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Fractured Faiths

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LanDroid

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Fractured Faiths

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Christianity is fracturing into many new divisions. Here is a rough draft outline of some of these changes. They cover a wide range of beliefs and moral systems including who belongs under the Christian umbrella. There's plenty of room for more categories or details on each one.

Catholicism
  • Traditional Catholicism after Vatican II.
  • Aulde Schoole Catholicism (my term) for those who reject Vatican II, attend mass in latin, and so on. They are in conflict with the following.
  • Pope Francis is attempting to modernize the church by opening it to divorced and civilly remarried members, immigration, outreach to gay catholics, restricting latin mass, and so on.
  • Opus Dei or “Work of God” is a movement to implement christian ideals in occupations and general society. That sounds OK on the surface, but carries new meaning when five SCOTUS justices are members. (Barrett, Roberts, Thomas, Kavanaugh, Alito)
Protestants
  • Fundamentalists – those who believe everything in the Bible is literally true including a 6 day creation = 144 hours, the Noah’s Ark story, etc.
  • Mainstream denominations such as Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc.
  • There are many, many segments of the Baptist denomination. There are even more splits based on LGBT issues.
  • Almost 6000 churches have split from the Methodist denomination over LGBT issues.
  • Conservative groups that believe God is using Trump to accomplish Christian goals. They are abandoning traditional principles to follow an authoritarian in pursuit of power. 7 Mountains Dominionism is one example.
  • A small number of ultra-conservative churches that believe Trump is The Messiah.
  • Televangelists who are openly scamming members while promoting fundamentalism. (Huge media visibility in the US)
  • Liberal churches that are open to LGBT issues and immigration. Certain sectors of the Episcopal church for example. (Scant media visibility in the US)
  • Mormons (Latter Day Saints) There are several divisions. Some ultra-conservative groups still practice polygamy.
  • Jehovah's Witnesses
  • Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, and other "special interests" if you will.
Nones
  • The bickering behind this splintering may be part of the rapid increase in folks with a vague spiritual faith, but no institutional affiliation.
  • Agnostics and atheists are excluded from this category for this discussion since they have left these fractured faiths.
_______________________________________________________
When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
Isaiah 1:15

But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Fractured Faiths

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LanDroid wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2023 1:54 pm Christianity is fracturing into many new divisions. Here is a rough draft outline of some of these changes. They cover a wide range of beliefs and moral systems including who belongs under the Christian umbrella. There's plenty of room for more categories or details on each one.
I continue to see myself as Christian, but from a completely new perspective. Here are some comments I have made in recent religious discussions on Facebook. The bertierussell comments are public while the mythvision comments are private.

Faith is what we assume to be true. Like all beliefs and values, faith exists on a spectrum from false to true, as Plato argued with the divided line in The Republic. As with knowledge, the objective test for the truth of faith is coherence with evidence and logic. However, faith also has a poetic and mythic dimension, providing meaning and cohesion and connection. Stories that are factually incorrect can have faith value as allegorical markers of deeper intuited truth. link https://www.facebook.com/groups/mythvis ... 3013441592

In human consciousness, the universe comes to reflect upon itself. This is the deeper meaning and purpose of the old Bible idea that we are made in the image of God. Language has the supreme complex power of revealing and creating truth and shared direction. The meaning of life is the good of the future. Our purpose is to flourish. https://www.facebook.com/russellbertie/ ... 3529107135

The appeal of the Gospel story is clear - God walks on Earth in history to redeem the world, with plausible miraculous fantasy pushing all the buttons of what people wanted to believe. As John 20:31 explains “these things were written in order that you may believe”. https://www.facebook.com/groups/mythvis ... 2963459597

The fundamental agenda was to answer the question, what would the messiah have done if he had actually lived. This gave the impetus and direction to Mark’s gospel, which only later came to be seen as literal history since it keyed in so well to such strong emotional and political sentiments. https://www.facebook.com/groups/mythvis ... 7993460094

