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Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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ant

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Re: Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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Why would you ask that question? What do you imagine our common lineage with fish, and all life on the planet, has anything at all to do with this question?
Is all that in the book???

I hope so because I'm counting on it as being my first introduction to evolution.

I'll let you know how it goes.
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Re: Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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This conversation makes me realize that now might be the right time to start some discussions with my 4-year old (almost 5) about evolution and the origin of the cosmos.
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Flann 5
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Re: Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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ant wrote:I would definitely be asking why do we eat fish then.
A follow up question about cousin monkey could be why do we harm them in labs if they are our cousins.

But I guess that's in a different book for 5 year olds.
Whatever the technicalities as Johnson outlined do we have to make a fine distinction to alleviate the problem of eating some descendants of our ancestors.

I imagine we do eat animals who are said to be in our lineage. Is that incorrect?
So a fish or whatever are actually in the lineage are they still evolving or not? Lets say there's a mass extinction event which changes the environment and lot's of new niches are suddenly available.

That would be an opportunity for plenty of evolution at least going by what is said of the past extinctions. So surviving fish or whatever could theoretically evolve into future humans in that scenario.

To be honest I'm not a vegetarian. The issue of animal experimentation for the medical benefit of humans is a difficult one. Some of them certainly seem to be extreme.

R.D. in wishing for a hybrid of ape/human to reconstruct a "Lucy" expresses misgivings about what he expects would be the miserable existence of such a creature.
He visualizes a time when such will be possible to engineer in a laboratory.

P.S. What do you make of this story?
http://www.ibtimes.com/peta-monkey-self ... ht-2109743
Last edited by Flann 5 on Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ant

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Re: Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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Flann 5 wrote:
ant wrote:I would definitely be asking why do we eat fish then.
A follow up question about cousin monkey could be why do we harm them in labs if they are our cousins.

But I guess that's in a different book for 5 year olds.
Whatever the technicalities as Johnson outlined do we have to make a fine distinction to alleviate the problem of eating some descendants of our ancestors.

I imagine we do eat animals who are said to be in our lineage. Is that incorrect?
So a fish or whatever are actually in the lineage are they still evolving or not? Lets say there's a mass extinction event which changes the environment and lot's of new niches are suddenly available.

That would be an opportunity for plenty of evolution at least going by what is said of the past extinctions. So surviving fish or whatever could theoretically evolve into future humans in that scenario.

To be honest I'm not a vegetarian. The issue of animal experimentation for the medical benefit of humans is a difficult one. Some of them certainly seem to be extreme.

R.D. in wishing for a hybrid of ape/human to reconstruct a "Lucy" expresses misgivings about what he expects would be the miserable existence of such a creature.
He visualizes a time when such will be possible to engineer in a laboratory.

P.S. What do you make of this story?
http://www.ibtimes.com/peta-monkey-self ... ht-2109743

I guess for the sake of fine dinning we are conveniently dismissing certain forms of life that have been recognized as having been at one time a direct ancestor of ours that given enough time would evolve into what we are today. However, if certain groups of people are willing to totally dismiss fetal life as "potential life" grab a chair and dig in till your heart and stomach are content.
It's all about who's on top of the food chain NOW.

It's interesting about vegans: I was reading a Star Trek novel that discussed in one chapter habits and disciplines of Vulcans.
Vulcans (who neo atheists admire and believe possess a level of intelligence and emotional vacuity that's attainable) do not eat anything whatsoever that exhibits consciousness, including certain plants.
Try that on for size.


I've read that story you linked. It's been circulating for a while. I think that's going a bit too far. Animals, to my knowledge, have no interest in profit(s) of any kind.
I am however a big proponent of bestowing moral standing on animals, starting with monkeys who are subjected to some horrendous physical and emotional abuse, all in the name of scientific progress that only benefit humans.
That's speciesm for starters. And I'm appalled by all this talk about how atheist/humanists are so much more in touch with the diversity of life on our planet because of they're acknowledgement of our evolutionary tree, and yet they remain silent about things like laboratory abuse of animals.
Instead of trying to argue down theists, why don't they expend some energy on topics like the above?
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Re: Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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ant wrote:Religion has been an integral aspect of fostering social growth and cohesion.
Christianity in particular teaches selflessness, altruistic behavior, forgiveness, and unconditional love.
What evidence is there that proves teaching children their grandmother was a fish will be just as beneficial to society as religion has?

