• In total there are 3 users online :: 2 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 616 on Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:47 pm

Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Engage in conversations about worldwide religions, cults, philosophy, atheism, freethought, critical thinking, and skepticism in this forum.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
MadArchitect

1E - BANNED
The Pope of Literature
Posts: 2553
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:24 am
19
Location: decentralized

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

I mean the Boethius of "The Consolation of Philosophy". I don't know that I'd really recommend him to this group. He is, after all, a Christian thinker of the Middle Ages, meaning that he often intertwines his purely philosophical considerations with theological concerns. But if you can sift out the parts that don't apply to an atheistic worldview, I'd say he's a writer worth looking into.
User avatar
Dissident Heart

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I dumpster dive for books!
Posts: 1790
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:01 am
20
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

EJW: Continued serfdom? What continued serfdom?I am referring to the millions of undocumented, stateless subcitizens without civil or labor rights who's grossly undercompensated work feeds America. EJW: Ms. Rand was referring to the initiative, creativity, and self-discipline of enterprising individuals that made progress possible.And I am saying that leaves out the scores of millions who were enslaved, forced to work in dangerous to deadly circumstances, denied civil rights, and grossly undercompensated for their work...who's creativity, enterprise, and self discipline was crushed by ruthless egoists, with full force of the state and military. To leave this out of your description of "progress" says a great deal about the quality of Philosophy that creates it.EJW: Objectivism rejects the idea and practice of subservience and slavery, and promotes each man as a master of himself. It is diametrically opposed to the initiation of force.If this is the case, then it should come clean about the centuries of slavery and subverience and violent force needed to produce the great "Progress" to which your quotation refers.Welcome aboard, by the way!
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17002
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3502 times
Been thanked: 1307 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

DissidentQuote:I am referring to the millions of undocumented, stateless subcitizens without civil or labor rights who's grossly undercompensated work feeds America.Illegal immigrants? Is this what you mean by "undocumented?"
Classical Celt

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

Edward J Williamson: I too have Ayn Rand as my personal favorite Philospher. She is a modern philosopher not someone from hundreds of years ago. No theist is going to like her and your fighting a lost cause. I wouldn't waste my time.
User avatar
Dissident Heart

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I dumpster dive for books!
Posts: 1790
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:01 am
20
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

CCelt: No theist is going to like her and your fighting a lost cause. I wouldn't waste my time.What I am referring to has nothing to do with theism, and everything to do with the blatant inconsistency in the quotation EJW provided and the actual course of American history. My particular form of Christianity rejects wholeheartedly the kind of egoism that Rand espouses, but I am also well aware of many atheists who are Progressive, Anarchist, Socialists who find it just as dangerous and inaccurate. I applaud her stated values of independence, liberty, self-discipline, creativity and ingenuity: but I think she is in profound denial regarding the actual course of American history.Chris: Illegal immigrants? Is this what you mean by "undocumented?"No, I mean the millions of workers who's labor keeps this nation fed, tourist/hotel/restaurant industry afloat, and thousands of other essential jobs that are undocumented, unprotected, and undercompensated.
User avatar
Chris OConnor

1A - OWNER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 17002
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 2:43 pm
21
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 3502 times
Been thanked: 1307 times
Gender:
Contact:
United States of America

