Divided We Fall - Chapters 6 - 10

[Chris OConnor]

Divided We Fall
Chapters 6 - 10

Please use this thread to discuss the above referenced chapters.

[geo]

In Ch. 8, French recounts a discussion he had with a group of liberals, moderates, and conservatives. He wanted to see if this diverse group could envision a return to civility in America, tackling some of the issues so prevalent in our culture war. Then he asks this question: Is Caitlyn Jenner a woman?

The words hung there for a moment. We looked at each other, and I could see the wheels turning. Did they want to take up the challenge? Did they want to prove that we could have a discussion about gender identity that was every bit as civil as the genuine search for constitutional common ground that had dominated previous sessions? But no one took it up. No. We can’t possibly talk about that. That question is truly beyond debate.

Is it beyond debate? I would say, no, Caitlyn Jenner is a transgender woman. Do you guys think that answer would be acceptable to everyone? Isn't it true?

[Chris OConnor]

What was meant by "beyond debate?"

Was it meant that the topic is not worthy of debate because the matter has been settled, or was it meant that it is not debatable because debating it is too politically charged and dangerous?

I'm guessing it was meant that debating the topic has become taboo and engaging in such debate will get you cancelled or worse rather quickly. And that's a damn shame in my opinion. No topic should be off the table for debate. This is one of those subjects where I feel liberals are going way overboard with silencing their opponents.

[geo]

What was meant by "beyond debate?"

Was it meant that the topic is not worthy of debate because the matter has been settled, or was it meant that it is not debatable because debating it is too politically charged and dangerous?

I think it's the latter, Chris. French doesn't explain who organized the meeting, only that the members were politically diverse. When the question about Caitlyn Jenner's gender came up, I wasn't very convinced that this issue was "beyond debate." I know the transgender issue is hard for some conservatives to accept. But if Caitlyn Jenner identifies as a woman, who is going to tell her she's wrong? On the other hand, Caitlyn Jenner isn't biologically a woman. She's transgender. There's no question that some people's gender identity does not conform to their biological sex. There's plenty of data to back this up.

If I had been at this meeting, I would have said Caitlyn Jenner identifies as a woman and so if you have to label her something she's transgender. I would use the female pronoun "she" because it's more or less accurate. If some liberals want to challenge me on this, I would be very happy to discuss it.

I know J.K. Rowling has gotten a lot of flak for saying a person with a vagina is a woman, but the problem here has to do with a confusion over biological sex and identity. Some on the right refuse to accept the notion of sexual identity, and some on the left want to cancel anyone who disagrees with them. In Rowling's case, she was villified for expressing an opinion, even when she later clarified her position.