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Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:52 pm
by LanDroid
DWill wrote:If they're willing to fund border security to the tune of 5.5 billion, it's stupid, or just nakedly political, to insist that none of that could be spent on fencing.
During the campaign, Donald Trump promised nearly on an hourly basis (and supporters chanted) "MEXICO WILL PAY FOR THE WALL!" American taxpayers should not be negotiating budgets for the wall, we should be demanding "Where are the Pesos!" Words matter. Actions matter more. Trump is too weak to make that happen. We must hold Trump to it!
#wherearethepesos

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:11 pm
by DWill
LanDroid wrote:
DWill wrote:If they're willing to fund border security to the tune of 5.5 billion, it's stupid, or just nakedly political, to insist that none of that could be spent on fencing.
During the campaign, Donald Trump promised nearly on an hourly basis (and supporters chanted) "MEXICO WILL PAY FOR THE WALL!" American taxpayers should not be negotiating budgets for the wall, we should be demanding "Where are the Pesos!" Words matter. Actions matter more. Trump is too weak to make that happen. We must hold Trump to it!
#wherearethepesos
Yes, everyone knows Mexico paying was bullshit.

Here's my reasoning on why the Democrats need to budge. We have already about 650 miles of some kind of barrier along the border. Democrats don't claim that all of this barrier is useless or shouldn't be maintained. It is conceivable that additional useful border fencing could be added, or, even if you insist that it all would be useless, why not compromise on that in order to avoid another shutdown? Recall also that less than a year ago, Democrats were willing to give Trump all the wall money he asked for--25 billion--in exchange for DACA protections and a path to citizenship. If they fund 5.5 billion now with most of it going for non-wall security, that seems a good deal to make. I hope they can reintroduce the DACA protections as well.

The public won't understand the Democrats' intransigence on zero wall funding. I'm also somewhat concerned that the Democrats might want to push Trump to declare an emergency in order to get his money from the military. That would not be a successful move for Trump, thus damaging him more politically. But the country would also suffer from the needless disruption.

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:56 pm
by ant
DWILL

We have already about 650 miles of some kind of barrier along the border. Democrats don't claim that all of this barrier is useless or shouldn't be maintained.
Granted that may be true, but can you point to any democrat that has talked specifically about maintaining, preserving, or upgrading any of the border security that's in place now, needs replacement, or needs security in place sooner rather than later?

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:03 pm
by LanDroid
^^ Quite a few bills have been written to do just that, but denied because they lack the $5.7 Billion USD from US taxpayers. IIRC these bills have passed the House and been put to sleep in the Senate.
DWill wrote:Yes, everyone knows Mexico paying was bullshit.
We cannot let that go so flippantly. To move from Mexico funding to shutting down the Gov't over US taxpayer funding is just beyond... Trump and his supporters disagree with your statement. A few days ago Ann Coulter stated Trump would extract funding from money immigrants send home to Mexico, enough to pay for the complete wall in ten years. All righty then, force Trump to detail status of Mexican payments and the plan moving forward. Or force Trump and his supporters to admit it was BS.
#wherearethepesos

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:43 pm
by ant
To her credit Coulter (not a Coulter reader) has withdrawn total support for Trump's pie-in-the-sky campaign promise about wall funding.
Such quixotic campaign promises are pretty common for both sides of the political spectrum.

Lefties are less likely to withdraw support from their chosen spokespersons even in the face of utter stupidity. We are seeing that now with Ocasio-Cortez.
It's likely due to the fact that lefties are much more wrapped up in self righteousness and gross over-simplifications.

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:08 pm
by DWill
ant wrote:
DWILL

We have already about 650 miles of some kind of barrier along the border. Democrats don't claim that all of this barrier is useless or shouldn't be maintained.
Granted that may be true, but can you point to any democrat that has talked specifically about maintaining, preserving, or upgrading any of the border security that's in place now, needs replacement, or needs security in place sooner rather than later?
What matters in terms of my argument is the absence of Democrats saying that the border wall is useless or that it should come down. I'm not aware that any have said that. That being the case, it doesn't make logical sense (not the same as political sense) for Democrats to hold fast to zero dollars for any new fencing. They could structure a bill in which a percentage of the 5.6 billion could be available for fencing if certain criteria were met. That would guarantee that only a very small amount of the wall that Trump wants would be built, which I realize you don't agree with. Perhaps it would be enough for Trump to save face. My main goal is to keep the government open. I would hold Democrats just as responsible as Trump if their refusal to offer anything caused another shutdown. They were willing to give him 25 billion 9 months ago. The facts haven't changed much since then. The only thing that has changed is that they control the House.