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

This conversation illuminates the very different ways each of us perceives the world in which we find ourselves. To Dissident, and a great many others I fear, society and humanity would be best served if we all existed on a completely level playing field. No one individual should be entitled to have more material wealth than the next. I can't disagree more and hope this thread, or perhaps another that is specifically created to address this matter, can adequately examine our varied opinions.I'm sitting here reading Ayn Rand's "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," and wondering if I have it in me to figure out an effective way of communicating what I consider to be the clear and obvious benefits of capitalism. Dissident, you talk of millions of "undocumented" people. I asked what you meant by "undocumented" and you pretty much dodged that question. Sometimes I wonder if you're the author of your posts or if you've copied and pasted other peoples ideas and claimed them as your own. Again, what do you mean by "undocumented?" Break the word down for me and explain how one person can be "documented" while another is "undocumented." So often we move past these emotional statements without clarification. In this case I doubt clarification is even possible.According to Dictionary.com the term has a definition that just doesn't seem to mean what you think it means. But it sure does sound nice and meaningful the way you have it stuffed in that emotionally-driven word salad. What the heck does "undocumented" mean to you Dissident? Or were you really referring to illegal immigrants? Because if you are we can talk about illegal immigration openly and honestly.I'll move past that adjective and look at the others, because each one deserves attention. What do you mean by "unprotected?" You're probably referring to health insurance or some other sort of socialistic safety net. Who should pay for this "protection?" And why? What is the rationale for requiring one person to finance another's health and well-being? Please don't jump all over me here and attack a strawman. Nobody is claiming that safety nets shouldn't exist and you'd be wrong if you assumed that I don't voluntarily contribute to charities and various benefits. But who says everyone must prop up and support the weak?? Charge! I am insensitive to weakness!Natural selection within nature weeds out the weak, sick and aged. This system insures that the strong survive long enough to procreate and pass along their genes to their offspring. Extreme liberals (aka socialists) will argue that this system might work within nature, but humanity exists independently of nature and deserves special consideration.Maybe so. I'm not arguing for extreme social Darwinism. Please don't beat the crap out of that strawman either. (I'm trying to save us both time so we can discuss what I consider to be an extremely exciting and important subject, so let's not assign arguments to one another that really aren't being made.)But I'd like an explanation. Since we all know how natural selection works within nature, and we know it works extremely efficiently, how are we as the top species on the food chain, to compete with such a system? How can we have our cake and eat it too?I think we all want to bring out the best in mankind, so how do we do this without a system of rewards and punishments for the decisions we all make in life? Capitalism is such a system. Capitalism is simply natural selection. Capitalism will crush bad ideas, poor work ethic and laziness. Capitalism rewards good ideas, ingenuity and a bit of dumb luck.Strawman #3, before it is introduced, would be the claim that I am arguing that everyone that fails in a capitalistic society must have had bad ideas, poor work ethic, or be lazy. But I'm not making this claim, so let's be honest and not go there.In nature the gazelle that gets killed by the cheetah is not necessarily stupid, slow, sick or old. The gazelle might have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, and as a result winds up another animals meal. The same goes for capitalism. Sometimes good people get dealt a bad hand in life. For these situations I fully support safety nets, but for the trailer trash unwed mother of 5 who lives off of welfare and food stamps what are we to do? Reward her by subsidizing her bad decisions?The point I am making is that a strong, intelligent and resourceful gazelle has a much higher probability of escaping the jaws of the cat to live another day. Obviously, not all strong intelligent and resourceful gazelles will survive every cheetah chase. It is all about basic probability. The same rule applies to humans in a capitalistic society.In socialism, as opposed to capitalism, all gazelles are created equally. Cheetahs kill randomly, as opposed to focusing on eliminating the weak, ignorant or aged, thus eliminating the incentive to run fast, be intelligent and strong, and dodge the cheetahs attack. Socialism is a disincentive to achieve and be the best you can be, while capitalism slaps you in the face with the reality that you better run like there's no tomorrow or there might not be. Call me an oddball, but this is thrilling to me. I love the excitement of out-running the cheetah, turning around quickly, and kicking him in the nuts. Every single day of my life I hone the skills necessary to out run cheetahs. Why? Because the cheetah is out there stalking me and I don't want to be eaten. What is the incentive to run fast under socialism? Ahh...because in Utopia
GOD defiles Reason

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

Chris, that last post looks like it's almost exclusively about capitalism vs socialism. Not much about favorite philosophers. Why don't you go ahead and start a new thread for the different topic you wish to discuss?
User avatar
Mr. P

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Has Plan to Save Books During Fire
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:16 am
19
Location: NJ
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 137 times
Gender:
United States of America

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

Rand has a few good points, but the rest goes in the trash bin for me. Her philosophy reminds me of one who looks only at the good and rejects the bad in life and thinks that only good happens. I agree with Dissident on this one.There are labor unions for a reason nowadays, because there were conditions and practices in the past that made them necessary. Money in a capitalist society is made mainly off the backs of the mutitudes of workers, not the CEO's of companies that retire to the tune of $400 million dollars.Her philosophy reminds me of Hubbards religion...by that I mean: Stick to writing fiction, please.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Edward J Williamson

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

Dissident,Thanks for the welcome. You do realize that Ms. Rand was not born American, and though she was knowledgeable about history, American history was not something that she grew up with and being taught. Her values and her commentary was shaped more by what she witnessed as a youth just before, during, and after the Russian Revolution. hr>Please Visit my published Article Archive"America's abundance was created not by public sacrifices to "the common good," but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America's industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages adn cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance -- and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way." (Ayn Rand)
Classical Celt

Re: Who is your favorite Philosopher?

Unread post

DH: What made you think that my statement is directed at only you or that you need to speak for the community of theist?Your remarks about Ayn Rand's statement (which is taken out of context by Williamson) shows a very limited understanding of her philosphy and of her personally. Quote:What I am referring to has nothing to do with theism, and everything to do with the blatant inconsistency in the quotation EJW provided and the actual course of American history. My particular form of Christianity rejects wholeheartedly the kind of egoism that Rand espousesHow many forms of Christianity are there? Which form do you prescribe to?Please explain the blatant inconsistencies in Ms Rand's quote and from where you got your information (in such a way as I too can look up your statemnt). This may prove an interesting dialog. Edited by: Classical Celt at: 4/20/06 1:27 am
Post Reply

Return to “Religion & Philosophy”