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Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:01 am
by DWill
If the House was still controlled by Republicans, how would we assess the possibility of the coup succeeding? I wouldn't bet against that happening in that case. It's sobering to consider how frail our democracy seems to have become. When checks to power fall, democracy becomes impossible. The Democrats will win this particular battle, but what does it portend that things once inconceivable have now been openly embraced? It's not likely that normal will be restored.

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:21 am
by DB Roy
If you want to torture yourself with what ifs, go ahead.

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:12 pm
by DWill
DB Roy wrote:If you want to torture yourself with what ifs, go ahead.
No, it's just that I think we need to brace for continued Trumpism after Trump exits.

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:05 am
by Robert Tulip
DWill wrote:It's sobering to consider how frail our democracy seems to have become. When checks to power fall, democracy becomes impossible. The Democrats will win this particular battle, but what does it portend that things once inconceivable have now been openly embraced? It's not likely that normal will be restored.
Generalissimo Donald Pinochet will spend the next four years trying to trumpet military support for an armed overthrow of the Biden Administration by his Presidency In Exile, somewhat on the model of the CIA backed coup d'etat in Chile in 1973.

Failing that, a new confederacy will seek to mobilise secession of the red states, with possible reintroduction of slavery (joke).

I interpret US history on the model of the ancient Roman transition from republic to empire, where the economic interests of the supremely powerful required removal of the limited consultative constraints exercised by the senate. But such changes take a long time. Rome's Republican heyday was the Punic Wars, and it took 150 years from the defeat of Hannibal to Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon. On that time scale, looking at the WW2 greatest generation as America's republican high point, we are now at the equivalent of 130 BC, and full American Empire would not be expected until the end of this century, although considerable internal strife can be expected first.

A difference from Roman republican times is that the USA has external constraints. So Trump's nativist vision of xenophobic nationalism encounters dialogue with other great powers with competing interests, as well of course as the remarkable speed and scope of modern communications.

The slide to dictatorial military empire is what the Trump phenomenon would presage in the obsolete world Trump imagines. Global connection through technology means such a world does not exist except in delusional fantasy. The forces of popular inclusion are likely to outweigh those of autocratic imperialism, but it could be a close run thing, in view of the power of money, arms and emotion to convince people of the truth of big lies, as seen in the current mad election conspiracy theory.

The scale of the US military is the biggest danger to American and world politics, with its ridiculous military expenditure greater than the next ten biggest spenders combined. If the military finds its budget is threatened by democracy, then democracy could go out the window.

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:02 am
by geo
DB Roy wrote: It CAN'T work! Do you understand why it can't work? If Brooks should find a senator to stand up with him (and I doubt that will happen), both chambers split up and discuss the merits of the objection. They kick it around for two hours and--ready or not--they vote on it. The vote MUST pass both chambers.
Yes, thank you! I'm just a bit paranoid these days.

I don't know why, but I'm always trying to figure out Trump's motivations. Trump's legal team has filed numerous lawsuits, trying to overturn the election. But was this Trump's actual goal or is he merely posturing for his base. Probably a little of both.

Also, as this NYTimes article points out, Trump's protests of a "rigged election" keeps the money flowing in.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/30/us/p ... tions.html

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:40 pm
by DWill
Geo, I read yesterday that Trump's take is now up to 207.5 million. Apparently most of it is unrestricted, belonging to his new PAC, Save America (what delicious irony). I don't know if he truly could use the money to pay off personal debts. It would be my fervent hope that he could not do so legally. I hate to say something like this: how can people be so stupid.

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:08 am
by DB Roy
geo wrote:
DB Roy wrote: It CAN'T work! Do you understand why it can't work? If Brooks should find a senator to stand up with him (and I doubt that will happen), both chambers split up and discuss the merits of the objection. They kick it around for two hours and--ready or not--they vote on it. The vote MUST pass both chambers.
Yes, thank you! I'm just a bit paranoid these days.

I don't know why, but I'm always trying to figure out Trump's motivations. Trump's legal team has filed numerous lawsuits, trying to overturn the election. But was this Trump's actual goal or is he merely posturing for his base. Probably a little of both.

Also, as this NYTimes article points out, Trump's protests of a "rigged election" keeps the money flowing in.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/30/us/p ... tions.html
That's the motivation. Like any other con man, Trump's motivation is, "How can I make money off this?"

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:19 am
by DB Roy
DWill wrote:Geo, I read yesterday that Trump's take is now up to 207.5 million. Apparently most of it is unrestricted, belonging to his new PAC, Save America (what delicious irony). I don't know if he truly could use the money to pay off personal debts. It would be my fervent hope that he could not do so legally. I hate to say something like this: how can people be so stupid.
Even worse, if Trump told these donors that he intends to use the money to pay off his own personal debts, they'd still fork it over and ask if he needs more. Because if they refused to give him money on that count, they would have to admit we were right about him and that just kills them!! They would literally rather die than admit we were right. A nurse in an interview said that one man they treated for covid was dying and they told him that they had done all they could. He accepted that but what he refused to accept was that he had covid. He insisted he was dying of lung cancer because covid is an obvious hoax. He said if they offered him a covid cure, he wouldn't take it because he knows he's dying of lung cancer. That's how stubborn, arrogant and stupid these people are. They would literally rather die than admit we are right.

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:46 pm
by LanDroid
^Related to those delusions, I've seen videos of people who voted for Trump because he would destroy Obamacare even though they had Obamacare insurance. They thought since they were "good people" he would not take that insurance away from them, only the bad folks who did not deserve it. Another said he would rather die of liver cancer than get Obamacare to save his life because that money might go towards undeserving bums. Without understanding it, both support the American Caste System.

Re: Trump Watch

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:45 pm
by Robert Tulip
LanDroid wrote:Another said he would rather die of liver cancer than get Obamacare to save his life because that money might go towards undeserving bums. Without understanding it, both support the American Caste System.
Caste is about the principle of inequality, the idea that 'superior' people are intrinsically worth more and are personally better than the 'inferior', based on social position rather than personal merit.

For Trump, the caste-based attitude includes the idea that Republican votes should be worth more than Democrat votes, because Republicans are a superior caste. That is why he is not conceding the election to Biden.