BookTalk.org https://www.booktalk.org/ |
|
Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost https://www.booktalk.org/caste-part-1-toxins-in-the-permafrost-t31949-15.html |
Page 2 of 3 |
Author: | LanDroid [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:06 am ] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Here in Chapter 2, the author starts to define the caste system.
This book examines the three caste systems mentioned above.
I doubt many Americans are aware of the relationship between caste and racism mainly because "caste" has remained hidden. I think I'm starting to understand it: One is a subset of the other. It may be too early for many of these questions, but something to keep in mind... Buckle up - we are just barely getting started...
|
Author: | Harry Marks [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:43 am ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | ||||||||||||||||||
This whole subject is a huge can of worms. We are rightly incensed by actions taken to explicitly enforce caste structures. These are violations of individual rights that cannot be justified morally but that are all too easy to justify economically. But what happens when policy is pursuing a neutral aim, but failing to listen to the causes and consequences in large part because those affected are "other"? And it may not be racial difference that is behind the willed blindness - it may be poverty, it may be the devastating effects of past trauma accumulating as damaged nervous systems (think epigenetics) and damaged social skill sets, it may be systems like military hazing that grew up to cope with extreme threat but whose toxic effects go on after the threat is gone (some of my Russian students told stories about this in hushed tones and with eyes pleading for understanding). We do not have much thought out there about how to cope with this problem, that neutral, justifiable rules can act in a way that perpetuates evil power structures, and the general public be unaware of this pattern.
https://www.latimes.com/environment/sto ... ath-to-epa repeating the pattern that led to rejection of Washington state actually doing something about the climate due to opposition from the left. We simply cannot have every measure to help the general public held hostage by "disproportionate effects" that happen because of inherited poverty. A far better approach is to "log roll" a win-win outcome. Those hurt by the harms of neutral policies (I'm thinking particularly of the open trade policies that devastated Detroit and brought Trump to power) should be willing to accept some cost in exchange for support on policies that will foreseeably bring larger off-setting benefits to those groups. |
Author: | DWill [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost |
Please excuse that my comments aren't connected to the existing discussion, but I think we're in the stage of initial thoughts. I have never heard of caste-ists, and that might be an advantage of Wilkerson's wide lens. We do spend lots of energy arguing whether so-and-so is a racist, which gets us nowhere toward further understanding of the forest we're inside of. It can be more productive to ask everyone not whether they harbor racism in their hearts, but whether they see outside of themselves a system that did, and still does, assign access to power based on certain immutable physical traits, as Wilkerson calls them. I suspect that if we asked about the existence of class in the U.S., we'd find a good deal of openness to the idea among whites, despite the fact that class was supposed to be left behind in Europe. Class doesn't have the same ability to hold one down as caste does, but it might be a bridge to that other idea. I sense there is some way to bring whites at the bottom of the ladder into such a discussion. Whiteness has probably prevented whites from sinking to the lowest caste, but some apparently feel that they're stuck on a pretty low rung. So does caste operate in the U.S. on another basis, in addition to race? Or is that to muddy the discussion? |
Author: | Robert Tulip [ Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:49 pm ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | ||||||||||||||||||
|
Author: | geo [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:37 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||
This is an excellent discussion and forgive my inclination to go off on tangents. But I wonder how artificial a caste system really is, especially considering that it keeps cropping up in different cultures. It has appeared in India and in the United States. And Great Britain's rigid class structure also seems a similar kind of ordering. I'm thinking of E.O. Wilson's observations that humans are "eusocial" creatures, meaning that we have "advanced" level of social organization similar to ants and termites. Eusociality is apparently an emergent trait in evolution in populations that require a lot of social cooperation. The division of labor by ants and termites (and bees and wasps) are likewise called "castes." So rather than an artificial construction, I would suggest castes may be completely natural, as far as that goes. Perhaps it is egalitarianism, the idea that we are all equal and deserve equal rights, that is more of an artificial construction. Or maybe both are evolutionary "strategies" that can crop up in different scenarios and can ultimately be explained by game theory. Considering that one of the main difference s between humans and eusocial insects is that we have a highly developed culture that "evolves" much the same as biological evolution. We create stories and myths to explain why things are the way they are. So if we are instinctively inclined to regiment our society in caste systems we would have to rationalize it with narratives such as white superiority. In that sense, Wilkerson is absolutely right. The ideas that support caste systems are artificial. Humans have a fantastic capacity to bullshit ourselves and look the other way when confronted by contradictory evidence that goes against our make-believe narratives. |
