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What is Love?

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Dissident Heart

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More Love

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Never pretend to a love which you do not actually feel, for love is not ours to command. Alan Watts To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others. Anne-Sophie SwetchinePerhaps the feelings that we experience when we are in love represent a normal state. Being in love shows a person who he should be. Anton ChekhovTo fear love is to fear life, and those who fear life are already three parts dead. Bertrand RussellClarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this is why a great and clear mind loves ardently and sees distinctly what it loves. Blaise PascalThere is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness. Friedrich NietzscheWe can only learn to love by loving. Iris MurdochLove is, above all else, the gift of oneself. Jean AnouilhLove is not blind - it sees more, not less. But because it sees more, it is willing to see less. Rabbi Julius GordonFor one human being to love another; that is perhaps the most difficult of all our tasks, the ultimate, the last test and proof, the work for which all other work is but preparation. Rainer Maria RilkeHe who is in love is wise and is becoming wiser, sees newly every time he looks at the object beloved, drawing from it with his eyes and his mind those virtues which it possesses. Ralph Waldo EmersonOne word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is love. SophoclesLove is or it ain't. Thin love ain't love at all. Toni MorrisonLife's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved. Victor HugoLove all, trust a few. Do wrong to none. William Shakespeare Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 12/20/04 6:04 pm
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Dissident Heart

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...the greatest of these is Love

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I Corinthians 13:1-13Paul of Tarsus 1: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2: And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3: If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4: Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5: it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6: it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7: Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8: Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9: For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10: but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. 11: When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13: So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 12/24/04 10:37 am
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Dissident Heart

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Truth Lovers

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Interbane: Your revolution examples were not searches for the truth, those people knew the truth in their hearts.I disagree. I think Bishop Romero and Dr. King were passionate truth seekers, as well as courageous truth tellers. Both of them, travelling within two different Christian traditions were guided along a common trajectory of love. And both would be the first to admit to how little they understood or knew about their life's journey- and how much was dependent upon the brothers and sisters surrounding, supporting, confronting, and educating them. The 'truth in their hearts' was gained in communion and solidarity with those who were oppressed: the communities they served were their teachers and sources of wisdom. As Bishop Romero put it, he was converted by his congregation.I do agree with you that love is revolutionary. Wherever love is at work the status quo (which is almost always a system of domination and humilitation) gets shook up, challenged, confronted, and occasionally changed to something more humane, dignified, compassionate, sane and loving.Interbane: What you're talking about here is not so much a search for knowledge as it is an attempt to persuade others to understand the knowledge you've gained. I am pointing towards a goal of acquiring knowledge: the hope, objective and purpose of knowledge seeking. I don't see it as an end in itself, but a means to a greater end. So, I'm seeking the ethics behind epistemology; or the morality that drives the epistemological agenda.I am also highlighting the power of love in motivating, mobilizing and encouraging truth seekers and truth tellers: those for whom telling the truth is a radical deed, not simply an intellectual exercise.
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Re: Truth Lovers

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I am pointing towards a goal of acquiring knowledgeGiven how often you tend towards lecture rather than dialogue, how rarely you ask questions that you already have answers for, and how thoroughly the conversations you engage in are obscured, I suspect you're on the wrong track.
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Dissident Heart

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Re: Truth Lovers

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MA,Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Love, etc, etc, etc!

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I grow weary over endless squabble over a man made word, love.The word is useful to different parties for different purposes. Sometimes the word is used to communicate something useful, respecting its commonly held meanings for appropriate applications, others, knowing what the word means to different individuals, use it deceptively to woo or manipulate that person to either act in favor of or to make them receptive to the user of that word. The greatest use of love is the latter, and it becomes even more powerful as a tool if the person using it deceives themselves of their real intent, as then they are even more convincing.This is the arms race with "love" for evolution; the other party must evolve "truth" detection to decipher whether the love is genuine or not. A peacock with its beautiful and ridiculous plumage is honest advertisement. It shows the health of the animal and its genetically strong immune system, and that the animal was able to behaviorally survive despite the excessive plumage's enormous handicap to the bird's ability to escape predators.Another tool is memory. First failure, shame on you, second failure, shame on me! We give other organisms a chance. When they fail, we remember and no longer trust them.On gays: Gays are usually family oriented. If they help their siblings survive, they are helping their genes make it into future generations. They do not have to have their own children get their genes into future generations; their surviving nieces and nephews do it for them.On the issue of Christ's sacrifice and Christianity in general. These are Memes conquering Genes. The celibate priest does not help genes, but by freeing up his resources that would usually be absorbed in raising a family, his life energies can be utilized to propagate memes by 'saving souls' and passing on traditions to other brains, the Catholic Memeplex. Memes have been set loose in this world free from the anchor of their creators, the gene. Memes, now set free from brains into computers, may even destroy the environment of genes.The sacrifice of Christ tickles our powerful emotional centers, thereby causing us to rapidly spread the Memeplex's "Good News of Jesus Christ." The memes are the ever evolving flowers with nectar and the human brain the bee or hummingbird seeking that sweet nectar, unwittingly carrying that meme pollen around and spreading it throughout the bee colony. These memes have locked into our emotional center and have historically infected half the worlds population, pretty much like Christmas or its equivalents take advantage of our emotional weakness when we are given a gift. We predictably feel indebted and respond in kind, to the point where the whole world is infected, in debt, and our landfills are loaded with a bunch of useless junk.Monty VonnMeme Wars!
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Re: What is Love?

