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Robert Tulip:

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:02 pm
by hegel1066
By all means, get the book so we can begin look at it together. It sounds at least like we might be of similar mind with regard to the author's over approach. You mentioned Tillich: and I'm glad that you know of him. I mentioned to Chris in another thread that it's precisely because the author is "leaving out all the philosopical fluff" that makes his book an easier target than it would be otherwise. Anyone can set up a strawman and knock it down. That doesn't take any tremendous sense of effort or intellectual poise.

I have a feeling that most of my arguments are going to be dismissed on the basis of being too "philosophically sophisticated" because they mention people like Tillich and Kierkegaard. (I don't mean to sound conceited when I say this, and I genuinely hope it's not the case.) But if subtlety is not actively engaged with, how are we to arrive at an intellectually dynamic conclusion?

-John (hegel1066)

Penelope:

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:07 pm
by hegel1066
I don't actually think we disagree. It's just that I have to be very careful when I use the word "prayer" here where I live. People tend to understand it as "chatting with Jesus." I think both you and I would have it mean something very divergent from that.

And as far as reading religion to get closer to god ... well, I'm not sure it can take you further away, like you might have suggested. But I think I learn more from meditating about history than most things.

-John (hegel1066

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:01 pm
by Penelope
I am thinking about the prayer of the atheist:

Dear God, if there is a God...save my soul, if I've got one.

Is this like 'chatting with Jesus'?

Does it make it any less viable because we don't have the intellect to follow the philosophical discussions?

I don't pretend to know......I am just asking, as I pray, with humility.

Penelope:

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:48 pm
by hegel1066
Penelope:

This is the way I've heard some people pray. Seriously...

"Jesus, I'm still waiting on that set of lottery numbers to come in, but they haven't .... and my boyfriend is still unattractive, can you make him moreso?"

Thanks like that. The most superficial ridiculous things you could ever imagine.

-John (hegel1066)

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:42 pm
by Chris OConnor
Robert
My reason for believing in God is that humanity is a child of the cosmos and is naturally connected to the cosmic whole.
As you lay down your premises I immediately see problems. No, humanity is not a child of anything. Our species is but one of millions of species currently thriving on this planet. Why do you need to call us a child of the cosmos? Are acorns and water buffalo children of the cosmos and naturally connected to the cosmic whole? What is this "cosmic whole?" And why are you able to see it and I can't?
This connection is divine in nature, because the part of the universe that we connect to directly - the visible stars - is a mirror for and path to the eternal and infinite that we define as God.
To say that this doesn't make sense would be being far too kind. This is "word salad" with absolutely no real meaning. I guess I'll wait for you to explain yourself in more detail.

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:51 pm
by Chris OConnor
...that it's precisely because the author is "leaving out all the philosopical fluff" that makes his book an easier target than it would be otherwise.
Saying this book is an easy target seems to imply that you find it easy to counter his arguments. As of yet I have not seen you or anyone else achieve this goal.

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:20 pm
by Chris OConnor
Well, if a god exists he could come talk to me.

Chris:

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:21 pm
by hegel1066
What makes you think he would want to?

And there are plenty of people who claim to talk to God all the time. Who's to say they're wrong, and you're right?

And what if he's talking to you already, but you haven't the capacity to hear?

Oh, the possibilities.

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:24 pm
by Chris OConnor
Maybe he would want me to believe he exists.

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:26 pm
by hegel1066
Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But who are you and I to presume to know what he would want?

I have little interest in convincing an ant of my existence, especially when I can just step on it if I wish.