• In total there are 25 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 25 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

Where has civility gone in American society?

A forum dedicated to friendly and civil conversations about domestic and global politics, history, and present-day events.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

The Durden article invokes the halcyon days of the 1950s as the apex of our civilization, a time that epitomizes the moral goodness of America, which since that time we've squandered due to heeding the demonic voices of this Frankfurt school. Two things wrong with this view: in the 50s, our society was segregated by race and by gender; the times actually did not live up to the highest American ideals. It was also true that the U.S was the prime beneficiary of post-war geopolitics, having emerged from the war not critically weakened like Europe and Japan, but stronger than before. The factors that real historians look at to trace and explain the rise and fall of nations are more substantial than the supposed controlling influence a bunch of intellectuals cast over the entire world. It's simple to construct such theories that put thinkers in the driver's seat, but it's simplistic in the extreme and often gives largely false conclusions.
User avatar
LevV

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Agrees that Reading is Fundamental
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:45 pm
13
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Has thanked: 117 times
Been thanked: 202 times
Canada

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

LanDroid wrote:A major reason for current incivility is bias confirmation. Left and right have separate information channels where one can find everything to confirm and strengthen your current opinions and avoid almost anything that challenges them.
This just pulled me to my library to get reaquainted with Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and religion
I'm sure many BT members from 2012 or 20013 will remember some very interesting discussions on the subject. I don't recall if we linked Haidt's ideas to the politics of the day at that time. It could be a good book to review in a mini discussion in light of the crazy political discussions going on at the government level, in the media and on forums like this one.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

I'm hazy on the extent to which we might have applied Haidt's research to then-current politics. I think it would be worthwhile to dig out this book on my shelf. I was impressed with Haidt's moral foundations classification. One thing that may have changed since the book came out is conservatism itself. As I recall, Haidt believed that conservative leaders had a better chance of capturing votes because their philosophy covered wider moral ground than did that of liberals. If conservatism now is shifting to Trumpism, I doubt whether that could still be considered true.

I'd be glad to review the book, LevV, and talk about it.
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

LanDroid wrote:
LevV wrote:Virtually everything from the "article" appears to originate from this site: http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=8183
If that is true, the above website was archived in 2012. It refers to the new site below, which is extremely racist. (Might want to use a VPN or Tor before viewing to isolate your computer, yes it's that bad.)
http://www.wvwnews.net/content/
If people are actually interested in dialogue, then the method of finding a site similar to an essay you dislike and then tarring and feathering the essay with guilt by association is not the way to go about it.

The argument here appears to be that conservative critique of the Frankfurt School influence on American academia is uncivil because the same arguments are also made by racists. That is an ad hominem fallacious line of reasoning.

DWill makes a good point that the Frankfurt School critical theory helped to open up the narrow dominant American society of the 1950s. However, following the Hegelian method of analysing the dialectical interplay of thesis, antithesis and synthesis, we can see 1950s America as the thesis and the Frankfurt critique of that society as an antithesis. The need now is to find and explain a synthesis.
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

LanDroid wrote:A major reason for current incivility is bias confirmation. Left and right have separate information channels where one can find everything to confirm and strengthen your current opinions and avoid almost anything that challenges them. Hence the terms "alternate universe", "fake news", and "alternate facts" that describe the isolation between various political camps. It takes an effort to recognize this and attempt to avoid it.
I agree with this diagnosis. I think the left (that's my side) bears some of the responsibility for it.

The media were dominated by liberal viewpoints, (and to some extent still are,) in the days of network TV dominance and the Fairness Doctrine. As a result they got out of the habit of thinking carefully about the viewpoint of people they disagreed with, and responded to voices on the right with moral umbrage and a condescending smotherment with emotional anecdotes. If an issue of fact arose, the liberal press was happy to investigate, but tended to be much more skeptical of right-wing motives and assertions.

But then I look at the media behavior on the right and find myself much more offended. The spin is much more self-conscious and calculating, more like lawyers working as PR flacks than as reporters who want the story. In particular the unwillingness to admit when they are wrong about something leaves no other conclusion to draw than lack of intellectual integrity.

