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Orwellian liberalism 
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Post Orwellian liberalism
Quote:
House Democrats, prompted by demonstrations against racism and police brutality across the country, are renewing a push to expel Confederate statues from the halls of Congress.


https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democra ... d=71140758


Quote:
Local Richmond media have posted images showing the Christopher Columbus statue located in Byrd Park has been torn down from its pedestal and thrown into the lake.


https://www.khou.com/article/news/local ... 3436ff543d

Quote:
London’s mayor announced Tuesday that more statues of imperialist figures could be removed from Britain’s streets after protesters knocked down the monument to a slave trader, as the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis continued to spark protests — and drive change — around the world.


https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/09/ ... t-figures/

Quote:
On Tuesday, HBO Max removed the 1939 film from its library in the wake of protests over the death of George Floyd.


https://variety.com/2020/film/news/hbo- ... 234629892/


Quote:
BOSTON — Protesters renewed calls Tuesday to rename Boston’s Faneuil Hall, a historic meeting house that is often called the Cradle of Liberty — but is named after a slave trader.


https://www.salemnews.com/news/state_ne ... ac835.html


After this what's next, Dear Party?



Quote:
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”


George Orwell ~ 1984


Just who exactly are the fascists I need to be worried about?



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Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:20 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four is about an oppressive totalitarian government that takes draconian steps to control its citizens including, as you say, manipulation of language and rewriting history. Orwell is not ambiguous that the bad guy here is an oppressive government. As such, your closest analog to what is happening in the world right now is these guys.

Image

Protestors are toppling statues as a reaction to racism and police brutality. But there’s nothing remotely Orwellian about protests and unrest. It’s what people do when they are oppressed. The protagonist in Nineteen Eighty-Four—Winston Smith—is a rebel, whose small acts of resistance make him feel alive and free—until he is eventually crushed and turned into an obedient, unquestioning party member. It’s not a happy ending.

I’m certainly not endorsing the destruction of property, but you do have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. As such protests do often erupt in violence. These are not happy days for our country, but I do hope something positive comes out of the current unrest.

As for HBO’s temporary removal of the movie, Gone With The Wind, this was a decision by the company, not a ruling by an oppressive government (or the Big Bad Left). Do you disagree that HBO has every right to control its content? In fact, HBO sees this as an opportunity to present the movie in a new context. The movie will return to the platform with a “discussion of its historical context and a denouncement of the movie’s depictions of ethnic and racial prejudices.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/10/hbo-max ... -wind.html


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Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:39 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
So, is there Orwellian conservatism as well? Ant might not have intended to suggest there can be, but we can easily see that the adjective derived from the famous anti-fascist˚s name is wielded by those from both political poles. Recall "alternative facts" and the spate of sales of 1984 that followed? I've always thought that Conway didn't mean what anti-Trumpers assumed, but the coinage fit well into the context of Trump's false claim of huge crowds at his inauguration.

Removing statues isn't the same as rewriting the history books to expunge the offensive names. If people want to learn about the history, they still can; it's up to them. For me, taking down statues says that we might finally resolve to be one country. Sometimes the statues are moved to museums; some communities have chosen to put up signage explaining the Lost Cause movement around 1900 that occasioned the erection of these statues. The statues then become monuments to a racist past, which is a lesson worth teaching, or so goes the thinking.

As for tearing down--destroying--the statues, if we decry such vandalism, we might think of how we react to pictures of newly liberated people in the former Soviet Union toppling images of Stalin. How many of us point disapproving fingers at that?



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Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:56 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
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No, removing confederate statues won't solve the reality of racial inequality. Yes, it's just symbolic. But so are the statues themselves. Leaving them up sends a message, as does taking them down. The question is: which message is better?
- Tim Wise 6/10/20

Quote:
Don't worry about those Confederate statues being torn down. They're getting what they always wanted: out of America.
- Stephen Colbert



Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:57 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
When enough talking points are volleyed at what is actually happening in reality those talking point are worthy of being ignored.

Remove Gandhi statues because he too was a racist!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lei ... re-5302540


The global idiocracy is being ushered in by the left.


This is some serious stupidity going on here.

NO MORE HISTORY!!
NO MORE DEBATE!!
WE ARE ALWAYS RIGHT!!

The left created too many echo chambers.. too many safe space bubbles where only those who agree with them are allowed.

I have been saying this from the very beginning - the left became utter intellectual cowards.



Next up - The Founding Fathers.


Put perhaps this is just more of 'the language of the poor"?



Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:40 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Geo wrote:

Quote:
Protestors are toppling statues as a reaction to racism and police brutality.


That is absolute rubbish.. a played-out "talking point" that attempts to justify ritualized vandalism.
It won't work on those who can see the blind ideology in action.

How dishonest to treat this as if it is some sort of intellectual exercise when it is nothing more than a mindless collective of irresponsible thugs who likely walked past these statues countless times before without ever giving them a second thought.

So an issue of police brutality is the time to air brush history?


Stop -- just stop, Geo.



At last! A glimmer of sanity!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1592061395



Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:34 am
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
As Tim Wise said taking those statues down sends a message. It does not change or erase history. (We do not require sculptures of rat fleas to learn of the bubonic plague.) But taking them down (moving to a museum etc.) shows we no longer revere those figures.

Wise said leaving the statues up also sends a message. In part it shows America continues to revere those people. They represent a failed attack to defend slavery and, indirectly, the racism that continues.

Wise states "Yes, it's just symbolic," then asks which is the better message?



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Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:36 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
LanDroid wrote:
As Tim Wise said taking those statues down sends a message. It does not change or erase history. (We do not require sculptures of rat fleas to learn of the bubonic plague.) But taking them down (moving to a museum etc.) shows we no longer revere those figures.

Wise said leaving the statues up also sends a message. In part it shows America continues to revere those people. They represent a failed attack to defend slavery and, indirectly, the racism that continues.

Wise states "Yes, it's just symbolic," then asks which is the better message?



More talking points used as arguments for banana republic behavior.

You do know there are ways to introduce stuff like this via a civilized forum, right?



Get real..

I don't care what "Wise states" Stop regurgitating other people's ideas.

Again, stop trying to paint this banana republic anarchist behavior as if its the "language of the unheard" or an intellectual exercise of sorts
That crap is played out.
It is the actions of people brutishly too stupid to actually have an intelligent conversation about it.


These leftist anarchist with underdeveloped brains with a shallow understanding of history (good and bad) currently on the streets are the spawn of old leftists what have become dinosaurs with their ideas about socialist utopias.


The "better message" is to tear a statue of Gandhi down rather than let it strike true intellectual curiosity in your brain and research his belief in non violence that was responsible for inspiring a non violent movement. That makes lots of sense.


It wasn't going to stop with a few confederate statues.

I honestly can't tell if you are playing dumb here or just are dumb.



Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
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You do know there are ways to introduce stuff like this via a civilized forum, right?

BookTalk used to be one, or at least more of one. I'm outta here for a while.


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Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:23 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Ant, you're too angry about all of this to engage constructively right now. You're becoming abusive.



Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:10 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
LanDroid wrote:
Quote:
You do know there are ways to introduce stuff like this via a civilized forum, right?

BookTalk used to be one, or at least more of one. I'm outta here for a while.



What?

Oh - boo-hoo!! My echo chamber is not echoing properly anymore

What's wrong? Is my opinion that all the recent violence is the result of liberal brainwashing the same as committing violence against those who think it's not?

unbelievable!



Last edited by ant on Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:15 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
DWill wrote:
Ant, you're too angry about all of this to engage constructively right now. You're becoming abusive.



So when Geo calls my expressions about some of what's been happening in our nation "bullshit" that's not abusive?
That's not an angry tone?
That wasn't too long ago.. Got look it up.
Why didn't you call that abuse?

Go ahead and call for me to be banned. I don't care.
Or now that LanDroid is upset and I hurt his feelings with my political views he can censor me himself. He's a moderator.
To tell you the truth it won't surprise me in the least.



Last edited by ant on Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:28 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
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As for tearing down--destroying--the statues, if we decry such vandalism, we might think of how we react to pictures of newly liberated people in the former Soviet Union toppling images of Stalin. How many of us point disapproving fingers at that?


Are you comparing the current state of America as being the same as The Soviet Union under Stalin?

That we still nationally honor slavery and did not ever abolish it?

That we should cheer the violence being committed against innocents because we are living in a communist regime?

That we really did not have courts of law, or any lawful justice prior to Floyd?

That we do not have prisons/jails with people who have gone through a judicial processes that although not full proof, is better than anything we have seen in modern history to date, but instead have gulags filled with innocents?

This is not the same "picture"
What an odd thing to say.

Preposterous.s


Here is what Martin Luther King Jr said about violence as a path to justice


Quote:
Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. I am not unmindful of the fact that violence often brings about momentary results. Nations have frequently won their independence in battle. But in spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones. Violence is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding: it seeks to annihilate rather than convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends up defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.



Anyone who does not condemn this ongoing violence is complicit.



Last edited by ant on Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
Quick - switch up to pander to the liberal mob..

This is what happens when you let the intolerance of the left demand you agree with their communist ideology.

You become a literary performing artist, void of honesty.. on stage to recite the poetry that pleases the intolerant:

(same exact author - 2+ years apart)


Statues help us glimpse into our past, even the ugly bits:


https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/statues- ... y3yo5.html


The toppling of statues is enriching, not erasing history and it has thrilled my heart

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-top ... 5523r.html



Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:14 pm
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Post Re: Orwellian liberalism
ant wrote:
So an issue of police brutality is the time to air brush history?

Stop -- just stop, Geo.


Ant, you're making up a lot of strawmen on this thread.

Most of our Confederate monuments are essentially propaganda anyway. They were erected in the 1910s-1950s during a resurgence of race riots and civil unrest in our country and while some states were expanding Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise black Americans. I don't really see removal of these monuments as "air-brushing" history (nor an egregious offense against humankind).

I agree with what LanDroid posted. There are good arguments on both sides—for taking down the statues because they are symbols of oppression, and for leaving them in place as objects d’history of race relations in our nation.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 584267001/


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