Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:33 pm





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next
HD- XII- The ending of the novella. 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 35 times in 35 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post HD- XII- The ending of the novella.
XII- The ending of the novella.


The last pages: Marlow returns to Brussels, and meets Kurtz's Intended.



1- We agreed earlier that female characters were not devoped in
Heart of Darkness.

So, what does Kurtz's Intended symbolize?



2- What do you think of the ending?


Does it add anything to the novella?


Could Heart of Darkness have ended in Africa after Kurtz's death?


_________________
Ophelia.


Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:32 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post 
>1- We agreed earlier that female characters were not devoped in
Heart of Darkness.

Does Conrad ever develop female characters?

>So, what does Kurtz's Intended symbolize?

She symbolizes the illusion of sanity in a world of madness.

>2- What do you think of the ending?

It is effective.

>Does it add anything to the novella?
>Could Heart of Darkness have ended in Africa after Kurtz's death?

No, one enters the river labyrinth of darkness in order to come out of it.

Tom



Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:53 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 35 times in 35 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
Hello Thomas, Welcome to Booktalk. :smile:

Thanks for your input.

Would you like to tell us a little about yourself by writing in the "Introduce Yourseld" thread ?


_________________
Ophelia.


Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:00 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post 
Ophelia, I have no idea where the "Introduce Yourself" thread is, so
I will do so here.

66, unmarried, Wyse Fork, NC, BA literature, veteran, theory of meaning,
Chinese metaphysics, Walden. I have done origin research on King Wen's
sequence and the composition of the Dao De Jing.

I believe that the humanities make us humane and that Ophelia
(in Hamlet) dies because her feminine sanity blocked the descent
of the play into foredoomed chaos.

I was in Eritrea in the early 60's and have a firsthand experience of
The Heart of Darkness -- disease, corruption, brutality, starvation, . . . .
but that was then and this is now.

I'm right about Conrad's deficiency with female characters, aren't I?
I really don't know.

Tom



Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:08 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 35 times in 35 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
Hello again Thomas,


I've tried to move your introduction posting to "Introduce yourself", but the entire thread moved with it.

For the moment I'll leave it at this, what matters is that other members see that you have arrived, and also now you can see our introductions.

I've pasted what you wrote about Heart of Darkness into the thread " Women in HD".

Explore our forums, and if you have any questions just ask them.

I'm looking forward to discussing books and ideas with you. :smile:


_________________
Ophelia.


Last edited by Ophelia on Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:50 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
I can has reading?

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2954
Location: Leesburg, VA
Thanks: 481
Thanked: 398 times in 302 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Welcome Thomas!



Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:03 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5832
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2289
Thanked: 2217 times in 1675 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
Thomas Hood wrote:
Ophelia, I have no idea where the "Introduce Yourself" thread is, so I will do so here. 66, unmarried, Wyse Fork, NC, BA literature, veteran, theory of meaning, Chinese metaphysics, Walden. I have done origin research on King Wen's sequence and the composition of the Dao De Jing. I believe that the humanities make us humane and that Ophelia (in Hamlet) dies because her feminine sanity blocked the descent of the play into foredoomed chaos. I was in Eritrea in the early 60's and have a firsthand experience of The Heart of Darkness -- disease, corruption, brutality, starvation, . . . . but that was then and this is now. I'm right about Conrad's deficiency with female characters, aren't I? I really don't know. Tom


Hello Thomas, welcome, and thank you for finding this thread. We had a good discussion about Heart of Darkness, and could usefully review it, especially this theme of Conrad's relation to the feminine. You seem to be saying that the lack of feminine restraint in European colonialism was a factor in the tragedy of the Congo and Africa more broadly. I confess I have not studied Hamlet closely, but you are right that it is an archetype of foredoomed chaos, and that this theme broods around Heart of Darkness too. In Hamlet, was Ophelia perhaps like a protestor before a tank, standing against big historical forces? The only other Conrad book I have read is The Secret Agent, in which the wife is bewildered before the high deluded politics of her secretive husband.
I am interested in your comment 'that was then and this is now' given Conrad is writing more than a century ago and you were in Eritrea 45 years ago...
What is King Wen's sequence? I think of Conrad's use of the Thames and the Congo in a Taoist way. There is this sense in which an inevitable destiny is working itself out, with Kurtz its ugly manifestation.
Is Kurtz like Lear? Does his beloved have anything of a Cordelia or Goneril or Regen about her? Was Europe's invasion the Tao of the Congo, or an aberrant infliction that could have been otherwise?



Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:01 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post 
Sorry I missed the discussion, Robert. I came here following the trail of Sakis Totlis, whose book _The True Eye of the Tiger_ (available as a free download) I admire.

See the King Wen sequence at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram_(I_Ching)

>You seem to be saying that the lack of feminine restraint in European colonialism was a factor in the tragedy of the Congo and Africa more broadly.

