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There is something wrong with this white race

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DB Roy
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There is something wrong with this white race

The title is a statement from William Burroughs. And it isn't like Burroughs was some libtard, whale-saving, bulldozer-blocking, tree-hugging. Kumbaya-singing, hipster-loving pantywaist. He was, in fact, a gun nut and a gay man (or at least bisexual) who refused to have anything to do with gay rights. But he was a superior writer with a writer's ability to observe and break his observations down into facts that informed his writing. He was, I think, the only fiction author whose books I read voraciously--one after the other. While he wasn't conservative in any conventional way, he most certainly was not a liberal. A hero to the left who didn't seem to me to have a left-leaning bone in his body. But he knew what he knew.

One thing that Burroughs knew was that racism is a societal cancer. According to a Mayo Clinic website: "Cancer refers to any one of a large number of diseases characterized by the development of abnormal cells that divide uncontrollably and have the ability to infiltrate and destroy normal body tissue. Cancer often has the ability to spread throughout your body."

Racists do the same thing to a society that cancer does to a body--large pockets of abnormal individuals that infiltrate and destroy the societal fabric, such as it is, and then spreads until the whole of that society is terminally sick with it. When I was growing up here in southeastern Michigan, ALL the white people I knew were racists. I didn't ANY that weren't. "Nigger" was generally the only term I heard ALL the white people I knew use when referring to African-Americans. I wasn't living near the cottonfields of Alabama or the rural parishes of Louisiana but in and around Detroit--a majority black city. I witnessed the "white flight" from that city as a boy. I saw how black students were treated in predominantly white schools. I remember how crazy whites acted during the busing fiasco in Pontiac, Michigan. I remember how white parents kept their children home from school to protest it. I can remember having teachers that were racists.

This racism is certainly nothing new and it isn't limited to blacks. Once again, we see anti-API racism rearing its head. 1882 was the year of the Chinese Exclusion Act. It was the first law passed in the U.S. limiting immigration (one against blacks might have happened earlier but their immigration was forced for reasons of slavery so that was okay). It was extended by the Geary Act of 1892 in which the IRS issued Chinese immigrants certificates of residence which had to be carried on one's person at all times. Those caught without their certificates were subject to imprisonment and deportation. Bail was only considered if the violator was vouched for by a "credible white person" (i.e. a white man). So, it you think the South Afrikaners forcing blacks to carry permits to be allowed on the streets was excessively cruel and dehumanizing, remember: America first.

Many times over the decades, APIs when to court to change the laws into something humane. Here is the result in a nutshell:

See, e.g., In re Ah Yup (1878) (Chinese are not White); In re Camille 1880) (persons half white and Native American are not White); In re Kanaka Nian (1889) (Hawaiians are not White); In re Hong Yen Chang (1890) (Chinese are not White); In re Po (1894) (Burmese are not White); In re Saito (1894) (Japanese are not White); In re Burton (1900) (Native Americans are not White); In re Knight (1909) (persons half White, one-quarter Japanese, and one-quarter Chinese are not White); In re Balsara (1909) (Asian Indians are not White); In re Najour (1909) (Syrians are White); In re Halladjian (1909) (Armenians are White); Bessho v. United States (1910) (Japanese are not White); In re Alverto (1912) (persons three-quarters Filipino and one-quarter White are not White); In re Young (1912) (persons half German and half Japanese are not White); In re Akhay Kumar Mozumdar (1913) (Asian Indians are White); Ex parte Dow (1914) (Syrians are not White); Petition of Easurk Emsen Charr (1921) (Koreans are not White); Ozawa v. United States (1922) (Japanese are not White); United States v. Thind (1923) (Asian Indians are not White); United States v. Ali (1925) (Punjabis are not White); In re Feroz Din (1928) (Afghanis are not White); United States v. Gokhale (1928) (Asian Indians are not White); De La Ysla v. United States (1935) (Filipinos are not White); De Cano v. State (1941) (Filipinos are not White); Kharaiti Ram Samras v. United States (1942) (Asian Indians are not White); In re Ahmed Hassan (1942) (Arabians are not White); Ex parte Mohriez (1944) (Arabians are White).

The so-called Yellow Peril fanaticism was far from over as evidenced by the Immigration Act of 1924 which restricted immigration among "undesirables" such as Middle Easterners, Hindus, East Indians and Japanese. The Magnuson Act finally lifted the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1943 when 105 Chinese would be allowed to emigrate each year to the US. By that time, Japanese-Americans were locked up in prison camps. While German-Americans and Italian-Americans who were regarded as loyalty risks were also locked up, they were innocent until proven guilty. For Japanese-Americans, they were only allowed to be guilty. Their only choice was to be locked up in a regular prison camp or a really bad prison camp (see No-No Boys). Many whites today still believe the Internment was fully justified and has enough approval among whites that it was reused against Latinx immigrant children by the Trump Regime (I am unable to call it an "administration" because I have a conscience) in 2017. No real action was taken against the policy by the democrats or the courts and it was allowed to continue until Trump lost his bid for reelection in 2020.

