because of lack of evidence but also, in certain cases, because of lack of basic plausibility.

Flann 5 wrote: The historical evidence doesn't support this. You 'sceptics' need to be willing to question the assertions of Elaine Pagels also,and whether her 'reconstruction' of early Christian history is itself accurate or her thesis credible.

http://www.thirdmill.org/newfiles/mat_g ... agels.html

DWill wrote:That is something I'm willing to do, question her assertions. I haven't read The Gospel of Thomas, but am reading The Gnostic Gospels and haven't seen anything that makes me think she's reconstructing.

Flann wrote:Neither of these are satisfactory I think

Flann wrote:the impression I get is that those who liked these ideas applied them to the Christian teachings.

"Now the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made."

– Philo, "The Special Laws", I (81)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.