DB Roy wrote:Oh thank you Flann! Without your level-headed insights, I would have tumbled headlong down the blackhole of ancient astronaut lunacy and never come back! My savior!!!

I know your game D.B. You sling out wacko theories like the one about Jesus being drugged to simulate death with a vague conspiracy behind it all.
Then this ancient astronaut stuff where you show lots of images used by them to support it. You disown it with your tongue in cheek persona but you really hope some of it sticks, despite your disowning it with talk of Joseph Smith etc.

In fact you claimed it was a more credible explanation than the resurrection earlier.

Since your drugged survivor theory is shown to be nonsense you have to look for other ideas now.

DB Roy wrote:You're SO skeptical and logical. No one here can equal you in that respect. Professor Holding must be SO proud.

Holding certainly demolishes astro-theology so it's understandable you don't like him. All those great 19th century amateurs and history quacks like the Druid Gerald Massey or Kersey Graves and Higgins.

Madame Blavatsky seems to get into the ancient astronaut literature as well as the mythicist literature so maybe it's not quite as far removed as you would like it to be.

It's funny how so many of them were steeped in the occult,though you don't believe in that do you?

Just don't ask for primary sources though,as they just make things up so it might be a little difficult for them.

Your stuff is laughed out of the academies by real historians. I guess it's another conspiracy. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to come up with another to add to your growing collection.

Flann 5 wrote:you believe that those who believed they had seen the risen Christ would have been willing to die for their testimony to this,even if they knew they had not in fact seen the risen Christ?

The core myth of Christ provided plausible deniability to some extent for the organisation of non-violent resistance against Roman rule in the wake of the destruction of the temple and the mass expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem, as a means to subvert and destroy the moral legitimacy of the empire.

What came back from the dead was an idealised version of Jewish identity, something that Christians could readily have been willing to die for.

The resurrection story reflected the various solar fertility myths of the region, with Christmas based on the solstice shift from shortening to lengthening days at the return of the light, and Easter based on the equinox shift to the day becoming longer than the night with the return of warmth.

As the great solar carol puts it, Hail thou Sun of Righteousness! Light and life to all he brings, risen with healing in his wings.

"Ring Out, Solstice Bells"

Now is the solstice of the year,
winter is the glad song that you hear.
Seven maids move in seven time.
Have the lads up ready in a line.

Ring out these bells.
Ring out, ring solstice bells.
Ring solstice bells.

Join together beneath the mistletoe.
by the holy oak whereon it grows.
Seven druids dance in seven time.
Sing the song the bells call, loudly chiming.

Ring out these bells.
Ring out, ring solstice bells.
Ring solstice bells.

Praise be to the distant sister sun,
joyful as the silver planets run.
Seven maids move in seven time.
Sing the song the bells call, loudly chiming.
Ring out those bells.
Ring out, ring solstice bells.
Ring solstice bells.
Ring on, ring out.
Ring on, ring out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ShwcA8KkkM

Flann 5 wrote: I know your game D.B. You sling out wacko theories like the one about Jesus being drugged to simulate death with a vague conspiracy behind it all.
Then this ancient astronaut stuff where you show lots of images used by them to support it. You disown it with your tongue in cheek persona but you really hope some of it sticks, despite your disowning it with talk of Joseph Smith etc.

In fact you claimed it was a more credible explanation than the resurrection earlier.

You have no business doubting the Jesus-was-an-alien line because all the Christian bullshit excuses support it and if you can doubt it in once instance, you can't doubt it in the other. So, yes, Jesus was alien from another planet. His kind have been coming here for thousands of years. They are still coming here. Disprove it. And does this sound familiar--there are too many witnesses with nothing to gain who claim to have seen their flying machines, who claim to have met them, who claim to have been abducted by them. Fuck 500 witnesses! Here we have MILLIONS! And they live all over the world and have never met so how can there be an agenda?! Untold thousands of books have been written on the subject. The military has launched several UFO investigation projects--they never did that for your divine Jew Jesus. But ET Jesus really makes some of the brass up there uncomfortable, doesn't it? So, yes, it is a FAR more credible theory than your resurrection theory. If you disbelieve and feel the urge to ridicule it, now you know I feel about your Jesus fairytales. So don't go acting all butt-hurt about it.

Since your drugged survivor theory is shown to be nonsense you have to look for other ideas now.

It can't be shown to be nonsense without also showing the resurrection theory to be nonsense since survivor hypothesis has more explanatory power. You can disprove the resurrection hypothesis without any damage to the survivor hypothesis but not the other way around.

Holding certainly demolishes astro-theology so it's understandable you don't like him. All those great 19th century amateurs and history quacks like the Druid Gerald Massey or Kersey Graves and Higgins.

Yeah, they doubted the Christian story as too nonsensical and too full of mythical elements so, of course, it's easy to prove that they are talking nonsense. It's so much more sensible. to believe a historical demi-god walked the earth in Palestine because the Jews are just SO important to the whole universe. Then the demigod rose from his grave as a wounded corpse that walked through walls to prove he died for my sins. Yeah, boy, that shames Gerald Massey. You forgot to mention Alvin Boyd Kuhn, he's my favorite. I'll be very disappointed if Holding doesn't foam at the mouth over him.

Madame Blavatsky seems to get into the ancient astronaut literature as well as the mythicist literature so maybe it's not quite as far removed as you would like it to be.

I'll take your word for it. Apparently, you've read her. I haven't.

It's funny how so many of them were steeped in the occult,though you don't believe in that do you?

No, please do enlighten us.

Just don't ask for primary sources though

I won't because you don't have any.

Your stuff is laughed out of the academies by real historians.

Right. But they believe in the fairytale demigod which is so much more sensible.