The anti-API hatred flares up and cools off periodically. When the Japanese automobile manufacturers became real competitors in the American market starting in the late 70s or early 80s, it flared up again. The problem with anti-API hatred is that it is, ironically, non-discriminating in that no matter which specific group is currently being hated be it Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc., it is simply extended to ALL API groups. This was made painfully obvious in 1984 when a Chinese-American in Detroit named Vincent Chin was beaten to death by two white unemployed autoworkers who blamed the Japanese for their unemployment and killed Chin by assuming he was Japanese. In the early 90s, Japanese import cars once again pushed the American industry to the brink of bankruptcy which resulted in a flare-up of anti-Japanese hatred spurred on by political leaders as Richard Gephardt who contemptuously referred to the Japanese as "those little yellow people across the ocean" and by Ernest Hollings who said, "You should draw a mushroom cloud and put underneath it, 'Made in America by lazy and illiterate Americans and tested in Japan'." By the way, I was fresh out of the U.S. Navy at that time and working for an auto supplier and found just such a flyer sitting on my toolbox when I went to grab some tools. During this time, many Korean- and Chinese-Americans reported being threatened and harassed even though those countries had nothing to do with the woes of the American car market.

Now, we are in the midst of pandemic that arose in China and spread throughout the world killing millions. Thanks in part to Trump brazenly calling it the Chinese Virus, the Wuhan Virus and Kung Flu (which earned him wild applause at his rallies), API people are not safe on America's streets. But what bothers me here even more than the car competition racism of the 90s is that the victims are almost all women and/or old people. I never thought I would see the day when whites would openly attack women. And it isn't only in the U.S. APIs in Britain are also being attacked. Of course, Britain doesn't exactly have a sterling record of dealing fairly with the Chinese if you ever bothered to read about the Opium Wars. But here in the US and Canada it is a daily occurrence when an 80+-year-old woman is shoved to the ground by a white man in his 20s or 30s. On a surveillance camera in Vancouver, a white man walks up BEHIND a tiny 22-year-old Chinese woman waiting for the bus and sucker punches her in the back of the head knocking her down and then saunters away smirking. Have you white people no shame??? What the fuck is wrong with you??????

A white man goes on a shooting spree and kills six API women (and a Hispanic woman also) and we have to debate whether or not this was racially motivated??? On the heels of this, a white man in California called a 26-year-old API woman "a fucking chink" and throws her to the ground and tried to strangle her. What is all this violence against women about???? A 39-year-old man attacked an elderly API man and then punched an 83-year-old woman in the face, blacking both her eyes. Fortunately, she fought back and whacked him in the mouth with a piece of wood, I think, sending him to the hospital but photos of her injuries look terrible. I mean, really--an 83-year-old woman??? SERIOUSLY??? My Japanese mother is 92 and I'm scared to take her out for her pleasure rides. You would think I should have nothing to fear because who would hurt a 92-year-old woman? About 70 million fucking people in this country--that's who! And they have no shame doing it. You know when they heard women being shot to death in Atlanta, tens of millions of whites in the country watched the film reports and thought, "Good!"

I've never seen anything like this. Supposedly ordinary white Americans are attacking women and old ladies on the streets. I don't understand. Shouldn't this be considered cowardice of an incredible degree??? It's becoming normalized it's happening so much. I try to picture 20- and 30-something API men attacking old white ladies on the streets--knocking them to the sidewalk, punching them in the face, screaming racist obscenities at them, strangling them and I can't fathom it. API men would never do that. I can't believe any man would but it is happening to API women every single fucking day in this country. What is happening to us?????

And white women are by far not blameless in this. These fucking Karens are something else. Who do these bitches think they are?? Two women conversing in Chinese are attacked by a white woman they did not know and had never seen before screaming at them that they are in America and had better learn English (both speak fluent English). This happens so much you can hardly separate the incidents. In one case, a white woman screamed at a 10-year-old girl and her mother to go back to China. And Karenism is not limited to Trump-supporters or conservatives. Democrat Daniel Moynihan's daughter, Maura, is the latest high-profile Karen. She walked up to an API woman, Marie Ha, and screamed at her to go back to China. The woman's husband, Dan Lee, caught her on video saying, "Go back to China!" Yet she denies she said anything racist. Lee asks her if she told him to back to Communist China and Moynihan replies, "Isn't that where you're from?" Lee and Ha were born in the U.S. nor are they ethnically Chinese. They are ethically Korean. But Moynihan denies she said anything racist. She then says it was a misunderstanding over a taxi cab. How does a misunderstand over a cab end with "GO BACK TO CHINA!!!" but it's not racist? Moynihan then says she would like to meet with them and talk things over. No, thanks, lady. Your conversational style leave much to be desired.