Let's say empathetic awareness. I think the controlling forces were more fundamental than greed. Kurtz is multi-talented, charismatic, an ideal of western culture, but when tested by solitude (alone with his self), " he was hollow at the core. . . ." This inner absence of being is the viewpoint of Dark Romanticism. It is a metaphysical position, and that is why I think Conrad had to discount the feminine in what appears to me to be a war with the feminine aspect of himself.

Ophelia was driven to suicide by the irrationality of the world around her.

>There is this sense in which an inevitable destiny is working itself out, with Kurtz its ugly manifestation.

Some believe that "The Heart of Darkness" was prophetic of the coming world war.

>Was Europe's invasion the Tao of the Congo, or an aberrant infliction that could have been otherwise?

My opinion is that we are actors in the Play of History but don't write the script. Considering how unaware we are of ourselves, I don't see how events could have been otherwise.

Tom



Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:12 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5832
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 2289
Thanked: 2217 times in 1675 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
Thomas Hood wrote:
Sorry I missed the discussion, Robert. I came here following the trail of Sakis Totlis, whose book _The True Eye of the Tiger_ (available as a free download) I admire. See the King Wen sequence at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram_(I_Ching) >You seem to be saying that the lack of feminine restraint in European colonialism was a factor in the tragedy of the Congo and Africa more broadly. Let's say empathetic awareness. I think the controlling forces were more fundamental than greed. Kurtz is multi-talented, charismatic, an ideal of western culture, but when tested by solitude (alone with his self), " he was hollow at the core. . . ." This inner absence of being is the viewpoint of Dark Romanticism. It is a metaphysical position, and that is why I think Conrad had to discount the feminine in what appears to me to be a war with the feminine aspect of himself. Ophelia was driven to suicide by the irrationality of the world around her. >There is this sense in which an inevitable destiny is working itself out, with Kurtz its ugly manifestation. Some believe that "The Heart of Darkness" was prophetic of the coming world war. >Was Europe's invasion the Tao of the Congo, or an aberrant infliction that could have been otherwise? My opinion is that we are actors in the Play of History but don't write the script. Considering how unaware we are of ourselves, I don't see how events could have been otherwise. Tom

Hi Tom, I like your idea of Conrad as fatalistic. Your comment on the Play of History is interesting, in that the self image of European Civilization was of controlling and subduing nature, and fate is infuriating to the rationalist project. Conrad drew attention to the absurdity of this impiety towards fate, which has roots in the Bible and Plato. The listless shelling of the wilderness is one example of Conrad's ironic treatment of the western mind, but that is just an introduction to Kurtz where the insanity of Genesis is revealed in full gory glory. In Genesis 1:28 God said to Adam and Eve, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it." To my interpretation, this toxic idea of dominion as the image of God was the start of the fall towards modern alienation as depicted in Heart of Darkness. King Leopold of Belgium thought he wrote the script, and Kurtz was his strange puppet dancing to a perverse set of strings. Conrad seems to present old Tao Congo as more powerful than the colonialists. The 'Dark Romantic' reminds me of Nietzsche's line that God is Dead, and the various strands of nihilism. I don't think Conrad is at war with the feminine, but rather is somehow representing the feminine in a mockery of masculine conquest. I found the Sakis Toklis commentary on the I Ching at http://www.sakistotlis.gr/english/c.%20philosophy/c.2%20i%20ching/a%20text(s)%20i%20ching.htm



Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:54 am
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post 
>Hi Tom, I like your idea of Conrad as fatalistic.

As I read Conrad: History can't be helped because we possess a dark (yin: feminine) center, an Inner Station within our hearts of darkness, that is beyond rational (yang: masculine) control -- Freud's view of the unconscious.

>Your comment on the Play of History is interesting, in that the self image of European Civilization was of controlling and subduing nature, and fate is infuriating to the rationalist project. Conrad drew attention to the absurdity of this impiety towards fate, which has roots in the Bible and Plato. The listless shelling of the wilderness is one example of Conrad's ironic treatment of the western mind, but that is just an introduction to Kurtz where the insanity of Genesis is revealed in full gory glory. In Genesis 1:28 God said to Adam and Eve, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it." To my interpretation, this toxic idea of dominion as the image of God was the start of the fall towards modern alienation as depicted in Heart of Darkness.

I would say, Robert, that indeed Genesis has been used as an invitation to the destruction of nature, yet the ideal implicit in Genesis is the opposite: Genesis begins with creation, an invocation of the dark center, which man as an image of God is to follow (In the beginning God created. . .). Conrad's creative power arises from the darkness within himself.

