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Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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DWill

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Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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With four U.S. servicemen having been killed by our so-called partners in the war against insurgents, we have to ask if there is really any hope in salvaging something from the long war in Afghanistan. The issue here isn't the stupidity of the soldiers who burned the holy books. The issue is that we're involved with an entire culture that finds killing for destruction of books to be a logical response. Is what we're trying to do there now just an evasion to avoid the appearance of cut-and-run? Can that possibly be worth the cost?
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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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I've always been supportive of going into Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks. However, I'm not sure what the long-term plan was. This is a backwards country and culture. If our plan was to install a western-style democracy there it was was not very well thought-out. Eventually we will limp out of there and leave the country in shambles .

For President Obama to apologize for the burning of the Koran is also ludicrous. Why should we try to appease people who think execution atones for the burning of books? Muslims in this part of the world are barbarians who think nothing of killing and maiming each other. We're apologizing to them? This is politically-correct nonsense.
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DWill

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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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But I don't fault Obama for the apology. We have a number of fulltime people in Afghanistan training our soldiers in cultural competency--the things you do and just do not do in that culture. We failed to follow our own policies, and for that an apology was in order, regardless of how we judged the expected reaction. If the apology had a chance of deterring fanatics from killing somebody's husband or son, then it was also worth making.
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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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I just wish we could be more honest about the real problem. Islam, or how Islam is lived today, is the real problem. Yes, the fanatics are an easy target but the moderates don't police their own religion, people and culture. They tolerate and often support the evil actions of these fanatics. Their tolerance, in my opinion, makes them almost as guilty.

Islam needs to change. But instead it is growing like a cancer.
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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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Chris OConnor wrote:I just wish we could be more honest about the real problem. Islam, or how Islam is lived today, is the real problem. Yes, the fanatics are an easy target but the moderates don't police their own religion, people and culture. They tolerate and often support the evil actions of these fanatics. Their tolerance, in my opinion, makes them almost as guilty.

Islam needs to change. But instead it is growing like a cancer.
DWill wrote:But I don't fault Obama for the apology. We have a number of fulltime people in Afghanistan training our soldiers in cultural competency--the things you do and just do not do in that culture. We failed to follow our own policies, and for that an apology was in order, regardless of how we judged the expected reaction. If the apology had a chance of deterring fanatics from killing somebody's husband or son, then it was also worth making.
I see your point. Obama was likely trying to quell further violence. There's another sort of dissociation with the reality of warfare. We send young men over there to kill the enemy. It's difficult to imagine the kind of detachment that a soldier must make to be able to kill while remaining professional. It's okay to kill them, but not to pee on their bodies.

It seems to me that Islam is where Christianity was a few hundred years ago, but it's not so much the religion itself that is the problem, but the culture which is comparatively primitive by western standards. And so their fringe—the fundamentalists—are worse than our fringe. They're still at the kill-the-infidel stage.

Is it true that Islam is growing like a cancer? I think it's tied to population growth. In the west, where populations are in decline, Christianity is also in decline. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions, but as soon as population peaks it will be in decline as well. So perhaps it's not so much a virulence of ideas that helps it to propagate.
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DWill

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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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The argument that moderates are part of the problem is the counter to the common contention that we should censure only the extremists in religion. I think it's Sam Harris who pushes this view the hardest. It's a serious charge that I struggle to accept. It appears to put us on the extreme route of zero tolerance for religion, which, whatever our personal feelings about religion may be, will be a collision course. Although it's true that moderates don't do enough to denounce and shun the extremists in their midst, for me the real-world solution is to work with and expand the moderate segment. Better yet, hope that moderates shade over into liberals, given time. Then we have a great lessening of the overall threat.

There needs to be more people like the church pastor I was on a bike ride with. He said he tells his people not to take religion too seriously, and to look at all the harm religion has done.
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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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geo wrote: It seems to me that Islam is where Christianity was a few hundred years ago, but it's not so much the religion itself that is the problem, but the culture which is comparatively primitive by western standards. And so their fringe—the fundamentalists—are worse than our fringe. They're still at the kill-the-infidel stage.

Is it true that Islam is growing like a cancer? I think it's tied to population growth. In the west, where populations are in decline, Christianity is also in decline. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions, but as soon as population peaks it will be in decline as well. So perhaps it's not so much a virulence of ideas that helps it to propagate.
It's true, as you say, that Christianity doesn't happen to have as much lunatic quality as Islam now has, but once did. Having read Prothero's God Is Not One, I also look at the differences in Islam that might make it an even more potent vehicle of extremism than Christianity was. Considering the scriptures, it appears that the proportion of violent, kill-the-infidels passages in the Koran is much greater than in the Christian Bible. This can be related to the historical circumstances in which Islam was forged, as you remember from Robert Wright. The moderate Muslims are forced to read these passages as ordering only spiritual warfare. Well, whatever works, I say. But it might be true that the task of moderating or liberalizing Islam is a tougher one than it was for Christianity.
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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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I've heard that Islam can't be reformed, but I suspect that as the culture matures, it would find ways to distance itself from the Koran's violent passages. The Bible is pretty dark and violent too. Many people consider it a Holy text, but they don't spend much time on all the beheadings and rapes in the Old Testament.
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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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DWill wrote:which, whatever our personal feelings about religion may be, will be a collision course. Although it's true that moderates don't do enough to denounce and shun the extremists in their midst, for me the real-world solution is to work with and expand the moderate segment. Better yet, hope that moderates shade over into liberals, given time. Then we have a great lessening of the overall threat.

There needs to be more people like the church pastor I was on a bike ride with. He said he tells his people not to take religion too seriously, and to look at all the harm religion has done.
yeah there should be a prime time tv show called "how dumb is my religion" where the absurdities of literalism are put on display and then maybe the saner more moderate members of that faith could have the last word.

i'm sure we could laugh fundies out of favour. like drawing a french moustache on hitler.

or maybe a show where a group of moderates and a group of extremists go on a cruise together and we get to see how much fun each group has. (instead of twisting by the pool it would be burqas by the pool) sort of like the love boat only with more hate.
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Re: Revenge killings for Koran Burning

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Yes, the fanatics are an easy target but the moderates don't police their own religion, people and culture. They tolerate and often support the evil actions of these fanatics. Their tolerance, in my opinion, makes them almost as guilty.
Chris - I was in Gambia just after the Twin Towers, and people here did not know about it, (no tv, no batteries for radio, no newspapers, etc) and then were absolutely shocked that their religion was being blamed for the atrocity. Islam is not the same everywhere, just as Christianity is not. People here are very tolerant. It is quite normal for a Christian child to attend a mosque to be with his friends, and vice versa.
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