The key to the timing in my view is the astronomy. The March equinox precessed across the first fish of Pisces in 21 AD, moving from the constellation of Aries into Pisces, defining the natural alpha and omega point in the stars as symbolised in the chi rho cross. That was predictable for centuries in advance to decadal resolution. It reflects the invention of Jesus Christ as the avatar of the zodiac age of Pisces, as a personification of the Sun. This hypothesis coheres with and explains all available evidence for Christian origins. The deliberate obliteration of this celestial scaffolding for the Christ Myth was part of the campaign by orthodox literalism to suppress heresy. This campaign was largely successful, while leaving abundant fugitive traces. https://www.facebook.com/groups/mythvis ... 2273476666

The Gospels have a logical causal dependency on the Epistles, enfleshing a historical back story on to the bare bones of the revealed celestial Christ of Paul. The memoirs of the apostles are mentioned by Justin in 150 AD, but the four gospels appear with Irenaeus in 180 AD. Just as nylon bacteria evolved since its first encounter with nylon, so too the Christ Myth evolved over a long time, with the literal historicism of Mark only appearing as a late culmination of a long cultural process, seen in the Hebrew prophets, Egyptian and Indian and Babylonian myth, and in Greek philosophy. The whole process of personifying the Sun provides antecedents in cultural evolution for the Christ Myth.
Christianity has strong Buddhist, Egyptian and Babylonian influences that were suppressed by the Western domination of Christendom. These eastern influences brought much of the solar dimension in the original construction of the myth. https://www.facebook.com/groups/mythvis ... 4976815729

Christianity can evolve to become compatible with evolution by recognising that all its supernatural and miraculous and literal beliefs are allegory for natural processes. That is a substantial and necessary mutation for faith. I see God as a psychological construction, not a personal intentional entity. A construction has social power, even though what it describes exists only in imagination. So it is not about wiggling God into existence via allegory, but rather suggesting that Christianity can reform to become compatible with scientific knowledge. Christianity is mutant Judaism. It needs to mutate again to adapt to the modern world by becoming compatible with science. The resurrection of Jesus is a personified allegory for the movements of the Sun. The reason for a supernatural God is that this story provides emotional comfort for people who are not intellectual. The allegory places the story into a popular form that most people can understand. https://www.facebook.com/russellbertie/ ... 8247582511
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LanDroid

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Re: Fractured Faiths

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Well you're certainly in a unique category Mr. Tulip. 😁

I s'pose the list I generated isn't as interesting as expected, but I wanted to point out there are new divisions and Christianity will likely continue to splinter. Many of these are newcomers are divided based on LGBT, Trump, and how fervently they seek political power. Division is a better word than denomination as most of these believe all the others are not merely incorrect, they are eternally damned...
_______________________________________________________
When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you multiply your prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
Isaiah 1:15

But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21: 23 - 25
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LanDroid

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Re: Fractured Faiths

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In addition to the fracturing of traditional religions into smaller incompatible factions, there is the rise of the "Nones" mentioned above. Stated from the religious perspective, this is called "The Great Dechurching." Shrinking and splintering is a steep rocky path of decline in influence and power. When those seeking political dominance begin to understand this they will become increasingly frustrated, abandon their superficial morality to grab power, and possibly turn to violence.
More people have left the church in the last twenty-five years than all the new people who became Christians from the First Great Awakening, Second Great Awakening, and Billy Graham crusades combined,” Davis and Graham write in their new book, “The Great Dechurching: Who’s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will It Take to Bring Them Back?”
9/7/23
https://religionnews.com/2023/09/07/the ... us-exodus/
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Fractured Faiths

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LanDroid wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:54 am Well you're certainly in a unique category Mr. Tulip. 😁

I s'pose the list I generated isn't as interesting as expected, but I wanted to point out there are new divisions and Christianity will likely continue to splinter. Many of these are newcomers are divided based on LGBT, Trump, and how fervently they seek political power. Division is a better word than denomination as most of these believe all the others are not merely incorrect, they are eternally damned...
I don't think we are going to get progress from new divisions that continue to accept basic false assumptions from traditional religion. I think of God as a popular simplification of what are actually highly complex natural anthropic processes. As such, the basis of theism is not entirely rational, but rather reflects human psychological and social needs.

If we posit a definition of God as "everything that promotes human flourishing", then it is reasonable to observe that the belief in God can be included within this definition, where such belief adheres to sound principles of ethics and logic. Joining together to discuss how we can flourish can be facilitated by invoking an almighty blessing upon this activity, and by constructing an elaborate mythology of the attributes of this almighty support.

Admittedly, this is somewhat circular and illogical, a social rather than a scientific justification for belief. It is rather like Anselm's famous ontological fallacy, explained at the link below, that an existing God is better than a fake God and therefore must exist. And yet the social, personal and political benefits of the belief that everything that promotes flourishing can be referred to with the simplified shorthand description of "God" are considerable.

I understand that many people who have had the difficult experience of having delusional religion inflicted upon them will observe that bad religion does not promote flourishing. That is a sound criticism of religious practice, but not of the underlying purpose of religion, to connect people together to improve society.

Even though I believe that Jesus Christ is entirely fictional, I think the Gospel process of messianic invention - imagining what a saviour would do - has immense enduring value that can benefit from suspending disbelief in God.
https://iep.utm.edu/anselm-ontological-argument/
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Fractured Faiths

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Analysis of language about God requires extensive contextualisation to understand the meaning of what is claimed. The empirical evidence must start from the social placement of belief. Speaking of a "rational basis" for any belief can address both whether the belief is true and whether it is useful, along the lines of Gibbon's comment on the Roman philosophers and magistrates. Obviously, from an objective scientific perspective, truth is primary. And yet, we cannot say the practical ethical interests of the magisterium are irrational, where religious belief can be seen to serve valuable social goals. Nor can we automatically assume that the false literal content of statements exhausts their meaning, given the extensive use of parable in religion. And as I explain below, a utilitarian view of God can serve the interests of social transformation and liberation.

Part of this issue is that atheism is mainly suited to an educated elite, who see their identity in individual rather than in tribal terms. For the overwhelming majority, termed by Gibbon "the people, who see all religion as true", tribal identity is the foundational cultural and epistemic assumption, and the idea that we can have a shared rational explanation of the universe appears quite arrogant.

The idea of God is used in religion to argue that reality is actually quite different from how it appears to us. But the nature of this difference is highly contested. It seems for everyday life that there is no God, given the absence of miracles, but religion asserts that this immediate perception is mistaken. My view is that the mistake made here is primarily by religious dogma, which takes its consensus that God is personal and intentional as an emotional assumption. Playing to the popular desire for an underlying magical explanation of reality, and for validation of the social structure, dogma rejects any suggestion that its consensus could actually be founded in the motivated reasoning of psychological desire and personal interests rather than actual revelation. But this raises the problem of what in nature gave rise to these assumptions about the alleged personal and intentional attributes of God.

Saint Paul said in his hymn to love, ‘now we see through a glass darkly but then face to face (1 Cor 13:12). This can be turned against literalism. The dogmatic assumptions that God is personal and intentional are examples of a blurred vision of an underlying reality. Necessary for a simplified ignorant popular mythology, these claims do not stand up to empirical scrutiny. On this model, to see God face to face would mean recognising that God is pure allegory for natural processes. The attributes religion has attributed to God actually belong to the laws of physics, which are eternal, infinite and omnipotent. The additional hypothesis that evolution is somehow anthropic, with an inherent tendency of living systems to promote greater complexity, can provide the basis for the attribution of omnibenevolence to God.

My view is that much of the confusion surrounding Christianity has its origins in the clash between messianic and imperial versions of faith. The messianic tradition calls Christians to be like Christ and to seek to transform the world through a social vision of salvation, with heaven seen as a possible future on earth governed by love, justice, truth, mercy and peace. By contrast, the imperial tradition calls Christians to support state stability through a purely personal vision of salvation in an imaginary heavenly afterlife, making only superficial moral criticisms of culture in personal rather than structural terms.

This tension has far-reaching implications. It enables us to read the Gospels in messianic terms, seeing the crucifixion of Christ as the imperial suppression of truth. Messianic Christianity accepts scientific truth and sees all religious language as allegorical, while imperial Christianity rejects the primacy of science and sees religious language as literal and otherworldly. Jesus hints at this with his comment that the secrets of the kingdom are reserved for initiates (Matt 13). The implication is that messianic Christianity is ethical and Biblical while imperial Christianity is corrupt and self-serving. Gospel parables such as the wheat and tares (Matt 13:24-30) can be read to say that the weeds of imperial Christianity will dominate the world but will eventually be replaced by the original messianic true vision. Atheism provides a profound critique of imperial Christianity, but not of messianic Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Histo ... man_Empire
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