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Bumping this up above the closed spam threads.Chris
Doc Tiessen

memes

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Hi Meme,I kind of agree on many things you say about the spreading of memes. But I am a bit unsure if I interpreted you correctly. For me, your post seems to contain some kind of pessimism... as if some memes are taking over the world, but that this are the wrong memes... some you would not like to spread so wildy. Did I interpreted you right?I assume that you are a fan of Darwinism... if these memes are spreading like you say they are, is it bad that they do it? Is it not survival of the fittest? Are you against the fittest?I think you have to see it in a broader view... I do not see religious memes taking over... indeed there are many around... but I see that the scientific memes are more robust and that they will last longer. They are even culturally and country independent. And from the old religious memes that are still around, I think that they are not so bad... for example, the christian love your enemy meme is not so bad at all.On the issue of memes propagating in computers... maybe you see a Terminator movie kind of scenario... I do not think that computers will ever take over biological life... life is too robust to be exterminated. It can survive in the deep ocean without sunlight. But I agree that human species as we know it today will eventually disappear. But not because of machines, but because of itself. It is kind of ironic, but the rise of the human intelligence is tightly assosiated with our instinct and ability to kill others. That is why the Homo sapiens become dominat over the erectus or the neanderthaler. The evolution of man and the history of mankind is about the displacement of other individuals and cultures. Because of hominid evolution it seems that the genes for intelligence and for killing other humans are tightly connected. Quit a sad story, don't you think? Diversity is Good!
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Re: memes

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MW: "Memes, now set free from brains into computers, may even destroy the environment of genes."Hopefully someday you'll be back, though I'm sure it won't be in time to answer this. Could you expand on the above sentence? Personally, I think it's crackish. Spoken language, written word, gesticulations, song, cinema, internet, radio, etc...If fallacious memes naturally tend to be more survivable than truthful memes(as if the distinction is that clear 8P), I could see the rapid propagation of false memes via internet leading to a worldwide idiot fest, but I doubt that would kill the humans sexual appetite.
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Memes take over the world

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Doc Tiessen writes:I assume that you are a fan of Darwinism... if these memes are spreading like you say they are, is it bad that they do it? Is it not survival of the fittest? Are you against the fittest?Meme Wars:Survival of the fittest is not necessarily survival of the nicest. Survival of the fittest is us struggling with the bombardment of sales memes sapping up our time and resources, just as human overpopulation saps the environment. It is a constant arms race struggle and it is not positive. It is like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland running, yet standing in place, knowing when she stops, she will fall behind. That is so tiring!Through this vicious competitive exchange, the environment is radically changed, leaving old forms and creating new forms. Memes, using human as their instrument, will create a new environment for themselves without much concern for humans or other life forms.Doc Tiessen:I think you have to see it in a broader view... I do not see religious memes taking over... indeed there are many around... but I see that the scientific memes are more robust and that they will last longer. They are even culturally and country independent. And from the old religious memes that are still around, I think that they are not so bad... for example, the Christian love your enemy meme is not so bad at all.Meme Wars:The religious memes owns the human "heart". The science meme does not, and only attract more intelligent humans to its service, though admittedly, the less intelligent religious people love the technology developed as a result of science. The religious memes that do not give science a ride will loose out to the ones that do. On the other hand, the principles of the scientific method are toxic to the religious memes survival. So the religious memes are trying to reinvent and contain science in a way that is beneficial to the religious memes. Political Islam meme just chooses to destroy modern society and shut down science & technology altogether.Unfortunately, the friendly religious memes are in decline (liberal Christianity) and being displaced by the more nasty Fundamentalist Christians that follow the teachings of Paul more than Jesus Christ. Conservative Christianity should be renamed Paulianity instead.Interbane:MW: "Memes, now set free from brains into computers, may even destroy the environment of genes."Hopefully someday you'll be back, though I'm sure it won't be in time to answer this. Could you expand on the above sentence? Personally, I think it's crackish. Spoken language, written word, gesticulations, song, cinema, internet, radio, etc...If fallacious memes naturally tend to be more survivable than truthful memes(as if the distinction is that clear 8P), I could see the rapid propagation of false memes via internet leading to a worldwide idiot fest, but I doubt that would kill the humans sexual appetite. Meme Wars:Our technology may collapse due to the breakdown of civilization as we pass through the bottleneck of resource shortages due to overpopulation and over consumption in the latter half of the 21st century, in which case the memes will shrink back into the realm of only the human brain. But if we are ingenious enough to pass through this crisis, self replicating machines will be invented to repair our bodies and build our products, and will service us to death as we shrink into disuse. We would become its servants ever so gradually as not to be noticed. We will still be needed to service some sectors of this great complex machine that "serves us." We are already babysitting our computers hours on end already--deeply transforming our social life. This technological machine, along with the use of re-engineered life through genetic manipulation, will provide our needs and the rest of the biosphere will gradually be ignored. The gray goo of nano-robots and its re engineered lifeforms will displace the rest of the bio-sphere. There may be some human forms made of a hybrid of genetically re-engineered tissue and nano-robots, but they could hardly be called humans.Meme Wars
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