MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon--yepGenryu:: yes as Michael says and other examplesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you are in a group that sees liberals as acceptable, you're luckyMeme Wars:: Well, as of now due to the passing of Asimov and Sagan, you are now at my lonely top of the list. That is why I asked you to include other names.Richard Dawkins:: Cinnamon, you need to choose better friendsGenryu:: lolcinnamon321:: They're not friends...just people in my classes.Richard Dawkins:: Meme Wars, I think Pinker belongs on your listcinnamon321:: Pinkers books will be classics someday I think.Chris OConnor:: RD - That makes me feel good...knowing we read Pinker next.Richard Dawkins:: How old are your friends who think liberal is a dirty word?Meme Wars:: Well, I have included Pinker just recently.cinnamon321:: Anywhere from 20-50Gluepot and Fatass:: Richard, which books would you recommend on POSTMODERNISM?Chris OConnor:: Tim!!!! Oh no....ZombieHatesYou:: I read an interesting article in a paper here ( I can't remember which it was, sorry) about the 'new conservatives' in America...college kids dressing like how liberals are supposed to look, or something, and running around furthering extreme conservative views.Richard Dawkins:: I don't think postmodernism existsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--I read that oneChris OConnor:: RD - Gluepot (aka Tim) is our resident postmodernist ZombieHatesYou:: I got worried, Michael. How will I tell the tree huggers from the gay bashers if they all dress the same? MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "postmodernism" is almost an epithet now, meaning "relativity in all things and no firm standard"Meme Wars:: I live in a very liberal state (Washington State, home of Seattle) and even there the conservative environment is taking over. Liberal here even has a bad name.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol zombieGenryu:: that's just bizarre Zombie lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: meme--me tooGluepot and Fatass:: Many do though, and I think its important to understand the arguments....I don't think I have a good enough grasp on them.ZombieHatesYou:: Twas, Genryu. I saved the article. I'll mail it to you.cinnamon321:: I prefer moderate above liberal and conservative.Chris OConnor:: Gluepot - and you very well never have a grasp on them. They are extremely slippery.Genryu:: those I've come across RD are mostly young but from all ages groupsRichard Dawkins:: Yes, moderte is OKChris OConnor:: Cinnamon - me tooMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moderate is "liberal" now. "Liberal" is "communist".Genryu:: tell them the tree's male Zombieconanlee:: Richard, could I have your email address? Mine is
[email protected] or
[email protected] OConnor:: I am considered a moderate. I'm socially liberal and financially conservative...Meme Wars:: Same here Chris.Chris OConnor:: Conan - I'm not sure posting that in this chat room would be in his next interestGenryu:: Conan maybe it's not a good idea to do that in open chatZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: Would certainly cut down on the rampant dendriphyllia around here.Genryu:: lol Zombie#cinnamon321:: Some ways I'm socially liberal....Gluepot and Fatass:: deni...what?Richard Dawkins:: dendrophiliaZombieHatesYou:: Eh...tree fornicating.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm liberal except with food. I'm a picky eater.ZombieHatesYou:: Or however you spell it. cinnamon321:: lol MichaelChris OConnor:: LOL MichaelGluepot and Fatass:: is that more glossolalia?ZombieHatesYou:: It's early. I woke up special to be here. Leave me alone. :PGenryu:: lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I almost missed this chat cos I thought it was 10 pacificMeme Wars:: Atheism--my discomfort with the word is it is secondary to theism and has no meaning without first the word theism to refer to.Chris OConnor:: I have always felt the conservatives have a better grasp on national defenseRichard Dawkins:: Yes, you have a point MWMeme Wars:: The superior position is no position at all.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm not so sure, ChrisZombieHatesYou:: That's what you get for not paying attention to my expostulations in chat, Michael. You must hang on my every word.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sorry zombsZombieHatesYou:: You ought to be. *nods solemnly*Hyanxiety joinedMeme Wars:: When someone else states a position, the ball is in their court to prove their position.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: look both ways before you expostulateChris OConnor:: I am aware of how Professor Dawkins feels about the war/slaughterGenryu:: they invented the concept lol yes Chris but the whole notion of a nation state has problems for me. It's an abstraction used to promote not always healthy agendas ZombieHatesYou:: I always do. One can never be too careful with the expostulations.Chris OConnor:: I doubt war will ever be eradicated.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: It seems easier to get people to sacrifice their time/money/blood for war than to make the necessary sacrifices for peace, even if those sacrifices are easier.Richard Dawkins:: War is a lot less respectable in people's minds than it used to beChris OConnor:: That is one theme in "The Lucifer Principle" that really made sense.Jeremy1952:: I'm not sure "nation state" is an abstraction. They seem pretty realRichard Dawkins:: In 1914 war was thought to be gloriousChris OConnor:: Hello Hyanxiety Meme Wars:: I see Atheism is of no position and does not need defending, but unfortunately, definitions are assign and a position is postulated.