lexirexic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:34 pm Hi all, this is my first post and the reason why I sought out & joined this forum: to see if anyone else got the same message from Albert Camus The Fall. Or if there's another Camus book you've read, that would be great to talk about too, since these themes often repeat themselves in his different works.

The Fall focuses on a man who calls himself a "judge-penitent" (we gather that it's some type of administrative level judge or possibly a lawyer/prosecutor). He's not very likeable, somewhat egotistical, and as the story progresses we realize that he's an outright hypocrite, though he always manages to justify his convoluted morality.

The conflict centers around the suicide of a woman--a suicide he could have possibly prevented but did nothing. Although he brushes it off as an insignificant event, we realize as the story progresses that it is subconsciously eating him up.

Ok here's where it gets really interesting. Camus is associated with the 20th century Existentialist movement. The movement is an antithesis to the classical morality plays of literature up to that point. In Existentialist writings, there is no clearcut good/evil, no rewards/punishments, and certainly no divine justice. If you've read his most famous book The Stranger you'll recognize this theme in the main character who is amoral. He is neither good nor evil; he just is.

But in The Fall, which Camus wrote some time later, we get a character who isn't just amoral, he's outright immoral. Or maybe we could say he's a moral individual who's trying to be amoral but failing. His conscience won't let him forget about the woman's suicide.

Which leads me to my interpretation. The Fall is actually a morality play after all! But it's a very sneaky one. Although there's no outright karma or hand of fate that punishes him, we realize that his own mind is punishing him. His own hypocrisy is unwinding his moral fiber, no matter how hard he tries to justify himself to himself.

If you got this same message, then would you agree that this "existentialist" work is actually one of the greatest, if not the greatest, morality plays ever written? Without invoking gods or fate, it shows us that each person's reward or punishment is baked into that person's moral fiber, whatever that may be.

On a personal level, it makes me think about all my secret regrets, my "fall" moments, that nobody will ever know about much less punish me for. And yet, I'm sure those are the ones that will haunt me til the end. This book is about hell for those who don't believe in hell.

Robert Tulip wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:18 pm Hello lexirexic, thanks, great post. Camus is superb. Booktalk.org had a good discussion fifteen years ago about his excellent collection of short stories Exile and the Kingdom, at this link - exile-and-the-kingdom-by-albert-camus-f87.html

The Fall is available for free here. Less than 50 pages.

The Fall would be an excellent book to discuss as a booktalk fiction selection. His existential themes open deep questions about morality and identity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fall_(Camus_novel)

My philosophical interest is in existential ontology, and I have often wondered how The Fall resonates against the Christian doctrine of the fall from grace into corruption. I first encountered Camus through Robert Smith of The Cure with his reference to The Stranger.

We also discussed The Plague in the context of the pandemic - post173549.html#p173549