We currently have two of the leading candidates for Fed chair being economists who predicted high inflation due to Quantitative Easing, and one who went so far as to claim QE was an effort to prevent damage from Democratic fiscal policy, both of which were laughably wrong and based on out-of-date economic analysis.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/opin ... aylor.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opin ... serve.html
But as Krugman is at pains to point out, they have not admitted any error. Why? Because accountability is for losers. Never apologize, never explain. You are not chosen for your integrity - in fact, as Flake has demonstrated, integrity is a liability for this crowd.
User avatar
geo

2C - MOD & GOLD
pets endangered by possible book avalanche
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:24 am
15
Location: NC
Has thanked: 2198 times
Been thanked: 2200 times
United States of America

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

LevV wrote:
LanDroid wrote:A major reason for current incivility is bias confirmation. Left and right have separate information channels where one can find everything to confirm and strengthen your current opinions and avoid almost anything that challenges them.
This just pulled me to my library to get reaquainted with Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and religion
I'm sure many BT members from 2012 or 20013 will remember some very interesting discussions on the subject. I don't recall if we linked Haidt's ideas to the politics of the day at that time. It could be a good book to review in a mini discussion in light of the crazy political discussions going on at the government level, in the media and on forums like this one.
Speaking of Haidt, he co-founded the Heterodox academy, which is an online resource for college and university professors who "share a concern about a growing problem: the loss or lack of “viewpoint diversity.” There's some very interesting stuff on this site.

https://heterodoxacademy.org/

The growing intolerance on college campuses is sometimes blamed on liberals, but every liberal I know, including many college professors, actually believe strongly in viewpoint diversity. Maybe the problem on campuses is more of an aspect of tribalism and not easily put on a political spectrum..

Timothy Egan wrote a good piece in the NYTimes about the issue of tribalism in American politics. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/opin ... =eta1&_r=0

So, though I completely agree with LevV about bias conformation, I think it's actually an expression of tribalism. We are more more susceptible to bias confirmation because we are becoming more tribalist. In the south, especially, we are seeing a resurgence of white supremacy, something I would have thought impossible a couple of years ago. Identity politics is pretty prevalent on both sides, unfortunately. And both sides like to push the other's buttons.
-Geo
Question everything
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

geo wrote: every liberal I know, including many college professors, actually believe strongly in viewpoint diversity.
That's not been my experience, although I do know some liberals who are committed to it. I am in economics, where, for whatever reason, many of the conservatives in the social sciences hang out. But we see very little effort to diversify within departments, and actually professors tend to fight for places for their protégés and researchers argue that they need people to work with who share their research interests. In the really leftish departments, like sociology and history, the knives come out pretty easily. Diversity is given lip service at best.
User avatar
geo

2C - MOD & GOLD
pets endangered by possible book avalanche
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:24 am
15
Location: NC
Has thanked: 2198 times
Been thanked: 2200 times
United States of America

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

Harry Marks wrote:
geo wrote: every liberal I know, including many college professors, actually believe strongly in viewpoint diversity.
That's not been my experience, although I do know some liberals who are committed to it. I am in economics, where, for whatever reason, many of the conservatives in the social sciences hang out. But we see very little effort to diversify within departments, and actually professors tend to fight for places for their protégés and researchers argue that they need people to work with who share their research interests. In the really leftish departments, like sociology and history, the knives come out pretty easily. Diversity is given lip service at best.
I was thinking mainly of the recent wave of campus protests against speakers, such as when Milo Yiannopoulous' speech at UC-Berkeley was canceled due to threat of violence. Haidt, in particular, has some interesting ideas about this phenomenon and I think many liberals are genuinely concerned about it.