Would you pick this book as one of your child's first?


http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2015/1 ... -evolution
Does the book actually say "your grandmother was a fish"? I skimmed the npr article and I saw no such thing.

The book mentions other "grandmothers", by the way.
http://www.amazon.com/Grandmother-Fish- ... other+fish
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Re: Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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Whatever the technicalities as Johnson outlined do we have to make a fine distinction to alleviate the problem of eating some descendants of our ancestors.
This really should not be a problem. Everything that’s a eukaryote is descended from our ancestors at some point because we (humans, monkeys, cows, chickens, fish, crab, lobster, corn on the cobb, green beans, wheat, rice, soy, jalepenos, and everything everything everything) all come from a common genesis of life. That's what evolution is teaching us at every corner and it is arbitrary and silly to draw a line at the basal ancestor of fish and people to say this billion to the Nth ancestor is somehow distinguished, vs this billion to the N+1th ancestor, which (somehow) doesn't count and doesn't require an explanation for why we eat it. (looking at you, octopus!)
I imagine we do eat animals who are said to be in our lineage. Is that incorrect?
Definitely everything with a nucleus on earth is in our lineage and probably everything else as well because all life on this planet is probably from a single abiogenesis. Grass is very far removed from the lineage to humans, but at it's root most definitely does share a basal common ancestor with us.

Looks like there's some fundamental misunderstandings of what evolution or cladistics is and explains. Take a look at this video which is a nice introduction and shows the usefulness of cladograms in discussing evolution.


So a fish or whatever are actually in the lineage are they still evolving or not? Lets say there's a mass extinction event which changes the environment and lot's of new niches are suddenly available.

That would be an opportunity for plenty of evolution at least going by what is said of the past extinctions. So surviving fish or whatever could theoretically evolve into future humans in that scenario.
If all land animals were wiped out fish or some other organism certainly could take to the land in a similar fashion that originally happened. There may even evolve creatures that were bipedal and communicated vocally, building huge continent spanning travel systems and large communities. But they could never be human. Because to be human you have to be a mammal, primate, monkey, ape, hominid, homo, sapien.

If you aren’t that, then you aren’t human no matter how superficially similar you are.
R.D. in wishing for a hybrid of ape/human to reconstruct a "Lucy" expresses misgivings about what he expects would be the miserable existence of such a creature.
As Aron points out, asking for a hybrid ape/man is the same thing as asking for a hybrid dog/corgi.
Or a hybrid shark/basking shark. Or a place halfway between Texas and Houston.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: Will teaching your children about "grandmother fish" make them more loving and caring adults?

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I'm not sure what follows is relevant to this topic but I thought someone might enjoy seeing what an 82 year old geezer is teaching his 55 year old daughter about what he's concluded about living life.
Letter for Lucinda 12/17/15
Dearest Lucinda,
You asked me to write down some thoughts about life I shared with you today.
In trying to understand when I was persevering in doing “God’s” will or whether I was being prideful by trying to accomplish my will against adversity, I discovered the difference between ENDURANCE AND PERSEVERANCE. But first I want you to understand what I concluded about discerning “God’s” will.
The instruction manual given to humans raised in Western Civilization we call the Bible. That there are now more than 1,200 “Versions” of that treatise, subject to enormous criticism as to authenticity, accuracy, translations errors, political corruption and the general mess caused by human concupiscence. I have personally complained to my God that he could have done a much better job of explaining what his will is for us humans than allowing humans to purport that the Bible is His instruction manual. I have concluded the enigma we are faced with, as to our understanding of our God and what our God wants of us, and the opaque information presented in the Bible, is exactly what the power of the universe wants–Our Trust.
We have to trust that whatever we know, is what our God would have us know. Should our God give us accurate knowledge about much of anything, we have shown we would make our God as a Jack-in-the-Box to jump out at our bidding, to have him use his power to impose our will. We therefore have to trust that there even is a God. We have to trust that our understanding of our God, even though speculative and incomplete, is sufficient to be used for His purposes.
My reading of the Bible causes me to believe God has given us three areas of His will in which to live. Prescriptive Will, Prohibited Will, and Permissive Will are the three areas we live in. Examples of prescriptive will are: Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, etc., Honor thy Father and Mother, etc. Examples of his prohibited will are: Don’t kill, Don’t steal, etc. His permissive will is everything not covered by the first two. Shall I marry this girl? Should I take this job? Should I quit this job? We therefore know what our God would like for us to do and not do, but how to live in his Permissive Will and still be doing His will has been a great challenge for the Christen and Jewish civilization.
If we believe our God, is omniscient, omnipotent, and all knowing, even to the hairs on our head, we then believe our God is present with us to lead guide and direct us in His permissive area to do His will. It is represented that Jesus said, “My yoke is easy and my burden light.” As tough as I found life to be, I never could understand how Jesus could make such a statement until I realized what our trusting in our God means.
In the area of activity I call Permissive Will, if I ask God if I should do this or that, and He does not place a barrier in my path, then I understand that I am free to do it and be within His Will. Whether I accomplish my task or not is immaterial. As Shakespeare said, “All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players….” I have the peace to know that whether I accomplish the task I set out to achieve is immaterial. What I believe, because of my faithfulness to ask for His guidance, I know He got from me, as His obedient servant, what He wanted to have accomplished. God is in the bowling business. He knocks over a lot of pens with one ball.
Now, and I believe only now, can you understand my distinction between Endurance and Perseverance. We endure those thing over which we have no control. We endure heat, cold, hunger, thirst, pain, fear, and I guess the need to be loved. How we endure shows our character. We can complain, do a pity party, act like a poor little old me, or get cranky. Or, we can laugh it off, make self-deprecating jokes about our situation, and ask God what exactly are you trying to teach me now.
But Perseverance is different. We persevere in matters of our will. We choose to run a mile and half-way through it, with our legs aching, our lungs burning, we ask, “What is the use of doing this?” We can quit. And in acts in the area of God’s Permissive Will what difference does it make? And for me, that is the real challenge of life. At the cutting edge of NOW, am I persevering out of pride to accomplish my task and impose my will, or am I not listening to the promptings of my God that is saying, “Enough already, I’ve gotten what I wanted from your faithfulness.” Remember the story of Abraham and Isaac. If Abraham persevered in his duty to God’s first instruction and not been inclined to interpret the ram being caught in the thorns was God’s substitute for Isaac, Isaac would be dead as a wedge and the history of Western Civilization would be totally different. Did Abraham not do right in not preserving to kill Isaac? We don’t know. And that is exactly the way it is for us who are trying to let our God lead guide and direct us in our daily walk of life. We can only trust that our choices made in faithfulness to our understanding, is what God would have us do.
The above reasoning is my explanation of why Jesus could say, “My yoke is easy and my burden light.” We can not fail in doing God’s will if we ask Him to lead guide and direct us and we follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Whether we accomplish our goal is immaterial. We know, because we were faithful to our knowledge of God, we believe He got from us what He wanted for His purposes whether we got what we wanted or not. Success then is not measured by accomplishment but by faithfulness to our understanding.
That brings up the last thought of our conversation. You mentioned how badly you felt when you “screwed up.” Those feelings are the result of the worlds system of values that have indoctrinated all of us with the concept that success is measured by accomplishment in our very competitive society. I believe this is why so many people have low self-esteem. When we fail to accomplish the task we are attempting it reinforces our belief that we are worthless. We are blinded from seeing how precious is each person and how valuable we are to our God. It grieves me there is so much strife in our world. If we could all follow the admonition to be kind for everyone is fighting a great battle (in determining if we are enduring or persevering) we might all live more peacefully-with ourselves and each other.
I’m glad Sophia is your huggly-buggly as you were to me. I pray she grows to be as beautiful a woman as you have become. Love, Dad
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