Then we can expect the white-controlled media to get it exactly wrong. Last year, when the anti-API attacks started, I predicted that we would see television attempting to smooth things out between whites and APIs in the wrongest way possible by ramping up programs and commercials showing white men with API girlfriends and wives and I was not disappointed. Christ, there was a shitload of them. See that, folks, all is well! Asian women are still hung up on white men and can't wait to marry them and be subservient little wives while being tigresses in bed. It's all good. It's that stereotype, I believe, that is driving the violence against API women. Every white man who never could get a date with an API girl can now get his revenge. Every white woman who lost a man to an API woman or just felt unpretty next to them can now scream obscenities in their faces the way they've always dreamed of doing thanks to the great god Donald Trump.

What changes do I expect? I don't expect any. As I said, racism is a societal cancer and the US in the terminal stages of it. It won't get better and I expect to get a good deal worse. Eventually, the hatred will die down only to flare up again at some future time down the road. Who will you whites knock down and beat up then? Kids?
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Taylor
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

The thing is D.B.
White Americans are non discriminatory when it comes to violence. In other words, those that are punching out API’s likely wouldn’t mind punching out members of their own white race. Their violence may be directed at other races and certainly may be exclusive in a given direction for what ever personal preference they have, but doesn’t indicate that there is necessarily a preference of racial targets. I mean these assholes terrorizing Asian Americans aren’t indicating that their only focus is a particular group though some hate groups do.

Whites are likely to be violent towards whites first and foremost. Violence towards others is an icing on the cake. For those that are enthusiastic haters. Whites can and will be paranoid, fearful and dangerous when it comes down to them becoming marginalized.

The racism you’re describing is more akin to White Supremacy which is as insidious as the cancer analogy.

I am personally dismayed by the horrible treatment API peoples have been handed historically in the U.S. White Supremacy is so well camouflaged within the community I am a part of that I’ve grown distrustful of many people that are friends or family. Among whites there can be total silence at the dinner table when there is the mere mentioning of the sorts of violence that you’ve cataloged, that silence is an indication of some level of acceptance of white supremacy and even privilege.
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DB Roy
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

Taylor wrote:The thing is D.B.
White Americans are non discriminatory when it comes to violence. In other words, those that are punching out API’s likely wouldn’t mind punching out members of their own white race. Their violence may be directed at other races and certainly may be exclusive in a given direction for what ever personal preference they have, but doesn’t indicate that there is necessarily a preference of racial targets. I mean these assholes terrorizing Asian Americans aren’t indicating that their only focus is a particular group though some hate groups do.
Whether that's true or not, it doesn't make 6 API women in Atlanta any less dead or their families any less devastated. if some Karen spit at my mother and told her to go back to China, should I explain it to her by saying that woman would have attacked whites too--especially considering that I have no idea if that is even true? My mother is nearing the end of her life and I'd like her to die peacefully than because some racist prick slamming her head on the sidewalk because he doesn't feel she should be in this country (where she has been a citizen since 1960).
Whites are likely to be violent towards whites first and foremost. Violence towards others is an icing on the cake.
In 2018, a white man shot and killed a black couple in a hardware store for no reason other than he hates blacks. When a white man pulled a gun on him, the killer lowered his gun and told him that white people don't kill other white people. So, I am not at all sure that that is true. If whites want to attack each other, go ahead. Nothing is stopping them. Just leave the rest of us out of it.
For those that are enthusiastic haters. Whites can and will be paranoid, fearful and dangerous when it comes down to them becoming marginalized. The racism you’re describing is more akin to White Supremacy which is as insidious as the cancer analogy.
But we're not talking some unemployed nutballs marching around flying Nazi flags. The people doing this are, for the most part, ordinary white people with jobs, houses, kids, church on Sunday. And I know what they teach those kids. That's where the next shooters will come from. The mainstream of white America is embracing racial extremism and they are not joking. They have so dehumanized API people that it's okay to beat an 80-year-old lady on the street. When Trump called George Conway, who is part-Filipino, a "moonface" and there was virtually nothing said about it, I wasn't surprised. Hatred of API people is wound that has been allowed to fester by the majority of whites. Not the minority.
I am personally dismayed by the horrible treatment API peoples have been handed historically in the U.S. White Supremacy is so well camouflaged within the community I am a part of that I’ve grown distrustful of many people that are friends or family. Among whites there can be total silence at the dinner table when there is the mere mentioning of the sorts of violence that you’ve cataloged, that silence is an indication of some level of acceptance of white supremacy and even privilege.
Proof that it is not a minority of nutjobs. The cancer has spread to all the nooks and crannies of white society and finding a dismayingly high amount of acceptance. Doesn't much matter to me whether a white person hears about the attacks and the killings and responds with "GOOD!" or "Well, it's terrible and unfortunate but it had to be done. We can't stay silent anymore." The second is much more dangerous and pervasive than the first.
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

wtf is this and why is it here lmao?? Isn't this website for book promotion, not ignorance, and racism.
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geo
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

blt777 wrote:wtf is this and why is it here lmao?? Isn't this website for book promotion, not ignorance, and racism.
BookTalk is a discussion forum. So besides literature, there are other discussions about politics, religion, science, etc. You're free to participate in any discussion you want. If you have specific comments related to the subject of this thread, please contribute!
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