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's not that I'm against war absolutely, I just think we could make so much of it unnecessary with better planning and social involvementMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: war is still thought to be glorious by manyGenryu:: that's the problem with the notion Jeremy to my mind. There's no 'thing' there that is the nation state. MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: war makes men out of boysHyanxiety:: Gee, I don't want to go to war with anyone, lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it gives us a big stiff national self esteemRichard Dawkins:: The recent Iraq war was supposed to be justified by UN and some sort of ethical and legal position. In practice it wasn't, but at least we paid lip service to itMeme Wars:: In the Old Testament, Genocide was condoned and commanded by Jehovah, God.Jeremy1952:: Well, take Great Britain, for example: is it real? You know if you are there....Chris OConnor:: I am embarrassed to be learning that much of our basis for attacking Iraq was built upon bad informationRichard Dawkins:: Not just bad information. Outright liesJeremy1952:: When Tony Blair decides to send troops somewhere, they fire real bullets;MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Bush gambled and lostGenryu:: no it's not a real thing Jeremy. It's an abstraction that doesn't contain the realityZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I think a lot of people knew that before we went in there...hence the huge amount of protest.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think he assumed there would be WMD and it would justify the war after the factJeremy1952:: The fact that speaks for "great britain" causes real effects in the real worldMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the last thing his people expected was to not find anyRichard Dawkins:: But Bush will probably be elected (for the first time) as a result of the warconanlee:: Richard, someone said science is a "double-edge sword", how do you think about it?Genryu:: sure that's the danger of the notion of the nation stateMeme Wars:: The USA could not hold out on the embargo against Iraq. We were having some oil shortage problems.Chris OConnor:: RD - YesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Richard--Bush is in the "cracking" phase now. If he doesn't get another war, he could easily lose.Chris OConnor:: Michael - you're probably correctRichard Dawkins:: MG, I hope you are rightRichard Dawkins:: Tony Blair is in big troubleJeremy1952:: As well he should beMeme Wars:: And Americans that are uncomfortable about the Iraq situation ar silent because oil prices went back down.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Tony will backfire on Bush. The British press isn't as weak as ours.Genryu:: yes he is but I don't think he quite realizes that yet RDJeremy1952:: I lost my temper and told someone at work that Bush should be impeached....Jeremy1952:: which I honestly think is true,Richard Dawkins:: I agree, JeremyJeremy1952:: But it isn't a popular position for continued employmentChris OConnor:: I hate to admit in here that I voted for Bush. I've been a registered Republican for a long time. Soon I'll be IndependentGluepot and Fatass:: The irony is, his bloodshet is supported most in the religious conservative campsZombieHatesYou:: Tsk, Chrisconanlee:: at least Tony doesn't prefer anti-scienceRichard Dawkins:: What Clinton did with Miss Lewinsky is TRIVIAL compared to what Bush has doneChris OConnor:: I knowJeremy1952:: good point conanleeRichard Dawkins:: Yes, Blair is pro scienceChris OConnor:: Blair has impressed meJeremy1952:: Before the stolen election and fake war, I already felt that the way the republicans here treated a sitting presidentMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Clinton's sexual sins are what gave some people the belief that Bush would never lie.cinnamon321:: lol regarding Monica and BillMeme Wars:: Yes. Trivial. Reason energy meeting was secret is because the Iraq issue was discussed.Jeremy1952:: 'bordered on treasonGenryu:: is it entirely coincidental that we have two 'Christian' leaders taking the West into unnecessary wars?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bill was the "childish president" and Bush is the "responsible adult"Richard Dawkins:: I don't think it is coincidental GenryuMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the American public is governed by archetypes, not logicRichard Dawkins:: Good point MGGenryu:: yes that's what scares meMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see someone ask Bush if he believes in RevelationRichard Dawkins:: The RaptureJeremy1952:: Is Blair Christian? I recall he declined to "pray" in publicMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Because if he believes that WW3 is part of God's plan, I think we deserve to knowRichard Dawkins:: No, Blair is definitely Christiancinnamon321:: lol....Bush scares me sometimes...he has done some things ok...but I think Bush is more of a representative of the mindset of the masses than Clinton was.Gluepot and Fatass:: The more I hear Clinton speak, the more impressed I am with his ideasZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I can't even look at Bush and think about anything dealing with responsibility...he looks too much like a monkey, and can't speak properly.Genryu:: he's a fairly open Christian verging on born again from what I've seencinnamon321:: I liked Clintons policies better.Richard Dawkins:: Blair was embarrassed at being asked whether he prays with Bush. but he is ChristianJeremy1952:: Too bad. Chris OConnor:: This may seem extreme, but I am genuinely concerned with falling back into the dark ages. War is horrible, and with WMD we could easily cause a nuclear winter and regress culturally in every way.conanlee:: a little strangeJeremy1952:: About him being Christian, not about him being embarrassed!Meme Wars:: Let's see. The rapture will contain mostly white women, a few white men, and hardly any one else. Something is wrong with equal opportunity!Genryu:: lol JeremyGluepot and Fatass:: Few know that Clinton is more of a historian than a politicianRichard Dawkins:: I think Presidents should be allowed to come back for a third term, provided they have four years out in betweenZombieHatesYou:: The born again bit gets dangerous.Richard Dawkins:: It is only the advantage of a sitting president that countsJeremy1952:: Sounds right to me, Dr. Dawkins. It would satisfy the intent of term limitationJeremy1952:: One of the greatest problems of a democracy... maybe the