God sees what He has made (wild nature) and says that it is good. Implicitly, it shouldn't be destroyed or 'harvested', and it is not the locus of evil (the home of the dark man in Hawthorne, the serpent-man in Genesis). Then, too, Adam and Eve (or Tarzan and Jane in modern adaptation) initially live at one with the animals, the emblems of human passion. The fall is a fall from 'jungle as friend' to 'jungle as enemy' and a loss of self awareness.

'Going native', the power of wilderness to strip off the veneer of civilization, is a common theme (Typee, Lord of the Flies). Crusoe sustained European ideals perhaps because, until he had hardened himself, he was totally alone.

>King Leopold of Belgium thought he wrote the script, and Kurtz was his strange puppet dancing to a perverse set of strings. Conrad seems to present old Tao Congo as more powerful than the colonialists. The 'Dark Romantic' reminds me of Nietzsche's line that God is Dead, and the various strands of nihilism.

Leopold seems especially evil only because he was caught late in the game by the corrective force of reports like The Heart of Darkness and The Casement Report. He wasn't much different from colonizers throughout history. He only reduced the population of the Congo by half. Frequently colonists exterminate and replace.

>I don't think Conrad is at war with the feminine, but rather is somehow representing the feminine in a mockery of masculine conquest.

Look at _Amy Foster_, available at Gutenberg. There is also a defense of Conrad's women at

[PDF] 1 Conrad, Women, and the Critics - Apr 27File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Conrad, Women, and the Critics. Nothing is more familiar to readers of Joseph Conrad than the. image of the author as a lonely seafarer, drawing on the mem- ...
www.oup.co.uk/pdf/0-19-818448-4.pdf

About _The True Eye of the Tiger_, Sakis is a member here but doesn't believe in tooting his own horn, and his book has been unjustly neglected. I have his permission to publicize it.

Tom



Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:53 am
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6365
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 1850
Thanked: 2038 times in 1543 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Robert Tulip and Thomas Hood have an interesting dicsussion going on these questions, unfortuately a bit above my head.
I know we discussed the female characters issue, but I find it difficult to make much of this in HD. There is Marlow and there is Kurtz. We can certainly call Marlow well developed, but Kurtz is not well developed in the sense of a traditional character in a novel. We have a bunch of other male characters (in a naturally male-centered environment), some of whom are sharply drawn, but not extensively developed, either. We have the African woman who apparently was devoted to Kurtz. She was certainly memorable and powerfully depicted. Well developed? No, she didn't have that much time on stage.
What can we make of this lack of character development--male and female--in a book of around 100 pages that is so much about the subjective states of the narrator? Not very much, would be my dissenting view. Thanks for reading.
DWill



Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:07 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post 
Will, I think you have put your finger on a fundamental issue. Character development isn't a matter of space and time. It's a matter of unstated depth. Conrad did more with less.

Tom



Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:54 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6365
Location: Luray, Virginia
Thanks: 1850
Thanked: 2038 times in 1543 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Thomas Hood, that was a generous comment, because I think you put your finger on a concept of character development that I wasn't very close to realizing. Nice job.
Will



Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:45 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
One more post ought to do it.

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3257
Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 329
Thanked: 675 times in 521 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United Kingdom (uk)

Post 
I have read all of this thread carefully. It is way above my head - but I would just like to point out that Dickens - hailed as a great writer...could not write women....they were either whores or angels.

Arnold Bennett - of lesser renown and not allowed to enter the Bloomsbury Group.....wrote women wonderfully well....Hilda Lessways - Clayhanger......

I don't quite agree with Virginia Woolf when she said a writer should be androgeonous.....because it is so wonderful when you read a man....who can write a woman so well. Ergo....it is a matter of understanding and accepting the gender differences....not fighting against the fact...not trying to prove that there is no difference......different but equal.

The world was, and is, out of balance.....

Most of recorded religion, ie belief systems.....were male orientated....the feminine aspect was secondary.....the female aspect should be equal.

I have read that the search for the 'Holy Grail' as in the Arthurian legends...was merely symbolic of the search for the female aspect of the Godhead???? But it failed, didn't it?



Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:28 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 35 times in 35 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
What has been written was also way above my head, so I read carefully, which is all I could do. :smile:


_________________
Ophelia.


Thu May 01, 2008 12:43 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

Announcements 

• Promote Your Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:33 pm

• Promote Your Non-Fiction Book on BookTalk.org
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:18 pm



Site Resources 
HELPFUL INFO:
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!

IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

PROMOTE YOUR BOOK!
Advertise on BookTalk.org
How To Promote Your Book





BookTalk.org is a thriving book discussion forum, online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a community. Our forums are open to anyone in the world. While discussing books is our passion we also have active forums for talking about poetry, short stories, writing and authors. Our general discussion forum section includes forums for discussing science, religion, philosophy, politics, history, current events, arts, entertainment and more. We hope you join us!


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSOUR BOOKSAUTHOR INTERVIEWSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICYSITEMAP

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2019. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank