Self-Critical Religion...Holding Faith Accountable.

[Dissident Heart]

I thought it would valuable to introduce a few Religious scholars who have written extensively about the abuses of Religion. They have applied a thoroughly critical lens to the shams, scams, stupidities, violence and brutalities of their own Religious communties and others. They have not hidden behind any sort of 'taboo' boundaries where criticism is not welcome, and have bravely confronted those scriptures, traditions, voices and dogmas that have led to cultural degradation, planetary violation, and personal imprisonment.And, they have found a more down-to-earth and empowering Faith that is not afraid of confronting leaders and gurus or sacred texts and cows...but actually embodies an imperfect love that works to seek peace, act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with their God.Is Religion Killing Us?: Violence in the Bible and the Quran by Jack Nelson-Pallmeyerand Sexism and God-Talk by Rosemary Radford RuetherandChristianity: Essence, History, and Futureby Hans Kung andProgressive Muslims: On Justice, Gender, and Pluralism by Omid SafiAnd, of course, there is plenty food for critical thought captured in the link "Liberation Theology" here at Booktalk.

[Mr. P]

Well this is encouraging. But my main argument is that if faith's change, how valid is/was the word of God? Is he such a bad communicator that he cannot even talk to his CHILDREN!?Is religion just a tool for a happy life, or is it God's word? Do you believe there a 'phisical' god, or is it just a representation of hope?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

[Dissident Heart]

If Faith is living, it grows and evolves and adapts to the shifting world it encounters...and if it operates from a vibrant center of love, it can lovingly shape, compose, and revolutionize that world as well. I don't see how a developing Faith that matures over time reflects anything but an intelligent, but flawed, process.You may, or have borrowed, a rather immature view of the 'Word of God' as though it was spoken once and for all, forever and all times...which would lead to a verdict that a developing Faith is impossible. I see the issue as a continuous conversation in life-long debate, discussion, argument, song, and occasional silence.The list I offer here explores the shadow side of the equation...fearlessly, unflinchingly and determinedly. In any case, the same can be said of your God, "Reason"....how could such a deity do such a poor job in getting its word across to a world so immersed in irrational nonsense?Cheers.

[Mr. P]

Reason is not a deity...if you want to continue to use it as such, what can I do, but it is not conducive to keeping our POV's separate. Out of respect, I would never refer to God as reasonable! I think it is great that those of faith would distance themselves to the ridiculous past that has been blind faith. It does show a willingness to grow and that is super. I will explore some of these sources. They seem interesting.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

[Mr. P]

Quote:But, I would like to hear your response to my turning of the tables of traditional 'theodicy' as a challenge to Reason....how to explain such irrational stupidities and utter lunacy in the world- why does Reason allow such a sad and sorry state of affairs?Because the mind is not perfect. Why would God allow it?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.Edited by: misterpessimistic at: 7/8/04 6:36 pm

[Dissident Heart]

Well, I think my deific reference to your idea of 'Reason' alluded to your own earlier attachment to certain omnipotent and eternal powers...an earlier thread I believe.And, I wouldnt reduce God to mere Reason either...which would be tantamount to reducing the Sea to Salt....or the Sky to the color Blue...or the Sun to a lot of Gas.......Nor would I inflate Reason to the collossal mystery of God.But, I would like to hear your response to my turning of the tables of traditional 'theodicy' as a challenge to Reason....how to explain such irrational stupidities and utter lunacy in the world- why does Reason allow such a sad and sorry state of affairs?

[Dissident Heart]

Quote:Because the mind is not perfect.I'm interested in pursuing what you mean by 'mind' and its relation to 'reason', and then, obviously, what 'perfection' means in this context.My earlier discussion with thehivequeen was an attempt to examine the very complex world of minds, boides, ecosystems, histories, etc....and the fairly arbitrary ways in which we say "This starts here, and that ends there"...I suppose the word 'arbitrary' is misleading. As I see it, these kinds of demarcations of 'self' and 'other' are deeply ethical issues, decided upon largely as matters of taste, but best understood through actual behavior...i.e., acts that hold the relationship together, or tear it apart.As for your question, which is the age-old issue of 'theodicy'...I don't have an answer. Everything I come up with will be more a matter of poetic imagination and moral indignation than any sign of real understanding. In Christianity, there is a strong traditional element that describes God as participating in the evil, enduring it in an all-too-human context, living through it, resisting it, and being crucified by it.But, as the wondrous mystery of existence seems to be, evil does not have the last word...rather, love does.Again, I think the best answer in the face of theodicy involves actions that actually, in the flesh and blood of everyday people, love the evil act into a healing justice and peaceful reconcilliation...involving truth-telling, confession, and forgiveness.

[Dissident Heart]

Christianity, Anti-Semitism and the HolocaustFor anyone interested, there has been a great deal of work done (obviously not near enough) by Christians who want to take responsibility for the role of the Churches, the New Testament, Theology, and Christianity is general in the millenia of anti-Semitism in Europe, and the Holocaust specifically.Three excellent books come to mind immediately:Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews -- A Historyby James CarrollandJudaism: Between Yesterday and Tomorrow by Hans KungandWho Killed Jesus? : Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesusby John Dominic CrossanEach book is written by a Christian who confronts this terribly dark history in Christianity and demands the truth be told so that healing can begin.These authors represent the kinds of Christians who take terribly seriously the demand that we remove the beam from our own eye before bombing our brother for the speck of dust in his. They represent the kind of Christianity that sees the Gospel as a radical tool for truth telling, justice seeking, and healing.Not justification to bomb and decimate the heathens, or Jews, at the gate.

[Chris OConnor]

Quote:I'm interested in pursuing what you mean by 'mind' and its relation to 'reason', and then, obviously, what 'perfection' means in this context.No wonder misterpessimistic never responded to this ridiculous example of pseudo-intellectualism. Four months have gone by since you first presented it. Are you really looking to understand what Nick meant by these terms, or are you hoping to trap him in some sort of semantics game? Are you seriously confused as to the relationship between mind and reason? Perhaps it's time for you to join in on one of the book discussions here. These type of questions are addressed regularly by our book selections. And you were confused by his use of the term perfection? The context was difficult and subject to vastly different interpretations?Chris "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." - Nelson Mandella

[Dissident Heart]

I'll wait for Mr. P. to speak for himself on the matter.As for 'pseudo intellectualism', I'll add it to the others you manage to send my direction...and I'll imagine them fluttering into the wake of the Ferry that carreid me across the Puget Sound yesterday- like the gorgeous rain storm that completely engulfed the ride. Perhaps you'd be willing to point out the intellectual veracity of the authors and their books I've offered as starting points in this link- or the value and importance of their efforts to hold their respective Religious traditions accountable for the damage they cause and mistakes they make? Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 11/4/04 5:36 pm