greatest problem... is lack of consistencyRichard Dawkins:: Clinton for2004Genryu:: now that would make sense RD. I could never quite understand why the Americans didn't just use their common sense and change the rules so that Clinton could be re-elected lolHyanxiety leftZombieHatesYou:: We have common sense?Genryu:: lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd love to see Hillary become President. Ann Coulter's head would explode.ZombieHatesYou:: Where'd you get that idea? Meme Wars:: Clinton is young enough.Richard Dawkins:: CLINTON FOR 2004Genryu:: lolRichard Dawkins:: I mean Billconanlee:: what about Al Gore ?ZombieHatesYou:: I would prefer to see Clinton back in office, though I never thought I'd say that...lol. It's got to be better than Shrub. Shrub's made a mess of everything.Chris OConnor:: RD - that actually sounds like a good idea.Gluepot and Fatass:: I think we are fairly consistent in the significant issues....like war, hegemony, national interestsMeme Wars:: What's wrong with Gore? Too stuffy?Chris OConnor:: RD - 4 years offconanlee:: the former vice presidentRichard Dawkins:: I like GoreMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Gore got a bad deal. The press focused on what he wore and not on his ideas.Jeremy1952:: I hear, Chris, fears of WWIII: but I don't' see who the other side could be. Russia is pretty much in bd with usRichard Dawkins:: YesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Gore never got an honest hearing in the publicMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nobody read his bookRichard Dawkins:: Bush couldn't write a book if he triedJeremy1952:: nowadays, and there's real question if their nukes would even work Genryu:: China maybe ChrisZombieHatesYou:: Michael: But that's the American way. I know women that voted specifically for Clinton because he had good hair. Meme Wars:: Well, at least with Gore we would sign on to the Kyoto protocol.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's favorite children's book is Hop on Pop. Apt title.conanlee:: Meme- nothing wrong, I think Gore is much better than BushChris OConnor:: Jeremy - In a split second we could have a confrontation with China and a group of other nations we have long trampled overGenryu:: lol Zombiecinnamon321:: lol zomZombieHatesYou:: *giggles...Hop on Pop*conanlee:: you're right memeJeremy1952:: Well, I can't say he actually LIED in his book Michael, but there was huge failure to check sourcesChris OConnor:: Jeremy - and our only hope with China would be to use NukesZombieHatesYou:: Sure, it's funny...but it's also sad, because it's true.Genryu:: mind you China's done it's fair share of 'trampling' toocinnamon321:: I agree Chris---China is a dark horse.Chris OConnor:: trueMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm not saying Gore was perfect, just that he never got a fair hearing, the press mangled himZombieHatesYou:: We are a media saturated country, assaulted by so many images...we end up clinging to the ones that look the best to us, regardless of what the actual content is.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--exactly. We're trained to do that.Chris OConnor:: China is huge....and the sleeping giant of modern timesZombieHatesYou:: Yep.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: advertisers know psychology better than we doconanlee:: Richard, have you even been to China?Chris OConnor:: Conan - any comments?Richard Dawkins:: I'm worried about the amount of money candidates are allowed to spend advertisingGluepot and Fatass:: We really ought to read some ChomskyRichard Dawkins:: No I haven't been to ChinaMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wonder if it's possible to run a campaign online and winMeme Wars:: Yes, and because China had the wisdom of the one child policy, it economy will take off.Chris OConnor:: I would read ChomskyZombieHatesYou:: Without the advertising, the voters would actually have to think...and we can't have that, now, can we?conanlee:: well, I'm wondering about how do you think China...MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you got millions of people to print out your essays and post them in publicChris OConnor:: Michael - wow...excellent questionMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I bet I could do it if I was old enough and crazy enough to runGenryu:: so what do we have so far - themes of anti intellectualism, a politically powerful Christian right and an opposition that is dismissed as weak because of it's very liberalismMeme Wars:: Ultimate Campaign reform. No adds, no pamphlets.Chris OConnor:: Michael - it couldn't be 100% online, or you would miss out on reaching the lower income populationJeremy1952:: One of the democratic candidates had a very successful online fundraising, raised about doubleZombieHatesYou:: This is how the world ends, Genryu Jeremy1952:: what was expectedGenryu:: lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--you'd have people print things out MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they'd know you entirely through your writingChris OConnor:: Michael - Ahhh...you have this planned outMeme Wars:: A government pub would go out to all monthly, with each candidate having a say.Jeremy1952:: Spend your campaign funds on handing out free computers first, ChrisMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe a single tv ad if you collected the moneyChris OConnor:: I say Richard Dawkins for President.Chris OConnor:: Jeremy1952:: I think a computer in every home is more important than a chicken in every pot anywayGenryu:: and why are candidates allowed to spend so much on advertising in the US? It seems the very opposite of freedom of speech to meconanlee:: Richard, do you think nuclear weapons could be banned at least?ZombieHatesYou:: Who needs food when you have the information superhighway?Richard Dawkins:: I thought Bush promised McCain (spelling) he would reform that if elected?Jeremy1952:: Lol, I'd certainly support him.... or even Blair! But there is that little citizenship detailGluepot and Fatass:: What do you guys think of Nader?Meme Wars:: Reform what?Jeremy1952:: Richard, Bush is getting around it by simply declining public moneyZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: I think, like I said before, because we are a country built around the media. TV is everywhere you go, the billboards are huge, you never escape it.Meme Wars:: Campaign Finance?Jeremy1952:: The reforms only apply to those who take public money,Jeremy1952:: so he just spends his ownRichard Dawkins:: Reform the amount allowed to be spent on election campaigns. McCain agreed to support Bush if he would reform that. he has broken his promiseMeme Wars:: Gore lost due to Nadar.