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Orwellian liberalism
https://www.booktalk.org/orwellian-liberalism-t31129-30.html
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Author:  ant [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

DWill wrote:
You've said some confusing things lately about race and racism, ant. Now are you saying that statues of Confederate generals or slave owners have no connection to racism? Or is it simply the tearing down that you're against?



I said no such thing.. thanks for asking though.

I am against the indiscriminate tearing down of statues without first having a rational discussion about their historical context and what we can learn from each. I am against blind and mute barbarianism.

Are you against that suggestion or are you in favor of this type of leftist banana republic behavior?



Btw,

I will be responding to your earlier reply to me wherein you are toeing the line of accusing me of not reading the links I post.
It is almost condescending of you to imply that I am not

Author:  Taylor [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

It’s very difficult to find an exact number, but from a perusal of Wikipedia I’m counting in the neighborhood of 50 statues, memorials, schools, buildings dedicated to the memory of Jefferson Davis, president of the confederate states. Does there have to be 50 rational discussions?.

I’ll grant that there should not be a banana republic destruction of the Jeff Davis presidential library, so I’d say.. change the name of the schools, rededicate the buildings under a new banner, and then move all other statues/memorials to the Jeff Davis presidential library. Then have an open memorial to a man so short cited that he could not comprehend the historical damage that he and other gloriously short cited losers had and would be responsible for.

Author:  DWill [ Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

ant wrote:
DWill wrote:
You've said some confusing things lately about race and racism, ant. Now are you saying that statues of Confederate generals or slave owners have no connection to racism? Or is it simply the tearing down that you're against?



I said no such thing.. thanks for asking though.

No, you didn't say such a thing, but with the talk about Gandhi and Mohammed statues, it seemed natural to wonder what you think about the immediate matter at hand, in terms of statuary.
Quote:
I am against the indiscriminate tearing down of statues without first having a rational discussion about their historical context and what we can learn from each. I am against blind and mute barbarianism.

OK, but you still haven't answered the question. It's your right not to.
Quote:
Are you against that suggestion or are you in favor of this type of leftist banana republic behavior?

It's complicated, since blind and mute barbarism is also a big part of what the statues represent to people. ('Banana republic behavior' strikes the wrong note for me, just by the way). I'm not in favor of toppling statues, if by that we mean, would I be willing to participate in that act? I wouldn't be. But that doesn't quite settle the matter. I have little skin in the game; the oppression the statues signify wasn't directed against people like me. I wish they were never erected, but my regret isn't deeply felt. How would I feel if I had slave ancestry and I felt sure that "rational discussion" wasn't going to happen or if it did, wouldn't result in the removal of the images? It's very well known that African Americans find the statues threatening, but they're mostly still up. So what would discussion do?

In real life, I'll do about anything just to be able to get along with people, which I'm not always proud of, and not in this case especially. I haven't protested about the two Confederate statues in my town, a mile away, or written letters to the newspaper. After Floyd's killing, both were spray-painted. I didn't go around yelling, "Whoopee!"
Quote:
Btw,

I will be responding to your earlier reply to me wherein you are toeing the line of accusing me of not reading the links I post.
It is almost condescending of you to imply that I am not

You can take that off your list if you want. By "if we read a little carefully," I didn't mean to say you hadn't read the articles. You might have misinterpreted the intent of the writers, if I'm right in what I said.

Author:  ant [ Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

Time for a random fact check.

This one exposes democratic/leftist historical illiteracy and shameless pandering to black people


Yes, Kente cloths were historically worn by empire involved in West African slave trade


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 345941002/

Author:  ant [ Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

Abraham Lincoln statue burned:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/a ... ide/22120/



The leftist fascist movement continues.

Author:  ant [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

Liberal anarchists make campaign add for Trump


George Washington statue toppled


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-was ... nd-oregon/


The broken corrupt and weak democratic party is allowing this.

its leaders are weak
its followers even weaker

Author:  Harry Marks [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

ant wrote:
Time for a random fact check.

Yes, Kente cloths were historically worn by empire involved in West African slave trade


I can tell you from direct personal experience that there is an ongoing process of facing the history of African slave traders, going on in West Africa today. We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags, which were emblems of fight for an oppressive system and have been used to this day as symbols of white nationalism and white supremacy.

I could name some uncomfortable aspects of sexism and authoritarianism that are more directly involved in kente weaving. History is heavily laced with the wrongs of the past, which I think is a lot of ant's point about pulling down statues. For the record, I am opposed to removing statues of figures who contributed to the nation in their own right, as opposed to those who fought to maintain slavery. A comment plaque or other added perspective might be appropriate.

Amherst College is trying to change the name of the mascot (their teams are the "Lord Jeffs" for Lord Jeffrey Amherst) because he is most widely known for intentionally introducing smallpox to Native American communities. It is amazing to me, shocking even, that many Amherst alumni are fighting to keep their little terrorist in his position of honor.