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:26 pm
by ant
I granted your argument as true.

What about my question now... do any elected democrats have a position with any substance about border security, or is attacking your opponents position a declaration that border security is a non issue?

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:03 pm
by DB Roy
Not one penny for a wall or fencing. Let Trump shut the govt down again. Let him. His presidency is dying anyway so let him deliver the coup de grace himself. Not one fucking penny, Not one!

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm
by DB Roy
DWill wrote: Yes, everyone knows Mexico paying was bullshit.
Then we shouldn't have elected him--period. Intelligent nations don't elect people they KNOW are lying. And being a stupid nation is no excuse.
Here's my reasoning on why the Democrats need to budge. We have already about 650 miles of some kind of barrier along the border. Democrats don't claim that all of this barrier is useless or shouldn't be maintained. It is conceivable that additional useful border fencing could be added, or, even if you insist that it all would be useless, why not compromise on that in order to avoid another shutdown?
Three reasons: 1) Because future presidents will threaten to shut down the govt anytime they want something that Congress is unwilling to give them. If it works for Trump then they won't hesitate to do it too. Why not? We'd be allowing Trump to hold the country hostage until his demands are met. This should be against the law but we had a kind of honor system where decent, civilized people don't shut down the govt. Trump is neither decent nor civilized and is ruining this government.

2) Trump promised--PROMISED--Mexico would pay for it. The promise being made must be kept. You're as bad as a Trump supporter when you say that it doesn't matter that he promised it. IT DOES MATTER!!!! Or why bother to listen to any candidate for president talk? Pick one by eenie-meenie-miney-mo because if we let them bullshit and elect them anyway and don't bother to penalize them for lying, they'll all do it and they'll keep doing it and we'll keep excusing it. That's a sick, sad nation that conducts itself in this way. Isn't that what all the Hillary-haters claimed they hated about her?? But it doesn't matter if Trump does it?? It DOES matter!! Mexico must pay. That was the deal and, by god, he's gonna stick to it!!!! IF the dems give one tiny fraction of an inch and fund one single steel slat, I WILL VOTE FOR TRUMP BEFORE I VOTE FOR A SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!!

3) To give in on the wall after we made him back off on it TWICE would be the very worst sort of gutlessness and cowardice ever shown in American politics and that's really saying something. It would be making Ann Coulter the de facto president.
Recall also that less than a year ago, Democrats were willing to give Trump all the wall money he asked for--25 billion--in exchange for DACA protections and a path to citizenship. If they fund 5.5 billion now with most of it going for non-wall security, that seems a good deal to make. I hope they can reintroduce the DACA protections as well.
They did that ONLY because they knew he wouldn't take it. Trump doesn't want to build the wall. Why do you think he keeps wimping out? He used the wall as a wedge issue that he hoped would deliver huge success in the midterms. If he accepted the offer, lazy ass conservatives wouldn't shown up at the polls. They barely did as it was. They were trying to prove that Trump really doesn't want to build the wall. I mean for christ's sake, he had two years of a republican-controlled congress to build that wall and never asked for a penny. But NOW it matters? I would think even a politician as bad as Trump knows that you make demands on Congress when it is the same party as you. That's how Clinton balanced the budget. That's how Obama got the ACA. But Trump waits until one half of Congress is dominated by the party he KNOWS perfectly well won't give a wall and then he starts demanding Congress fund his wall? And you want to reward this stupidity with a compromise??
The public won't understand the Democrats' intransigence on zero wall funding.
Where are you getting this from??? The public DOESN'T want it!

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/ ... all-227367

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pol ... 2d73efd31d
I'm also somewhat concerned that the Democrats might want to push Trump to declare an emergency in order to get his money from the military. That would not be a successful move for Trump, thus damaging him more politically. But the country would also suffer from the needless disruption.
In case it's escaped your notice, we've been is a continual state of disruption for two years now. It's time for the big showdown. It's time to settle this once and for all. No folding. It's time to lock horns. The matador must slay the bull. ONLY then will the disruption cease.

Re: The Art of No Deal

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:28 am
by Litwitlou
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The wall is the least of Trump's problems. The main purpose of the wall is too distract, to obfuscate and confusticate. Folks, because Trump says there's a crisis on the the Mexican border that would be licked by a wall does not mean there's a crises on the Mexican border that would be licked by a wall. I'm for border integrity. Of course this country should know who is entering and how. But compare the effects of illegal aliens crossing the southern border with the effects of people who enter legally then overstay their visas. Drugs are smuggled in through underground tunnels and legal points of entry. Why would Congress fund a project that is, at its core, a monument to Trump's ego?