Oh it's nice to know that blatant prejudice and hatred is allowed to flow here for some reason
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geo
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

blt777 wrote:Oh it's nice to know that blatant prejudice and hatred is allowed to flow here for some reason
The OP (that's original poster) is decrying the recent spate of violence and hate crimes against Asians. Where is the prejudice and hatred?
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

What do you mean? Don't act like that is all that they are doing. It is obvious they have an agenda towards the white race in particular they are singling out racially motivated incidents involving white people being the instigators specifically as if to demonize white people specifically when all races have the capacity for hatred and hate crimes. It is completely foolish what the posters are saying here, singling out white peoples race-related crimes when hate crimes are more prevalent and widespread for more races than white on Asian and white on black, such cases are simply ignored or downplayed in severity to serve an agenda of vilifying white people in general when all people are individuals and their actions should be judged as such, racism comes in many forms and the people here making grand assumptions and far reaches about white people as a race is in fact no better in thinking than the ones they are attempting to dismantle. What is racism if not ignorance and stupidity allowed to flourish? It is flourishing here with a number of assumptions on the part of the original poster. DB Roy here then goes on to say a number of false assumptions about the general populations of white Americans by saying shit like "It's the majority, not the minority" "Cancer has spread to all nooks and crannies of white society" Where is this acceptance? Where are the statistics to back up these claims? Its airless hatred spawned from fear being displayed here, similar in many ways to the way racists think and are motivated, by fear. I honestly think it's kind of pathetic that this post is accepted and agreed with blindly.
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geo
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

blt777 wrote:What is racism if not ignorance and stupidity allowed to flourish? It is flourishing here with a number of assumptions on the part of the original poster. DB Roy here then goes on to say a number of false assumptions about the general populations of white Americans by saying shit like "It's the majority, not the minority" "Cancer has spread to all nooks and crannies of white society" Where is this acceptance? Where are the statistics to back up these claims? Its airless hatred spawned from fear being displayed here, similar in many ways to the way racists think and are motivated, by fear. I honestly think it's kind of pathetic that this post is accepted and agreed with blindly.
Thanks for clarifying. I think i understand where you're coming from. Hopefully DB Roy and others will weigh in, but I would argue that our country does have an appalling history of racism, especially against blacks and Asians. It's undeniable really, a stain on our nation's soul. From slavery to the Jim Crowe era to Reagan's war on drugs—which because it affected blacks so disproportionately can arguably be considered a new chapter of Jim Crowe—to the ever-present backlash to the Civil Rights movement. I would say there's much evidence that backs up DB Roy's claims, if not his passions. Though you may be right that he tends to overgeneralize, he's right that a majority of whites have historically allowed racism to fester. That's where the word "majority" comes into play and is arguably an accurate assessment.

My problem is I've read two books recently: The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander, and Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents by Isabel Wilkerson. Both books have really opened my eyes. And the times are such that these issues are really under the microscope lately. I think that's a good thing.

When I was a newspaper reporter many years ago, I covered a few drug trials in the small town where I worked. I witnessed young black men, 18 to 20, being sentenced to ten years in prison for dealing crack cocaine. The judge in many of these cases were bound by three-strikes laws that mandated 10-year prison sentences. One judge actually apologized in court (and I quoted him), saying his hands were tied. And he couldn't consider extenuating circumstances or anything because the sentencing was mandated by the federal government. These laws on the books were passed by politicians who only wanted to show they were tough on crime. Such laws, if you take the time to look at them, unfairly targeted blacks, even if that wasn't the explicit reason for passing them.

Consider this. When Reagan launched his massive war on drugs, recreational drugs use was actually on the decline. And crack cocaine, which was more commonly used by blacks, because it was cheaper, had much harsher penalties, even though it's the same drug as powder cocaine, the form used predominantly by whites.

Michelle Alexander, in the book mentioned above, also points out that enforcement of drug laws focused predominantly in city ghettos because it was easier, and there was virtually no backlash. Because most people in positions of power are white. Most of the voters were white. It's so easy to look the other way when it comes to what's happening in the black communities.

As Wilkerson says in her book, "Custom and law segregated the white working and middle classes for so long that most would not have been in a position to see firsthand the headwinds confronting disfavored Americans."

Wilkerson also discusses the fact that many reforms passed in the 1930s and 1940s excluded farm laborers, most of whom were black. A Federal Housing Administration program was enacted in the 1950s to make homeownership easier for white families by guaranteeing mortgages in white neighborhoods specifically, but excluded African-Americans who wished to buy homes. So that we can see that a wide disparity in generational wealth still exists today.
Wilkerson wrote:These government programs for the dominant caste were in force during the lifetimes of many current-day Americans. These programs did not open to African-Americans until the late 1960s, and then only after the protests for civil rights. The more recent forms of state-sanctioned discrimination, along with denying pay to enslaved people over the course of generations, has led to a wealth gap in which white families currently have ten times the wealth of their black counterparts. If you are not black and “if you or your parents were alive in the 1960s and got a mortgage,” wrote Ben Mathis-Lilley in Slate, “you benefited directly and materially from discrimination.”
Anyway, these are my thoughts on a Wednesday morning. Apparently I'm passionate too. Feel free to disagree or challenge anything I've said—or what others have said. I don't think anyone here wants an echo chamber.

By the way, we're discussing Wilkerson's book on this forum. We're only about halfway through, so there's plenty of time to join in. We'd love to have you.

https://www.booktalk.org/caste-the-orig ... -f295.html
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

blt777 wrote:It is obvious they have an agenda towards the white race in particular they are singling out racially motivated incidents involving white people being the instigators specifically as if to demonize white people specifically when all races have the capacity for hatred and hate crimes.
I would agree that all races have the capacity, but in this country White people have been dominant, and our "capacity" has become a roaring river of racism. I think I can find stuff in the way DB Roy expressed himself that I might quibble about, but what he is saying is basically true.
blt777 wrote: It is completely foolish what the posters are saying here, singling out white peoples race-related crimes when hate crimes are more prevalent and widespread for more races than white on Asian and white on black, such cases are simply ignored or downplayed in severity to serve an agenda of vilifying white people in general when all people are individuals and their actions should be judged as such,
This is what we call "White privilege talking." Let's just treat everyone as individuals, and then the fact that most of those individuals are more likely to offer me a job and more likely to accept me as a neighbor becomes the mere luck of the draw. You know, some individuals have it easier than others, and racism is not responsible because everybody is equally, individually racist.

Vilifying white people is not the point. Critiquing our behavior by the standards we believe in is the point. Maybe they are really racist in China or Uganda. It really looks that way sometimes. But I am American, and I don't want America to be a country that accepts that kind of thing. I am not trying to vilify White people, and since I have seen DB Roy's posts here for years, I don't think that's part of his agenda either. He's just pointing out the obvious interpretation of what we are seeing.
blt777 wrote: racism comes in many forms and the people here making grand assumptions and far reaches about white people as a race is in fact no better in thinking than the ones they are attempting to dismantle.
Yeah, I expect the OP could have been a lot more objective. But he was not reinforcing a system of oppressing people, he was holding the powerful to account. That's actually a really big distinction, and the defensiveness of White people when White misbehavior is tagged for its racism is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sure, let's make a country in which nobody is treated differently for their skin color or racial background. I'm all for it. But if you think that starts by disallowing any critique of White racism, you are just buying into the system and hoping other people will, too. Silence accepts oppression. Period.
blt777 wrote:What is racism if not ignorance and stupidity allowed to flourish? It is flourishing here with a number of assumptions on the part of the original poster. DB Roy here then goes on to say a number of false assumptions about the general populations of white Americans by saying shit like "It's the majority, not the minority" "Cancer has spread to all nooks and crannies of white society" Where is this acceptance? Where are the statistics to back up these claims? Its airless hatred spawned from fear being displayed here, similar in many ways to the way racists think and are motivated, by fear. I honestly think it's kind of pathetic that this post is accepted and agreed with blindly.
So, I'll give you some numbers. Applicants matched for job and education background, who differ only by race (or sex, by the way) are routinely judged differently according to their race. One study found that Black applicants with no arrest record were less likely to be called back or hired than White applicants with an arrest record. Wtf? Nobody I know thinks that people of color get a fair shake on the job market. And we are not even into zip code effects, yet, the effects of housing segregation that make a huge difference in the surroundings a person is raised in.

I know a lot of White people who are completely accepting of people of color. They have family members of other races, they would normally give an extra consideration to anyone because of being a person of color. Nobody, including DB Roy, thinks that all White people are sick jerks who would sucker punch a person much smaller or much older than themselves. And White society is getting a lot better than it used to be at holding White people accountable for hate crimes and other racist behavior. But we still have a ways to go, and that means there is still a cancer in the society.
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

I cringe a bit at the term "white race" that DB Roy used in his title and that blt777 repeated. We know there is no white race, and no black race. I hope the only reason we talk about race is that we have no other handy term for facial appearance. This goes to the stupidity of humans, a quite homogeneous species that loves to create distinctions of worth based on skin color and other facial features.

I think, too, that if blt777 would stick around for a while, they would find that thanking a post doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with what was said or how it was said, and that not slamming the poster for his/her difference of outlook is the norm here. The response to blt777 illustrates that.

But getting to what I hear blt77 saying, who could deny that there are different racisms, that not only whites are capable of racism? But we're talking about the history of one country, the U.S., and trying to determine the relative prominence of racism here over a period of 400 years. Another thing about racism is how it is weaponized to a greater or lesser degree by one group against another. In fact, isn't that power-wielding what we're thinking of when we identify racism as a great problem in this country? So I see no alternative to the view that white racism played a huge role in our history, and though I don't know a lot about other countries' history, my belief is that racism is a particular blot on ours. It's a blot made more glaring by our declared ideals.

I agree with Harry Marks that white racism has become less severe, so that we can idealistically envision a time when we are not a racist country. That so many are talking about systemic racism is, I suppose, a sign of this progress. Taylor asks whether it could be that our violence is the main culprit, with race being one more outlet for our violent tendencies. I agree we are a violent society. I don't think Steven Pinker can convince me this isn't still true.
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

Let me clear the air here for all the people here, I have never been to this website before a few days ago, can you please explain to me why I shouldn't have been defensive upon seeing a random post on a book discussion form post that clearly seems downright racist and ignorant out of context? You can't, how the fuck was I supposed to know that the original post was based on a book, and a much more broad topic? To be honest I wasn't going to come back to this conversation because I admit that I have been a fool and I suppose I shouldn't have "attacked" the op when I didn't have the full context, but honestly Harry pissed me off so I'm going to make one more contribution to this discussion.

Lol white privilege my man that is a literal joke that I am not going to even acknowledge because I think the logic behind white privilege is a fallacy in itself. Btw quite bold of you to assume I am white, granted I am but lots of assumptions here :) Honestly Harry with your second paragraph you kind of proved my point. You call it the mere luck of the draw or in other words, the actions of an individual, as in whether or not you will be accepted by your neighbors depends on an individual's views, as in racist scum bags yes? Racism could be responsible but then again it cannot be and this leads me to my understanding of "systematic" racism. Systematic racism is racism quite literally ingrained within a governing body, yes? Except you yourself have just said that we are all individuals with different circumstances, meaning ALL people have different circumstances. Guess what? Life is not fair, some individuals do have it easier than others like you and me who have the time and the means to leave comments on the internet. That's called life, my friend life was unfair to all of us the moment we were born, me personally I admit I am privileged as I have been lucky enough to have grown up in a stable environment with a good family, but I personally know a few friends of mine that don't have the luxuries I have, two of them are white and one of them is Hispanic, and I also have a friend who is African American and guess what? He grew up in a family that was more privileged than my own. But guess what else? That doesn't mean shit, I am one person in a country full of people and so are you Harry so when you say I PERSONALLY KNOW THIS MANY PEOPLE THAT BLAH BLAH, it doesn't mean anything. You gave me some "numbers" but no sources? I have personally seen pie chart sources that I will have to dig for but I distinctly remember that people of color and women actually had an advantage in the hiring process, do you want to know why? I don't know why nobody does, nobody can discern motive completely from statistics but I'll give it my best guess, to meet a quota. As in a company must have this many women and this many minorities. So, it kind of conflicts with what you're saying about opportunities huh? Here you are toting words around like their facts, give me some sources and I'll give you some in return you passive aggressive guy. Plus is it really intelligent to cherry-pick scenarios and studies when a great number of studies and incidents can be conflicting and or not representative of a whole especially in a country where individuals have a great number of rights and liberties that logically make them more diverse in their lives and the lives of people they come in contact with? How am I disallowing critique? And I am sure as hell not being silent, sorry that you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm being "silent" Btw if you seriously want to talk "speaking up" What is speaking to a random guy you assumed a whole lot about going to solve? Nothing. What is DB Roy's post going to achieve, nothing? This is a discussion forum, not a call to action or rallying of supporters for systematic change, so really, this ENTIRE discussion quite literally achieves nothing, it means nothing, whether it OPs passionate thoughts that I had a passionate response to upon first seeing it or it's you arguing with me in turn, so please don't even try and bring that "Silence is obedience" Shit in here.


Now well I am here I will respond to Dwill with a few thoughts. I agree with your first statement distinctions between human appearance are really only relevant when discussing the ancient history and the evolution of humanity and the quirks our species developed from adapting to various climates as we branched to all continents around the world. I honestly don't mean to slam anyone, I admit I had a passionate and honestly offended response, I was in a horrible mood that day and this post was simply a trigger for me nothing more. I must say is challenging people's outlooks and engaging in open discussion not also the norm here? What exactly is wrong with challenging people's views no matter how right or wrong they are and how right or wrong the responses are? There are no different racisms, there is only racism it is not as though racism changes meanings depending on the person who is racist. I know quite well the history of this country I know how racism has quite literally defined it in a great number of ways, why assume that I didn't know that, I am a history buff. There is no alternative to the view that racism has played quite a major role in our history, that's simply a fact and to oppose is it simply choosing to ignore the truth. I think it goes without saying that racism has been weaponized and wielded in positions of great power when racism is such a prominent part of United States history. I also agree with your last statement, but I do not understand how it can be reasonably believed that white-colored people by virtue of their skin are more likely to channel it through racism and acts of hatred than other races when we are all the same with the very same behaviors? I honestly think it's just a wee bit ignorant to believe such a thing and a little prejudiced to believe that white-skinned people are more likely to commit acts of race-motivated hatred AND not be punished accordingly for it.