Author:  ant [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

Quote:
We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags,



No one is confusing kente clothes with confederate flags, Harry.. Only you are.


The fact check is in despite your strawman's digression.

Author:  Harry Marks [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

geo wrote:
Most of our Confederate monuments are essentially propaganda anyway. They were erected in the 1910s-1950s during a resurgence of race riots and civil unrest in our country and while some states were expanding Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise black Americans. I don't really see removal of these monuments as "air-brushing" history (nor an egregious offense against humankind).


Or, to put it another way, since the statues were themselves an effort to airbrush history, is it not just as wrong to leave them as to tear them down? And since the revisionist narrative behind the statues was integral to a movement to oppress African-Americans, I would say they are indefensible. Put them in museums, or statuary parks.

Author:  Harry Marks [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

ant wrote:
Quote:
We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags,


No one is confusing kente clothes with confederate flags, Harry.. Only you are.

The fact check is in despite your strawman's digression.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were so confusing them. I meant to head off any interpretations in that direction. I apologize for the appearance of a strawman attack - I could have been clearer about avoiding it.

Author:  ant [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

Harry Marks wrote:
ant wrote:
Quote:
We should not confuse kente cloth with Confederate flags,


No one is confusing kente clothes with confederate flags, Harry.. Only you are.

The fact check is in despite your strawman's digression.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you were so confusing them. I meant to head off any interpretations in that direction. I apologize for the appearance of a strawman attack - I could have been clearer about avoiding it.



No, Harry.. you're more intelligent than that.

You know what you did. And I know what your intent was.

Author:  Harry Marks [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

ant wrote:
No, Harry.. you're more intelligent than that.

You know what you did. And I know what your intent was.

Umm, really? I lived in West Africa for a while. I have several items of kente cloth in my house. I am interested in this stuff.

The cited article made some efforts to put things in perspective. I made some more. I don't really know why you posted the "random fact check" but I was interested in heading off one possible implication. If you want to see that as an attack, that is your privilege, but it doesn't put you in a good light. Kind of a "protests too much" position.

Author:  ant [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

Quote:
If you want to see that as an attack


Who said I saw it as an attack? Why are getting jumpy about this?


The kente apparel worn by Pelosi and her democratic thugs was a pandering ploy to win favor..
It was also a very dumb choice because historically the people that fashioned that clothe also had skeletons in their closet related to the immoral practice of slavery.. The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife.


One thing you were attempting to do was put lipstick on a pig.



It's nice that you once lived in West Africa.. I'm am sure there are racists there too.

Author:  Harry Marks [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

ant wrote:
Quote:
If you want to see that as an attack


Who said I saw it as an attack? Why are getting jumpy about this?
Okay, I stand corrected. "Strawman attack" was my phrase. But "strawman" was yours, and attack is the usual implication, so you could maybe see how I jumped to that conclusion.

ant wrote:
The kente apparel worn by Pelosi and her democratic thugs was a pandering ploy to win favor..
One person's pandering is another person's politicking. I am fine with using a variety of symbolism to express solidarity with constituents, and I see nothing wrong with using kente cloth. My church choir wears kente stoles regularly, and nobody sees anything debased about it. At least, not that I know of.

ant wrote:
It was also a very dumb choice because historically the people that fashioned that clothe also had skeletons in their closet related to the immoral practice of slavery.. The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
I disagree. Now, if the Dem leadership had been advocating taking down statues of Jefferson and Washington at the same time, I would see some irony. If they were trying to expunge every possible taint of America's original sin, then yes, I could understand why kente cloth could be subject to the same treatment. But I don't think that was the case.

Is the British Union Jack a racist symbol? The British wealth that won wars in the 18th and 19th century was built on slave labor in the West Indies and on exploitation of India. So nobody meeting with the Brits should allow the Union Jack to be flown? I just don't see it.

The Ashante Empire was an empire. It dominated others, and it participated in the wealth-building atrocity of capturing and selling other people as slaves. Much of the wealth of the Middle East before oil was also gained from slave trading. Honesty, yes, I am in favor of honesty. Irony? In the eye of the beholder, I guess.

ant wrote:
One thing you were attempting to do was put lipstick on a pig.
Well, again, I don't see it. If someone hires a mariachi band to play at a rally in Arizona or California, I don't think it is pandering. If they play Gloria Estefan tunes in Miami, that just makes sense. And if they play polka music in Milwaukee, people don't get pushed out of shape about it. No matter what terrible things the Polish ruling class may have done.

ant wrote:
It's nice that you once lived in West Africa.. I'm am sure there are racists there too.
You think? The assumption of white privilege is so strong there that it got tiresome, even to me, the beneficiary. But I also learned a few things about its visibility to ordinary Africans and possible invisibility to ex-pats. In short, it's all about the money.

Author:  ant [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orwellian liberalism

You are apologetically civil in this thread but talk about how family members of mine should be "sick" of something I've said in another?


You are a blazing hypocrite, Harry.

Forget COVID19 restrictions and go to church.

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