This article about the Heterodox Academy discusses this leftist-culture you're talking about, Harry.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/jonathan-h ... 1491000676
-Geo
Question everything
User avatar
Harry Marks
Bookasaurus
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 10:42 am
12
Location: Denver, CO
Has thanked: 2335 times
Been thanked: 1020 times
Ukraine

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

geo wrote:I was thinking mainly of the recent wave of campus protests against speakers, such as when Milo Yiannopoulous' speech at UC-Berkeley was canceled due to threat of violence. Haidt, in particular, has some interesting ideas about this phenomenon and I think many liberals are genuinely concerned about it.
Yes, I would agree about speakers. Most liberals I know are genuinely disgusted by drowning out speakers due to their viewpoint, let alone physical attacks. They do moan and whine about right wingers invited to campus, but it is understood (and often voiced) that some viewpoint diversity is called for.
User avatar
LevV

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Agrees that Reading is Fundamental
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:45 pm
13
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Has thanked: 117 times
Been thanked: 202 times
Canada

Re: Where has civility gone in American society?

Unread post

DWill wrote:I'm hazy on the extent to which we might have applied Haidt's research to then-current politics. I think it would be worthwhile to dig out this book on my shelf. I was impressed with Haidt's moral foundations classification. One thing that may have changed since the book came out is conservatism itself. As I recall, Haidt believed that conservative leaders had a better chance of capturing votes because their philosophy covered wider moral ground than did that of liberals. If conservatism now is shifting to Trumpism, I doubt whether that could still be considered true.

I'd be glad to review the book, LevV, and talk about it.

Rather than discuss Haidt's The Righteous Mind as we did the first time, here is another way to explore one of his key ideas from the book.

Haidt and colleagues maintain a Web site, civilpolitics.org, where, among other things, they encourage and support the creation of Asteroids Clubs. In these clubs individuals with different political beliefs come together to consider more closely the other's beliefs and look for commonalities. In other words, the focus is on asking questions and listening rather than rushing instinctively to defend cherished intuitive positions on political or religious topics.

From their Web site:
"Our main recommendations – focus on relationships and areas of agreement – remain true, but just as we advocate persuading people through intuitive, emotional appeals, sometimes understanding our recommendations is best done by hearing and empathizing with other people’s experiences."
and....

From the Asteroids Club website asteroidsclub.org/
Welcome to the Asteroids Club
The Asteroids Club is a new approach to communicating about the civic problems that polarize - and paralyze - us. The concept grew out of the field of moral psychology, which tells us that people are more likely to find common ground when they unite to fight common threats. We hope you will join in our adventure and help us grow this new idea by starting an Asteroids Club in your hometown. There are so many asteroids and so little time.

The Asteroids Club (noun) :
1. a unique non-debate on America's biggest problems, which are hurtling toward us through space and time at an alarming rate of speed 2. a gathering convened by two people who disagree politically but are willing to mutually acknowledge that the other side may see some real threats more clearly than does one's own side 3. offering more entertainment value than you can possibly have if you only talk to people you agree with 4. motto: "I’ll help you deflect your asteroid, if you help me deflect mine."


Josh Quinn from Columbus, Ohio describes in detail his development of such a group:
"After consuming literally years of laser focused biased media leading up to this election, I felt like I needed a break to try and find some sense of truth and balance in our democracy. I wanted to at least give myself an honest opportunity to seriously consider positions other than my own; not for the sole purpose of finding their weaknesses, so that I am armed for my rebuttal, but also finding their strengths so that I am better equipped to find common ground and compromise.

After expressing my desire to form a non-debate club, a friend turned me onto the work of Jonathan Haidt which lead to Righteous Mind and then Asteroids Club which seemed like exactly what I was starting but without all of the bother of having to actually go and start it. We recently held our first meeting and it was more successful than I could have hoped. I will detail what did and did not work for our group and what we plan to do in the future in the hopes that it will inspire others to follow suit....."

the rest of the story: http://www.civilpolitics.org/content/ma ... -election/

I'm interested in knowing if anyone is familiar with these groups and more specifically, if you think a modified version could be successful over the internet on Book Talk.
Post Reply

Return to “Current Events & History”