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: promises don't matter if the public doesn't remember themZombieHatesYou:: If there was a cap put on the amount of advertising the politicians could do, then no one would know about any of them. We're not trained to learn without the television over here.Richard Dawkins:: Nadar has a lot to answer forMeme Wars:: If we had Australia voting system, Nadar would have receive his 5% and Gore would be president today.cinnamon321:: To me Perot and Nader were political puppets used so a candidate would lose votes.Chris OConnor:: Perot wrote some interesting, yet simplistic books.Genryu:: so why isn't something done about health care, about gun control, about issues like that? There's a kind of obscenity about pointing the finger at 'terrorists' and fundamentalists and pushing the agenda of a country that can't even bring basic health care to those most in need and where those in power can virtually monopolise the mediaRichard Dawkins:: Some sort of proportional representation would be a great boonGenryu:: same here in the UK RDRichard Dawkins:: Yes GenryuJeremy1952:: Massimo Pigliucci wrote a great article about alternative ways of running electionsMeme Wars:: Australia system has a person vote for all candidates and rate by choice, 1 top and then downward.ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: Because that would ruin the American way...the idea that if you work hard, you win. Even though many of us break our backs forever and never get anywhere.Jeremy1952:: some which sound much more fairRichard Dawkins:: In UK the Liberal Democrats would benefit hugely from proportional representationGluepot and Fatass:: I agree, winner take all, elections promote a two-party system.Meme Wars:: If your candidate was eliminated, your vote would transfer to next choice.Genryu:: and common sense might be allowed a chance to prevail RD yes lolMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: social Darwinism seems to be the favored social strategy of those who deny evolutionRichard Dawkins:: Yes, Single Transferable VoteMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: irony is funRichard Dawkins:: MG, excellent pointZombieHatesYou:: We all love irony, Michael...Jeremy1952:: One problem is the situation of someone who prefers neither... Gore is a born again Christian, not likely to represent meJeremy1952:: And we've forgotten his running mate, a Jewish fundycinnamon321:: Gore is a born again Christian? Wow!ZombieHatesYou:: I hope to see a President in my lifetime that's not Christian.Meme Wars:: Our Senate is useless. Keep 50 Senator to represent states, and then have the other 50 candidates at large for proportional representation.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think Gore is quite as likely to use religion as a political tool, beyond the usual "hey, I'm a family guy, vote for me"Gluepot and Fatass:: The point is, he's preferable to bushChris OConnor:: Jeremy - atheists will probably not have fair representation in politics for the next 100 yearsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a Buddhist president would be niceRichard Dawkins:: Is that true about Gore. I thought he was far too intelligent to be a real Christian (as opposed to pretending to be one to get votes)ZombieHatesYou:: I wonder if that can happen, what with the Christian hegemony we've got to deal with.Genryu:: lol Michael but I'm biased on that oneJeremy1952:: True, ChrisChris OConnor:: RD - He is probably a fakerZombieHatesYou:: There you go, Michael. Genryu, come over here and pretend to be American so you can be President.conanlee:: Richard, how do you think about China?Jeremy1952:: Well Dr. D, he was pretty open about it. And pretending to be one to get votes , you'd want to be less specific than he was;Richard Dawkins:: Brights outnumber Jews tenfold. Yet politicians are terrified of the Jewish lobby and treat atheists with contemptGenryu:: no I'd be intolerant of Christians and not spend a penny on defense lolconanlee:: tell us your opinionsZombieHatesYou:: *laughs*Jeremy1952:: he associated himself with a particular sectGluepot and Fatass:: You have to be "religious" to get elected...an avowed atheist would be torn to shredscinnamon321:: With the censorship stuff that Gore and Tipper Gore put into effect, I could believe Gore is a born again.Chris OConnor:: Gluepot - trueRichard Dawkins:: Yes, but WHY, given that there are more atheists than any religion than ChristianJeremy1952:: Maybe we should use the anti porn laws that Tipper and Al love so much to get those disgusting statues Jeremy1952:: of a naked guy on a torture device out of public placesChris OConnor:: We will have a women or black president well before an atheist president.Richard Dawkins:: There are 30 million Brights and only about 3 million Jews in USAconanlee:: how many atheists are there in America?Meme Wars:: One of the Democratic candidates deliberately left out religion in his speech. What is his name?ZombieHatesYou:: Gluepot: I think that's sad. I would think that an atheist President would end up much more sensible and logical about running this country...take a look at what Bush has done regarding 9/11 and Iraq...turned it into this God thing. He even had to bring God into the space shuttle wreck.Jeremy1952:: Well, Dr Dawkins, part of it is that "atheist" is an inherently negative position; Chris and I are both atheists,Genryu:: damn good question RD and it confuses the hell out of meJeremy1952:: but our politics are diametrically opposedRichard Dawkins:: If you count 'agnostics' and 'secular' there are 29 million of us. BrightsGluepot and Fatass:: It's easy to sympathize with the Jewish lobby, atheists are stigmatizedChris OConnor:: RD - We need 1 very charismatic leader for the Bright movement....to unify and bring Brights "out of the closet"Richard Dawkins:: Call yourselves BrightsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what is the Bright movementRichard Dawkins:: Atheists under another name. To try to overcome the stigmaJeremy1952:: I call myself a "Stochastic Newtonian Godless Jew"; but I must admit, "Bright" has a better ring to itChris OConnor:: RD - Are you assuming that role? Or just an endorser? You could be the key.Meme Wars:: I'm a Bright!Gluepot and Fatass:: I don't feel comfortable with that term--BrightRichard Dawkins:: I'm a BrightChris OConnor:: I'm a BrightRichard Dawkins::
www.the-brights.net/ZombieHatesYou:: I dunno about having to slap a new name on an old idea to get people to pay attention to it...cinnamon321:: Its just like the movie Contact when they don't want to send Eleanor Arroway to Vega because she's an atheist. That's the kind of response an atheist running for public office would get I think.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a Dim cos I don't know what the Brights areMeme Wars:: Even submitted a suggested symbol for the Brights!Chris OConnor:: everyone...join hands and say "I'm a Bright too!"Richard Dawkins:: I've just given you the web siteChris OConnor:: I have the URL folksJeremy1952:: I'm afraid of it being taken as offense, in American jargon "bright" is the antonym for "stupid"Chris OConnor:: So don't worryZombieHatesYou:: Chris: That infringes on my personal space issues and sounds quite a lot like dirty hippie stuff. Please desist.Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - it isconanlee:: I'm thinking about how to say "bright" in ChineseChris OConnor:: LOLJeremy1952:: Although it is true.... I'm not sure such a label will win many friendsRichard Dawkins:: Here is my Brights articleZombieHatesYou:: Jer: Right...Richard Dawkins:: books.guardian.co.uk/revi...12,00.htmlChris OConnor:: Conan - Wow! You could be our link to China.Genryu:: it's a way of changing some of the 'baggage' attached to the term atheist Gluepot which kind of makes sense like gay for homosexuals. Interestingly though 'gay is now being used as a derogatory term by the very young who aren't even aware of the homosexual link.Gluepot and Fatass:: I agree Jeremy...it is a bit combative by implicationconanlee:: Chris, good idea!Gluepot and Fatass:: I would prefer something more inclusiveChris OConnor:: Conan could help spread this meme to several billion peopleJeremy1952:: On the other hand, I haven't heard a better idea in the 30 years or so I've been looking -Meme Wars:: Just because Brights usually display that characteristic doesn't mean you have to be bright to be a "bright".ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: I've noticed that. I do it, too. If someone finds something annoying, they say, 'That's so gay!'Jeremy1952:: And as with the gay analogy, we can change the meaning of the wordRichard Dawkins:: But you do have to be bright to be a bright, in our cultureGenryu:: that's so gay Zombie ZombieHatesYou:: Oh hush up. Chris OConnor:: Conan - You ought to read those articles, and we can discuss them on the forum "The Roundtable" or even in "Unweaving..."MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: blame south park Meme Wars:: In our culture, yes.cinnamon321:: I hear people say "That's so queer!" Or that's so Faggy.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "Dude, don't be a Republican"conanlee:: Chris, I'll read themMeme Wars:: Who would be fool enough to go against the majority unless reality dictates it?Jeremy1952:: I dunno, Dr. Dawkins, I was raised that way. I'd probably be an atheist even if I was dumb as a dachshundMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "That's so Republican..."Gluepot and Fatass:: I like FreethinkerZombieHatesYou:: South Park will save us, Michael.Chris OConnor:: Michael LOLcinnamon321:: lol Michaelcinnamon321:: I like Freethinker toocinnamon321:: I use that or humanist.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: freethinker is goodChris OConnor:: I became an atheist after seeing too much ugliness in this worldGluepot and Fatass:: Humanist is also very good...you can't be more inclusive and positive than HumanistRichard Dawkins:: Freethinker and Humanist are both OK. but I'm giving Bright a tryChris OConnor:: And spending too much time reading, thinking and learning about the natural world - this leads to atheismRichard Dawkins:: I'm curious to see if the meme will spread\Meme Wars:: Christianity is so irrational. I used to be a fundamentalist preaching in high schools.Genryu:: well perhaps the truth is we can't always be inclusive. While part of me is uncomfortable with some of what I've read and heard about the term Brights, at the same time there is the possible consequence of being too passive in the face of a rising tide of fundamentalism, simple mindedness and anti intellectualism/anti scientific thoughtMeme Wars:: But I also had a love for science and logic.Gluepot and Fatass:: wow memeChris OConnor:: RD - Is there a banner I could put on our web site?ZombieHatesYou:: It might just be my habit of improperly permuting things, but I hear Bright and I think 'Rainbow Brite' like the cartoon...sounds sort of like a joke...Richard Dawkins:: Really, MW? What changed you?cinnamon321:: For me, knowing a lot of psychology and reading about the brain causes a form of atheism.Chris OConnor:: RD - a banner for the "Bright" ideaMeme Wars:: And the ministers couldn't answer my tough questions.Jeremy1952:: Well said, GenryuMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I dunno if "Brights" would catch on in America, cos of the anti-elitist spinGluepot and Fatass:: Genryu, its true we can't but political efficacy demands we present the image that we are inclusiveMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "oh, you think you're brighter than us?"conanlee leftGenryu:: lol Birkenstocks and patchouli huh Zombie?ZombieHatesYou:: *twitches*Chris OConnor:: Zombie Jeremy1952:: On the other hand, Michael, we can tell someone they can be a bright... no matter how dumb they areMeme Wars:: What started me down the path of evolution was a creationist booklet against it.ZombieHatesYou:: Patchouli makes me physically ill. I'd make a terrible hippie. ZombieHatesYou:: Or a terrible Wiccan. ZombieHatesYou:: Le sigh.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jer--doesn't that imply you have to be an atheist to be bright?Genryu:: well the main criterion surely is that people think for themselves and don't get seduced by the irrationalJeremy1952:: conanlee joinedconanlee:: ......Richard Dawkins:: Those creation booklets are so funnyZombieHatesYou:: Jer: Well, that explains it all.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think "freethinker" would go over better in American cultureChris OConnor:: If I find a banner I'll put it on our home page, which will soon be redesigned.Jeremy1952:: No, it contradicts it . Or rather offers a new alternativeMeme Wars:: I, as a Christian who didn't here much about evolution thought evolution made a lot of sense, in a pamphlet badmouthing evolution!Genryu:: lolRichard Dawkins:: Well, Chris, you should talk to the Bright website people. they probably have some kind of logo by nowChris OConnor:: RD - they are funny - up until the point when you realize that they are the sole means of "science" education for millionsGluepot and Fatass:: The name itself isn't really what's important...the crucial point is the ability to ORGANIZE politically under one bannerMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: someone should give out pamphlets on evolutionMeme Wars:: Yes, my grandfather smothered me with Christian cartoon pamphlets.Chris OConnor:: RD - I will get in touch with them.ZombieHatesYou:: Evolution is definitely not taught properly in American schools.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "Have you heard the good news of natural selection?"cinnamon321:: LOL!Chris OConnor:: Michael! hahahaZombieHatesYou:: I didn't know a damned thing about it until well after high school when I started studying on my own.Jeremy1952:: There's nothing like really reading the bible to make someone an atheist.... my dad, for oneZombieHatesYou:: LOL, Michael!cinnamon321:: Lots of Christians believe that evolution happened.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true jerJeremy1952:: He told me he gave up on religion when he read the "offing Isaac" bitMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like quoting parts of the bible to Christians who aren't familiar with themGenryu:: lol MichaelGluepot and Fatass:: Even the pope concedes to itRichard Dawkins:: I have to go. Guests in the houseMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: especially ones that quote the quran to show how evil it iscinnamon321:: Or that evolution is a plausible theory.MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye RichardGenryu:: bye Richard and thanksMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice meeting youcinnamon321:: Bye Richard, was nice to chat with you.Richard Dawkins:: Good bye, nice to have chatted to youZombieHatesYou:: I think the main problem is we end up with the creationism vs evolution debate when it really ought to be more along the lines of creation vs abiogenesis.Jeremy1952:: Wow, thanks so much for joining us, Dr Dawiins!Chris OConnor:: When I was 111 years old I was given the key to a private library at this place I lived. On the shelves was a donated copy of Darwin's "Origins"ZombieHatesYou:: Be well, Mr. Dawkins. Pleasure to meet you.conanlee:: bye RichardChris OConnor:: omg I meant "11" years oldRichard Dawkins:: Thanks, good byeMeme Wars:: As a Christian reading a Christian pamphlet giving evidence against evolution, I thought evolution made sense. That is how bad a case against evolution they have.Gluepot and Fatass:: An honor, thanks for coming!Richard Dawkins:: thank you tooChris OConnor:: Take care Professor Dawkins...Thank you!Chris OConnor:: Genryu:: that says a lot Meme lolRichard Dawkins:: ByeMeme Wars:: By e.Meme Wars:: It has been a honor.Gluepot and Fatass:: /cheersChris OConnor:: Wer really appreciate you spending time with usGenryu:: abiogenesis Zombie, sorry but what is that?conanlee leftZombieHatesYou:: Origin of life, rather than the evolution of it.Gluepot and Fatass:: and what is dendrophilia?Meme Wars:: You are my favorite authorJeremy1952:: Technical term for the origin of life, GenryuZombieHatesYou:: Like, how did the world start?Genryu:: aha ty JeremyZombieHatesYou:: It's tree fucking, Gluepot.Meme Wars:: This had been my greatest thrill!conanlee joinedcinnamon321:: wbChris OConnor:: Zombie! LOLGenryu:: lol ZombieJeremy1952:: Me too, Meme and Richard; I'll remember this day when my wedding anniversary is forgottenMeme Wars:: Is Dawkins gone?ZombieHatesYou:: Well, I answered less crassly before, but he didn't pay attention. =PGluepot and Fatass:: haha JeremyMeme Wars:: His name is still showing.Chris OConnor:: He is still in the chat room...but probably doesn't realize it somehow.Genryu:: your sucking up to fresh air there Meme lolJeremy1952:: Why, are you in a hurry to talk behind his back?conanlee:: I think he is still ..I don't knowGenryu:: Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - LOLMeme Wars:: ZombieHatesYou:: Gossip hounds. I am ashamed to be in your company.Chris OConnor:: Then again, this chat room is bugged.Meme Wars:: Gotta get back to work. The place is falling apart without me.Chris OConnor:: We have had problems.cinnamon321:: Maybe he's coming back---I don't think so though.conanlee:: Chris, do you have a chatting log?Chris OConnor:: Meme - I'm glad you made it!MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie, is this your first booktalk?Gluepot and Fatass:: Did Sqwark ever show up?Jeremy1952:: No FatassChris OConnor:: Conan - I sure do. The whole thing.Meme Wars:: Good Bye! It has been fun!Genryu:: Bye MemeChris OConnor:: One person showed up named "Hyanxiety" that never chatted.ZombieHatesYou:: No, huahua. I was here for the Bloom chat, remember?ZombieHatesYou:: Be well, Meme.Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - LOL that sounds funnyMeme Wars leftGenryu:: mind you this chat has left me with some questions which is goodChris OConnor:: I cannot wait to read "A Devils Chaplain" cinnamon321:: It was a pleasure to have Mr. Dawkins here. He seems like a very nice person.ZombieHatesYou:: I thought Glory would be here, Chris.conanlee:: Sqwark ... that creationist?cinnamon321:: Is Sqwark a creationist?Gluepot and Fatass:: I can't believe I overslept...I knew I shouldn't have stayed up until 4:00Genryu:: yes if a tad unused to chat conventions lol. Hope he wasn't overwhelmed at timesChris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I spent a bit of time talking to him at the conference and he is veru friendlyGluepot and Fatass:: damn SWGJeremy1952:: I hope I didn't offend him with the Gould comments.... he really did say those things; I guess he was being niceChris OConnor:: Not at all like Stephen Jay GouldZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: I sometimes forget how hard it is to follow a faster chat...Genryu:: yesMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dennett did a Bright article in the NYTZombieHatesYou:: Though this is awful slow compared to Religion:1.Chris OConnor:: Stephen Jay Gould was an asshole. He was very rude to me.ZombieHatesYou:: Good thing I type at 80 wpm. Jeremy1952:: I found one of the quotes but decided it would be too argumentative to post itcinnamon321:: Dr. Dawkins also seems very humble, that's unusual coming from such a famous writer/scientist.ZombieHatesYou:: You had Gould in here, Chris?ZombieHatesYou:: How did I miss that?!Chris OConnor:: Zombie - as we grow it will have more and more peopleGenryu:: yes but there you can iggy half the room and still not lose a single intelligible conversation ZombieJeremy1952:: He's not humble, just secure Chris OConnor:: Zombie - No, I met Gould in real life and he was a pompous assholecinnamon321:: Ok Jer.ZombieHatesYou:: More than half, Genryu. Curse Yahoo for torturing me with the illiterates so!Jeremy1952:: Well Chris, I think this was a SmASHING successZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Oh, goodness. What did he do?Genryu:: lolChris OConnor:: Jeremy - really? excellent.conanlee:: SJG's book is a bit hard to readGenryu:: Chris thanks for this yes and I hope RD enjoyed it tooJeremy1952:: You notice he didn't' run out the door after an hour? Our guest was here 50% longer than he committed to! That'sChris OConnor:: Zombie - He sat on stage during the question and answer phase and started at everyone...not saying a word. Then a minute later says "Well, its your time. If you want to just sit there that's fine"Jeremy1952:: the sign of someone who wants to be tehreZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Sheesh.Gluepot and Fatass:: Or of someone very considerateGluepot and Fatass:: or bothChris OConnor:: Genryu - I am really happy Professor Dawkins agreed to spend some time with us...I wasn't sure if he would.Gluepot and Fatass:: I lean toward bothcinnamon321:: Gould sounds like he had a major chip on his shoulder.Jeremy1952:: It would not be inconsiderate in the least to leave at the time you said you wouldChris OConnor:: He is pretty big...and I don't mean physically.conanlee:: Mr Dawkins is still "online", what's wrong with this chat program?Jeremy1952:: He may have walked out of the room without closing the browserChris OConnor:: Conan - We have problems. I will have better chat software in the future.Genryu:: perhaps he's afk ConanGluepot and Fatass:: no it wouldn't Jeremy, but it would be considerate to stay longer, even if you didn't have much desire to do socinnamon321:: Maybe he's still on because he's going to read what we say after he left...I dunno.Chris OConnor:: Sometimes it says there are people in the chat room, you enter, and find nobodycinnamon321:: YesGenryu:: that's religion 1 Chris lolJeremy1952:: Perhaps, Gluepot. I'll take it as a compliment to ChrisChris OConnor:: Yes GenryuGluepot and Fatass:: Gluepot = Timothy Schoonover, btwJeremy1952:: I knew that, timothyZombieHatesYou:: Zombie = uh....Zombie.cinnamon321:: I'm really excited that Pinker's book has been picked for our next selection.Jeremy1952:: From your posts!cinnamon321:: I knew that too Tim.Gluepot and Fatass:: Wanted to make sure everyone was clear on thatChris OConnor:: Professor Dawkins only agreed to stay an hour and he stayed about an hour and a half...I'm very happyGenryu:: speaking of emptiness - I'm going to go and do less interesting things. thanks again Chris and been nice to chat with you guys.Jeremy1952:: I'm looking forward to re-reading it, cinnamon; I planned to anywayChris OConnor:: Cinnamon - me too! Are you reading it?Genryu leftJeremy1952:: Nice to meet you, GenryuChris OConnor:: Genryu - take care cinnamon321:: I read it already awhile back.Jeremy1952:: ooops too lateJeremy1952:: He did a "Jeremy"ZombieHatesYou:: I ought to go, too. I'll tell him you said goodbye, guys.cinnamon321:: I'll check it out again though. Refresh my memory.conanlee:: Chris, someone tell me in America antitheist is not popular, is that true?Chris OConnor:: I'm on Ch. 3 of The Blank Slate and loving it.Chris OConnor:: Conan - I have never heard the term.ZombieHatesYou leftconanlee:: Chris, I mean "atheist"Jeremy1952:: For many people here, conanlee, "atheist" is considered a very bad thing to becinnamon321:: All of Pinker's books are well written. Very informative if you want to learn about psychology. He takes all the junk psychology out for the most part.Chris OConnor:: Conan - in America the term "Atheist" is not always understood by theists. They do know what you mean when you say "I don't believe in a God"Chris OConnor:: Conan - Yes, you're right. Many don't know the word AtheistJeremy1952:: Theists assume that morality comes from 'god' (whatever that is), and therefore that atheists are immoralGluepot and Fatass:: There are many theists, who by very nature of their beliefs must dislike atheismChris OConnor:: I am very proud to be an atheist, but I do understand the desire to find a new word without the negative connotation\Jeremy1952:: Or, they assume that everyone must believe in their delusion, and therefore people don't really disbelieve,cinnamon321:: Well a lot of theists call atheists heathens or heretics. lolJeremy1952:: they think 'atheists" are pretending, to piss god off.Gluepot and Fatass:: Agnostic is a lot less provocative to the theistChris OConnor:: Atheists are in good company. The majority of top scientists are atheists or agnostics. I don't discount this. Jeremy1952:: oops sorry about the jargon.. "piss off" means to "make angry"MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I still think "freethinker" is the bestcinnamon321:: Yeah, I like freethinker the best too.conanlee:: do they consider atheists have no moral?Jeremy1952:: yes, that is their assertionChris OConnor:: The people who have dedicated their lives to understanding the natural world are almost exclusively atheist/agnostic. This has weight with me.Gluepot and Fatass:: The only thing bright has going for it, imo, is that it is a fresh and unblemished startChris OConnor:: Conan - Yes, that's a common belief.Jeremy1952:: I think that is one reason why they are so threatened by sociobiologyChris OConnor:: I do like the word "freethinker."Jeremy1952:: We are proving that morals and ethics have deep roots in our biologyJeremy1952:: which puts lie to the importance they attach to their religious explanationsconanlee:: It's strange to me. In China "atheist" is a common term cinnamon321:: I think that the name Bright will be used as an insult or manipulated by some and used as something to divided themselves from the rest of the population in an Us against them because we are superior way. At least that's what I'm afraid of.Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - to me morality is that which a social group deems beneficial to itselfGluepot and Fatass:: I agree cinnamonChris OConnor:: Cinnamon - you may be rightGluepot and Fatass:: Chris, I agreeChris OConnor:: Morality is relative.Gluepot and Fatass:: Morality seems to be justified self-preservation with benefitsJeremy1952:: The Nazis thought killing all the Jews would be beneficial to their group... does that make it right?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think "Bright" will go over well in AmericaGluepot and Fatass:: some thought so, and that is what mattersMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will think it means you think you're better than themcinnamon321:: Morality should be based somewhat on humanities natural tendencies in my opinion.Jeremy1952:: Forgive me, but morality has been the province of theists and philosophers for too longMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: amen jerChris OConnor:: The only universality of morality is where things apply to all people. We can all die and none of us really wants to die. So we create the more about killing.cinnamon321:: YesJeremy1952:: We now know enough science to begin to find out the reality underlying our ethicsGluepot and Fatass:: the funny thing is, philosophers have been denying their right to it for a long timecinnamon321:: YeahChris OConnor:: Jeremy - It is not about right or wrong...but about that which a social group thinks is right or wrong. Did that make sense? In Nazi Germany the people doing the killing probably thought they were doing something for the betterment of society.Jeremy1952:: I think, Chris, these are questions that can be answered by research. Jeremy1952:: Yes, they didcinnamon321:: I hate to sound Machiavellian---but might makes one right with the masses. That's way religion is so popular.Jeremy1952:: I think evolution is smarter than we are... I think we need to find out the purposes, goals that our propensities evolved to achieve;cinnamon321:: *whyGluepot and Fatass:: What do you think research can tell us about morality, other than it doesn't exist Jeremy?Chris OConnor:: I will need to leave now to get ready for work.Jeremy1952:: then use our intelligence to modify behaviour Chris OConnor:: This was fun guys.cinnamon321:: bye ChrisJeremy1952:: Really Chris; kudos to you againGluepot and Fatass:: later ChrisChris OConnor:: I need to copy and paste this whole chat to a transcript forumChris OConnor:: I am worried that this last section will be hard to copy.conanlee:: why?Jeremy1952:: Research has already proved that it DOES exist, Tim; what is left is details. Jeremy1952:: And applicationsMichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our biological evolution may not have prepared us for the way we liveChris OConnor:: If anyone wants to try to copy and paste it in to a thread in "Unweaving" please do. I have copied and pasted the first 1/2 already.Gluepot and Fatass:: In what way Jeremy?Gluepot and Fatass:: and how do you define it?MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we evolved in groups of 200 or so, now we have lots of subcultures mixed in huge groupsChris OConnor:: I will stop chatting jow and try to copy the rest.Chris OConnor:: Take care everyone cinnamon321:: How we live is certainly a result of our biological evolution.;MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you too chrisJeremy1952: The foundation of morality is the instinctive tendencies that allow us to live as a cooperative speciesMichaelangeloGlossolalia: cinnamon--but overcrowding and technology that we didn't evolve withMichaelangeloGlossolalia: we have to adapt to our cultural evolutioncinnamon321: Our brains gave us the means to come up with the technology, and our brains allow us to adapt to the technology.Jeremy1952: It's a major theme of "Blank Slate", so you'll get a better explanation there than I can give off the top of my head!Jeremy1952: Anyway, duty calls...Gluepot and Fatass: Jeremy morality must prescribe what *ought* to be, not was *is* or has been or could be, until it says with authority what we ought to do, it cannot be called moralityJeremy1952: see y'all Thursdaycinnamon321: Bye jerGluepot and Fatass: later(Jeremy1952 left)Gluepot and Fatass: I think that we can find good, or better ways of living together, but I am skeptical if we can ever legitimate those ways a prioricinnamon321: Rightcinnamon321: Too many ideals clashingGluepot and Fatass: at the same time, I don't think there is all that much need for an a priori legitimation, but we should not pretend that there is. "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."