I guess it's another conspiracy. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to come up with another to add to your growing collection.

Please. Don't make yourself sound any more stupid than you normally do. You're going for a new record apparently.

DB Roy wrote: Without your level-headed insights, I would have tumbled headlong down the blackhole of ancient astronaut lunacy and never come back! My savior!!!

DB Roy wrote:So, yes, Jesus was alien from another planet. His kind have been coming here for thousands of years. They are still coming here. Disprove it.

So which is it?

DB Roy wrote:And does this sound familiar--there are too many witnesses with nothing to gain who claim to have seen their flying machines, who claim to have met them, who claim to have been abducted by them.

Do you believe these abductions by aliens stories are accounts of real events ? The Greys,Nordics and Reptilians. Maybe David Icke is the voice of reason and sanity.

DB Roy wrote:The military has launched several UFO investigation projects--they never did that for your divine Jew Jesus.

And what have the military found,that there really are spaceships of aliens coming here and abducting people?

DB Roy wrote:Quote:
Since your drugged survivor theory is shown to be nonsense you have to look for other ideas now.




It can't be shown to be nonsense without also showing the resurrection theory to be nonsense since survivor hypothesis has more explanatory power. You can disprove the resurrection hypothesis without any damage to the survivor hypothesis but not the other way around.

It has no explanatory power at all. Someone crucified and speared, bound and buried for three days in a tomb guarded by Roman soldiers with a large stone blocking the entrance somehow recovered and got out alive?
Then he appeared to various people who believed him to be the divine son of God even though on your story the disciples somehow tricked the soldiers into letting them get him out.
You need to explain your theory more clearly. How does this conspiracy work?

What was the purpose behind it? Who persuaded who to substitute the death simulating drug etc? Did Jesus just agree to be crucified as part of some odd conspiracy?

DB Roy wrote:Then the demigod rose from his grave as a wounded corpse that walked through walls to prove he died for my sins. Yeah, boy, that shames Gerald Massey. You forgot to mention Alvin Boyd Kuhn, he's my favorite. I'll be very disappointed if Holding doesn't foam at the mouth over him.

You won't be disappointed as Holding does show the many problems with Boyd Kuhn's nonsense also.
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/kuhnking.php

DB Roy wrote:Quote:
Just don't ask for primary sources though




I won't because you don't have any.

We do have early sources though, and the overwhelming majority of scholars agree that the N.T. writings come from the first century. The problem for you is that you don't have sources predating Christianity to support the pagan parallels claims such as of crucifixion,atoning for sin, and real resurrection.
As shown,the Greeks and their mystery cults did not believe in physical resurrection from the dead. That's why Massey and Kuhn et al can't cite primary sources from them or Egyptian pagan myths and usually where they exist they contradict the mythicist claims.

The same goes for astro-theology. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbvfqa_mzLw

DB wrote:You forgot to mention Alvin Boyd Kuhn, he's my favorite.

always great to see ABK get a mention.

i love that guys work

oh man i just headed into my huge folder of all things ABK for old times sake, what a blast, much respect for that man.

here's a snippet taken at random

The first, or virgin birth was depicted as taking place on the western side of the zodiac, in the house or womb of the Virgin Mother, Virgo. This allocation was due to the fact that it is in the west that the sun, universal symbol and embodiment of the fire of spirit, descends each evening into the earth and water that represented the body in which the soul incarnated, this body itself being composed of those two elements, earth and water. So man is, zodiacally, born in the water, as natural man, on the western side; and is to be reborn, or regenerated, as spiritual man, at the end of the cycle, on the eastern side. Spirit’s descent into water (of the body) on the west makes it man physical; its later resurrection on the east makes it man spiritual, man deified. Says the text of old Egypt: "Pepi saileth with Ra to the eastern side of heaven, where the gods are born." This is the death and resurrection of the god, the basic theme in all religions. It is simply incarnation and return to heaven. It is the descent of Messiah into "Egypt" and his exodus back to spirit, historicized in the Scriptures as "Canaan."

As shown,the Greeks and their mystery cults did not believe in physical resurrection from the dead.

would that not be to their credit ?!?!? i mean you say it like it's a fault

doesn't "Paul" agree?

Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

a lot of talk of vegetation and astronomical stuff there from "Paul" as well i notice.

Long ago, at a Christmas night mass, the writer heard what was described as the oldest known Christian Christmas carol, dating from the fifth century, printed and sung in Latin. It spoke simply of the Christos, Son of God, through his mother Mary, the Virgin. But it in occurred the startling phrase: a solis natus cardine, “born from the hinge of the sun.” Here was the ancient image: the Christ is born at the solstice of evolution, at the point of the soul’s turning away from the darkness to light.

The cardinal symbol of the hinge, which represents the period of stasis, introduces us to another important symbol, the “stable.” The Christian legend held true enough to paganism to retain the ancient allegory of the birth of the Christos in a stable. As in all symbolic language, relevance and meaning are to be found by transfer from the objective world to the subjective. Stable is therefore to be read as “stability” or “stabilization.” The Christ is born in a stable, or stabilized, relation between body and soul. The two polar forces of spirit and matter are “stabled,” stalled, in stasis or stationary standstill or point of stabilization, and in that state in evolution they are wedded together and give birth to their Son.

Another ABK quoted from "A Rebirth for Christianity" considered his finest work published just prior to his death in 1963.

The very word "cardinal" means "hinge" and hence the cardinal days of the year are the solstices and equinoxes. They are the hinges of the year marking where the sun turns a corner, as it were. That is why the Catholic Church has an office called cardinal and the reason he wears red is that he is considered closest to the pope who represents the sun and they therefore receive some of his light, his glory, his authority.