Author: | Harry Marks [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:19 pm ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
My wife gave me "The Silk Roads" by Peter Frankopan a year ago and I am slowly making my way through this economics-driven history of the world. I am up to the end of WWII and natural resources are still the determining factor in power, though Frankopan breezes past the sources of the Industrial Revolution that created the ascendancy of the West. We have mastered so much in the West (and now East Asia) in the last century that it just doesn't make sense to struggle over resources. Furthermore, possession of resources does not make domination possible because of nuclear weapons. Empire is over. In the same way, caste is a powerful force in a world in which resources, roles and skills mesh and families pass on the ability to dominate (or otherwise hold on to status) in their society. India's caste system evolved over 4 millennia, and functioned reasonably well despite its injustice. Simply put, the upper castes could use their dominance to perpetuate their status. We are in a time of extraordinarily high value on innovation and, still for a while, hard work and risk-taking. The kinds of skills families can pass on are no longer key to success, much less a combination of skills and possessions. For that reason caste is artificial in the sense that it stands in the way of the true forces determining wealth and happiness. It sets up artificial barriers based on race and, much less artificially, culture. In an agrarian society in which who marries who could create the path for ability to rise, the zero-sum logic of caste could make some sense. Immoral, but still functional for those in power. But even as early as 1840 the Whigs (who became the Republicans) recognized that investing in people made sense, and holding down half the society to make sure your progeny could not fall into the service class was just cutting off your nose to spite your face. As we know, trial by combat showed how correct this was as the industrial power of the North overwhelmed the advantages of fighting on defense that were used so skillfully by the well-trained generals from the leisure class of the South. It is still natural for some to fight for status and use caste as one weapon in the arsenal, but the success of Asian-Americans and Jews shows that concentrating on the win-win world of high-value enterprise is just vastly superior as a strategy to trying to keep others away from the paths to success.
But now the need for regulation (for example in banking and energy) has become more prominent than ever, and libertarian ideology is a hazard instead of being a bulwark against atavistic oppression. Not sure if our society can sort things out in time to stave off disaster, but much depends on whether those who accept the need for regulation can build up some practical solutions and evolving paths to sanity in the face of stubborn resistance by resource-based special interests and libertarian individualists. |
Author: | Robert Tulip [ Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:59 pm ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I agree with group selection as a way to explain cultural evolution, seeing the memes of armies and priests as effective adaptive mutations that enable group success. It is a shame that Dawkins and others have not been able to engage constructively on this idea, which in Dawkins’ case is due to his personal commitment to the model of the selfish gene.
Indeed, my view of Christian origins is that the rise of cities, together with armies, priests and agriculture, required such an evolutionary override mechanism as part of the group selection meme of cooperative living in the ancient world. Christianity delivered this meme through its doctrine of the need to focus on the spirit and deny the flesh. So you are correct that rights are an artificial construction, but that does not at all negate their place as an evolutionary strategy in game theory. Constructivist ethics is often somehow seen as inferior, but only when people have metaphysical commitments to the intrinsic good of ideas like a supernatural God, or of human rights as absolute and self-evident truths. Biologists tend to think of evolution just in physical terms, but the planetary reality now is that the human mind, with its ability to deliver rule of law and policy based on merit, is now the primary adaptive mechanism able to deliver ongoing global flourishing. The rejection of caste thinking by Christianity (neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for all are one in Christ) recognises this spiritual power and value of equality.
Rationalisation is the process of hiding anomalies in a defunct paradigm, such as caste thinking. |
Author: | Harry Marks [ Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:48 pm ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | ||||||||||||||||||
The inclusivity of the Jesus movement was a scandal to their more traditional Jewish peers, but it also brought a transforming spiritual power to the early church. Imagine holding that slaves were the social equals of those who were free. To get a sense of the scandal you have to imagine an unlettered bumpkin meeting with the professors of a university dressed in a loincloth, or perhaps a fur hat with Viking horns, and speaking as their equal. The roots of the literature Paul appropriated go back to the Captivity, when Jews began to have an inkling that they would be "a light to the nations", probably partly because Cyrus practiced tolerance as a way of consolidating empire. The prophecies of punishment for idolatry had begun to be replaced by prophecies of enduring covenant and restored favor by God, and along with this shift the meaning of their horrific experience became mission for enlightenment rather than mere time-serving, and five or six centuries later, Paul, surely encouraged by the phenomenon of ecstasy inspired by radical mutual acceptance, took the ball and ran with it.