I honestly don't have the energy to argue or have shit assumed about me, so I will just say this, I don't want to start a big hassle here, this is the only reply I won't be back but to see responses so all I want to say is that I did make a mistake because I myself was ignorant, I had no idea this post started from a book discussion or that it spawned from another discussion. I apologize for that I was a fool indeed, and all I have to say is hatred does no good to anyone or anything thanks for coming to my ted talk.
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Harry Marks
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

blt777 wrote: To be honest I wasn't going to come back to this conversation because I admit that I have been a fool and I suppose I shouldn't have "attacked" the op when I didn't have the full context, but honestly Harry pissed me off so I'm going to make one more contribution to this discussion.
I'm sorry if you ended up feeling like a fool. Like DB Roy you came on a little strong, and I argued with you. I think that's fair enough.
blt777 wrote:Lol white privilege my man that is a literal joke that I am not going to even acknowledge because I think the logic behind white privilege is a fallacy in itself. Btw quite bold of you to assume I am white, granted I am but lots of assumptions here :)
So I have been in enough discussions about race to have recognized that White people generally don't "get" that calls for everyone to be treated as an individual, and be color-blind, are calling for pretending that there is no discrimination going on. There are also people of color who are in denial about racism, but there are a lot fewer of them because they are on the receiving end.

I think we might have a productive discussion about your belief that white privilege is a fallacy.
blt777 wrote: Honestly Harry with your second paragraph you kind of proved my point. You call it the mere luck of the draw or in other words, the actions of an individual, as in whether or not you will be accepted by your neighbors depends on an individual's views, as in racist scum bags yes? Racism could be responsible but then again it cannot be and this leads me to my understanding of "systematic" racism. Systematic racism is racism quite literally ingrained within a governing body, yes?
I was speaking in the pretend voice of a person who wants us all to pretend there is no racism. To say, "Well, yeah, there is racism against group X but that's just their tough luck" is to justify racism. Its about like saying "Yeah, I stole that guy's TV, but I guess it was his day to be robbed." Doing wrong is doing wrong.

It's true that not all the sufferings of people of color are due to racism. It's also true that some people deserve to be held at arm's length and treated as a threat, and many of them are people of color. But why put up the smokescreen? Our country is screwing itself over because some people just can't bear to see people from a different group get an even break. I prefer to be part of the solution.

Systemic racism is not necessarily part of the law. If a person asking someone else to put a leash on their dog is threatened with a false accusation because the White threatener knows she will be given the benefit of the doubt due to her color, then there is systemic racism. If a bus driver trusts a White rider claiming to have forgotten a wallet to "put the fare in next time" and ride for free, but interprets the situation as a scam if there is a Black person in that situation, there is systemic racism. If Black people do worse on an impersonal test because they are asked about their race beforehand, thus having their anxiety level raised on account of being Black, there is systemic racism.

The point about it being a system is that it can work without anyone intending for it to work. If people just draw judgments about others based on their observations, and there just happen to be racial biases in their observations, and the result is segregation in housing and disadvantages in schooling and then trouble getting work because you were segregated into schools that weren't doing the job, then the system is perpetuating itself without anybody intending to be racist.
blt777 wrote: Except you yourself have just said that we are all individuals with different circumstances, meaning ALL people have different circumstances. Guess what? Life is not fair, some individuals do have it easier than others like you and me who have the time and the means to leave comments on the internet. That's called life, my friend life was unfair to all of us the moment we were born, me personally I admit I am privileged as I have been lucky enough to have grown up in a stable environment with a good family,
I hope you are hearing yourself. And I suggest you do some thinking about how enforced poverty passes on the trauma and the disadvantage to the next generation. Because our country did a very thorough job of enforcing poverty right up to 1970, and hasn't exactly fixed the systems that hold people down since then. Think about how many people believe Barack Obama was not a legitimate president despite the evidence. Think about the people ready to believe lie after lie because of racism. It's sickening, really.
blt777 wrote: You gave me some "numbers" but no sources? I have personally seen pie chart sources that I will have to dig for but I distinctly remember that people of color and women actually had an advantage in the hiring process, do you want to know why? I don't know why nobody does, nobody can discern motive completely from statistics but I'll give it my best guess, to meet a quota. As in a company must have this many women and this many minorities.
The source I was working from is
https://economics.mit.edu/files/11449
I had used it recently in an Economics of Social Issues class that I am teaching. I recommend you start on page 9 because that includes the info I mentioned. There is another good discussion at
https://www.nber.org/system/files/worki ... w17450.pdf
So, let's think about those pie charts. If you have 100,000 people qualified for 1000 jobs, and up until year X the 1000 jobs always went to White males, is it such a problem to insist that some of the people from other groups get their fair shot? You could put it up to a lottery, I suppose, but I think a little compensation is in order. That instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to White males, the way it was always done before, that instead you give the benefit of the doubt to women who are qualified, or to minorities who are qualified. And maybe that looks like hiring is biased in their favor, but the workplace is still dominated by White males and so the outsiders are still up against hostility and mistreatment.
blt777 wrote:So, it kind of conflicts with what you're saying about opportunities huh? Here you are toting words around like their facts, give me some sources and I'll give you some in return you passive aggressive guy. Plus is it really intelligent to cherry-pick scenarios and studies when a great number of studies and incidents can be conflicting and or not representative of a whole especially in a country where individuals have a great number of rights and liberties that logically make them more diverse in their lives and the lives of people they come in contact with?
Sounds like a productive discussion.
blt777 wrote:How am I disallowing critique? And I am sure as hell not being silent, sorry that you don't like what I have to say doesn't mean I'm being "silent"
In my view, DB Roy was critiquing a sick society. I think he went too far and generalized about White people in ways that are not totally fair, but it isn't my aunt who is getting sucker punched or pushed to the ground for not being White enough for some jerk. So, in my view, when you advocated just treating everyone as an individual you were trying to disallow critique.
blt777 wrote: Btw if you seriously want to talk "speaking up" What is speaking to a random guy you assumed a whole lot about going to solve? Nothing. What is DB Roy's post going to achieve, nothing? This is a discussion forum, not a call to action or rallying of supporters for systematic change, so really, this ENTIRE discussion quite literally achieves nothing, it means nothing, whether it OPs passionate thoughts that I had a passionate response to upon first seeing it or it's you arguing with me in turn, so please don't even try and bring that "Silence is obedience" Shit in here.
I think it's better to challenge it when I see the sort of coverup for a racist system that some of your remarks amounted to.

blt777 wrote: I do not understand how it can be reasonably believed that white-colored people by virtue of their skin are more likely to channel it through racism and acts of hatred than other races when we are all the same with the very same behaviors? I honestly think it's just a wee bit ignorant to believe such a thing and a little prejudiced to believe that white-skinned people are more likely to commit acts of race-motivated hatred AND not be punished accordingly for it.
I don't think people believe that Whites are more likely to abuse others than other races would be if they were in the situation of dominance. I can't speak for DB Roy, but that is certainly not my feeling, and progressive writer Ta-Nehisi Coates says straight up that he thinks any race in a position of dominance like that would probably have done the same.

The point is, "other races would be just as bad" is not a good excuse for behaving badly. If we accept people misbehaving "because they can" then we are in effect saying that misbehavior is appropriate. White folks are generally in a situation of having their material needs met, and living in a free society, and one of the responsibilities that goes with that is to try to see that everyone gets to share in that prosperity and freedom (for a change).
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Mr. P
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Re: There is something wrong with this white race

blt777 wrote: I don't think people believe that Whites are more likely to abuse others than other races would be if they were in the situation of dominance. I can't speak for DB Roy, but that is certainly not my feeling, and progressive writer Ta-Nehisi Coates says straight up that he thinks any race in a position of dominance like that would probably have done the same.

The point is, "other races would be just as bad" is not a good excuse for behaving badly. If we accept people misbehaving "because they can" then we are in effect saying that misbehavior is appropriate. White folks are generally in a situation of having their material needs met, and living in a free society, and one of the responsibilities that goes with that is to try to see that everyone gets to share in that prosperity and freedom (for a change).

This has been my position since forever. Most folks speak of and strive for equality, arguing that the human species is not further demarcated by race. Blank Slate or not, we are all the same and have the same abilities with which to achieve and prosper.

Well, you can't have it both ways. There is no such creature as the noble savage. It is quite the opposite. Left in a world where hardship is the norm and pursuits of higher levels of existence are not even on the radar, nobility is not even conceptual. That's our base existence and nature.

We are all the same. And given that we must acknowledge that we are all, regardless of race (whatever that is) capable of the same good as well the same horrors. The only thing that set white folks above the rest were certain environmental and other situational factors that provided advantages that enabled rapid advancement.

If things had been just a little different, it is not so complicated to envision a world where the 'whites only' water fountains were a thing.

I also agree... This fact is not an excuse. We HAVE been able to advance and learn and achieve higher levels of existence over our basic needs. Unfortunately, education has been under assault by certain groups for a long time. Ignorance is embraced. This is also something that is not just white.

White privilege exists. Systemic racism exists. They need to be combatted. Just because they are not the ONLY reason that certain races and genders are marginalized, subjugated, or left behind does not mean they are not there and should DISGUST any real thinking person.

I work with a typical white kid that always tries to argue that these things do not exist. It is somewhat nauseating to watch him prove exactly what he is arguing against. Typical kid who's daddy owes the business and will inherit it even though he knows nothing about how to run it.
When you refuse to learn, you become a disease.
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