I'm not sure language is capable of overcoming that. Outside of a relatively small percentage of cops we are not deliberately mistreating or excluding people for their caste, so there is little for rational critique to work on. But I think contact, and romance, and friendships, and television personalities, will gradually erase the distinctions. There will be neither Black nor White, neither Hispanic nor Anglo, neither (in a status sense) male nor female. |
Author: | LanDroid [ Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:58 pm ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | ||||||||||||||||||
Chapter Three An American Untouchable This section is neatly bookended. It begins with Martin Luther King visiting India and being introduced as an untouchable. It ends with Bhimrao Ambedkar, an untouchable from India who came to America to study economics as a graduate student. Robert Tulip previously mentioned Martin Luther King visiting India in 1959 and being introduced at a high school as an untouchable.
As I mentioned Bhimrao Ambedkar studied in the US. He returned to India and became "the foremost leader of the Untouchables and a preeminent intellectual who would help draft a new Indian constitution." At the end of this section Isabel Wilkerson is going through airport security with a bust of Bhimrao Ambedkar.
|
Author: | LanDroid [ Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:09 pm ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | ||||||||||||||||||
Wilerson quotes several prominent sociologists I think in part to show the caste system has been recognized at least in academia for quite some time.
|
Author: | LanDroid [ Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:25 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||
Wilkerson quotes only one of the tenets from Bailey's publication Race Orthodoxy in the South and other Aspects of the Negro Problem; here are the rest of them. (Study history fearlessly as I stated before.)
|
Author: | LanDroid [ Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:22 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||
|
Author: | Robert Tulip [ Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:28 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||
Today I read two articles in the latest New York Review of Books that touch directly on these questions of why systemic inequality in the USA seems shocking. PM me if you can’t access them and want to read. https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2021/0 ... he-elites/ is a stinging critique of Anne Applebaum, essentially arguing that she has allowed a fantasy elitist vision of America to cloud her judgement, through her “belief that we can live up to the language of our Constitution.” That seems a shocking thing to say, and yet the Enlightenment vision of liberty and equality in the US constitution systematically excluded black people. An aggressive imperial policy was clouded by the propaganda pretense of America as the land of the free and home of the brave. Martin Luther King also traded on this elitist fantasy of the ideals of equality, which is incompatible with the somewhat fatalistic outlook that sees people’s potential as constrained by caste. In his ‘I Have A Dream’ speech in Washington in 1963, King said “In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men - yes, black men as well as white men - would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked 'insufficient funds.'” His visit to India helped King to form this view of the USA as a nation grounded in the hypocritical fraud of the denial of full humanity to its large enslaved population. His shock at being called an untouchable came from the jarring dissonance with the ideals of the Founding Fathers which American ideology asserted were unalienable, even while alienating black people. https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2021/0 ... ast-walks/ is a review of a new biography of William Faulkner, whose racist Mississippi culture led his biographer to title the volumes “The Past is Never Dead” and “This Alarming Paradox”. The recognition of Faulkner as one of the greatest novelists of the last century sits uneasily against problems such as his opposition to racial integration. |
Author: | DWill [ Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:16 am ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||
Probably for me the key word is "system." We may have agreed that aspects of caste are inherent in any complex society, but which societies have been explicitly structured along those lines? Explicitness seems important in the determination of "system." Wilkerson will describe for us the three caste systems she considers most prominent. The U.S. is one of those, particularly the South in the Jim Crow era, but I'd have to assume that a caste system applied as well pre-Civil War. When the framework supporting a caste system has been taken down, in a legal sense, to what extent can we consider the caste system to have receded? That seems to be what the argument is about today. The attitudes, practices, and effects that were essential to a caste system can remain to a lesser or greater extent regardless of whether either law or overt social opinion supports them. Some of that is due to historical hangover, an example being the low net worth of black households tracing back to banks' discriminatory lending policies. Of course, the granddaddy of all hangovers is the slave ship arriving in Virginia in 1619. I take the word "systemic," as we apply it today, to mean that racism and caste are now implicit rather than (mainly) explicit. Our racism is often described as being unconscious rather than outright. That quality seems to make it particularly hard to root out. |
Author: | DWill [ Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:52 am ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Caste: Part 1 - Toxins in the Permafrost | |||||||||
Happy MLK Day, Robert. For 16 years, 1984-2000, here in Virginia we celebrated Lee-Jackson-King Day in late January--strange bedfellows. Then we gave MLK his own holiday. I don't view what King said as trading on elitist fantasy, but rather as great statesmanship. Those words of the founders rounded back on us all, carrying meaning that the founders didn't intend, and this is what King exploited. It was deeply ironic that, at the time, we white males took Jefferson's words about equality as expansive, whereas blacks immediately knew--and later, many white men and women did, too--how limited that proclaimed equality was. |
Page 2 of 3 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |