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1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 https://www.booktalk.org/1984-by-george-orwell-a-discussion-of-part-2-t29229.html |
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Author: | Chris OConnor [ Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 |
1984 by George Orwell Part 2 Please use this thread for discussing Part 2 of 1984 by George Orwell. There are 10 chapters in this section. Or if you would like to create your own threads please feel free as this thread is just to help give this discussion forum some structure. You can read 1984 for FREE here. |
Author: | KindaSkolarly [ Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 |
Five chapters into Part 2. Part 1 focused on how an individual operates in a collectivist hell. Part 2 shows how that individual tries to form a personal relationship in collectivist hell. Part 3 deals with the consequences of violating the rules of collectivist hell. I looked up "proles" in the Oxford English Dictionary today. Wondered if Blair created the word for 1984. The book was published in 1949, and the OED says the first recorded use was in 1887. G.B. Shaw used "proles" in a letter. He used it to mean proletariat or proletarian, which is how Blair uses it. I did a search earlier of news articles with the word "Orwellian" in the title. Lots and lots of them over the past couple of months. This book has had an enormous impact on western society. |
Author: | DWill [ Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 |
Reading the book again, I see how it may differ from other works of speculative fiction or sci-fi. Orwell surely goes farther than other writers in showing a transforming of minds, the techniques of which are the real science the books deals with. |
Author: | KindaSkolarly [ Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 |
Orwell includes parts of Emmanuel Goldstein's The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism in Ch. 19. Goldstein's lecturing tone is intrusive, breaks up the flow of the story, but why not, 2/3rds of the way through? Why not look at the world through another character's eyes for a while, before starting the nightmare ride through part 3? Goldstein addresses "doublethink," a phenomenon that's prominent in today's world. In America the "tolerant" leftists shout down viewpoints that differ from their own. And yet they'll insist that they hold the moral high ground since they're so tolerant. They're able to hold contradicting thoughts without noticing the contradiction...doublethink. EDIT: 1984 deals with historical revisionism. In the news today: Robert B. Reich: Can we get an annulment instead of an impeachment? http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinio ... story.html |
Author: | Robert Tulip [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:46 am ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | ||||||||||||||||||
Australia has just had a change of Prime Minister from Malcolm Turnbull to Scott Morrison, with conservatives hoping that Morrison will be more active in support of agendas such as freedom of speech, in view of this Orwellian syndrome of political correctness becoming a method of thought control. Here is an article from today's Australian newspaper on these themes.
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Author: | DWill [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:25 am ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | |||||||||
I'll engage in some whataboutism here. How should we look at the millions of evangelical voters who preferred Donald Trump? Was it for his devotion to biblical values like showing charity to all, loving his enemies, welcoming strangers, speaking the truth, and being faithful to his wives? Trump embodies none of those values upheld by evangelicals, yet they support him as strongly as any other voting group. What we have here and with your example is the cognitive dissonance that Noah Yuval Harari identifies as an inherent part of human cognition, essential, in fact, to the dynamism of our culture. I don't know that I agree with that last part, but it's certain that the appearance of hypocrisy is as old as our species. Orwell takes this capacity and fashions a specific tool used by totalitarians to control reality, called doublethink. The beauty of 1984 is that it doesn't lend itself to our usually arbitrary categories of left and right. This nonpartisanship is evident in the two precursor regimes he names in The Book, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. The Nazis have always attracted rightward elements (National Socialism being a quite irrelevant term) while the Soviets have attracted the leftward. His message really could not be clearer: we have to watch out that our freedoms are not stolen by either of the polar factions. You'll have to say what point you intended with the Balt Sun link. It isn't clear to me. |
Author: | DWill [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 |
While I'm here I thought I'd mention something from Part Two that made me uncomfortable. Smith agrees to commit any form of terrorism if it would ever so slightly weaken the hold of the Party. Objectively, he has no choice but to agree, because there is no other path open to anyone. To rid the planet of the obnoxious regime, many innocent people would have to die. Is the way Islamist terrorists see things? |
Author: | DWill [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 |
While we're at this, why not reconsider Orwell's famous essay, "Politics and the English Language." The essay lays out the discipline of good speaking and, especially, writing. https://faculty.washington.edu/rsoder/E ... nguage.pdf |
Author: | KindaSkolarly [ Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:47 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | |||||||||
Evangelicals are forgiving. Trump says he's changed, and they're giving him a chance. It's what Jesus would have done. Also, Trump espouses personal responsibility, and Evangelicals like that. Robert Reich (the writer of the Baltimore Sun piece) essentially wants to "unperson" Trump, as they do to people in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Reich used to be fairly levelheaded. It's a shame to see him lose his mind. So many articles and videos make me think of Nineteen Eighty-Four now. The video below is good. At about 3:15 is something that reminded me of the Eurasia/Eastasia war switch. Comey of the FBI was hated by Hillary supporters, but then Trump fired him and Hillary supporters had to be re-educated to think of him as their friend. An excellent example of brainwashing using mass media: Groupthink and Why They NEED to Censor Us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7wc4z2QGKU |
Author: | DWill [ Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:16 pm ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Oh come on, I don't even recall him saying he's changed, but regardless, the clear fact is that he has been acting counter to supposed Christian values ever since coming onto the national scene. Trump "espouses personal responsibility" might be the most astounding claim I've seen from you yet.
Reich's a powerless former labor dept. secretary who was expressing his opinion, an extreme one. He wasn't proposing erasing Trump from the history books, though. I guess you can make a stretched analogy here to 1984, but you are ignoring the very fertile ground for such analogies involving the Trump administration and its supporters. Enforced political correctness and one voice advocating annulling Trump's presidency are small stuff compared to LIES, which are the very heart of the uber-totalitarian system of 1984. I'd refer anyone else to the Wash. Post's tally of lies Trump has told, but know you'd claim that was a lie itself.
There was an article on Jeff Sessions, liberal hero. The hero moniker seemed to be tongue-in-cheek, but it's true that some folks--and whole departments--that formerly got no liberal love now receive liberal sympathy and even admiration. To call this brainwashing is way over the top. Really, nothing about Trump and his administration gives you the 1984 willies? |
Author: | Harry Marks [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:36 am ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
There was a movement, for awhile, to morally censure Masters and Johnson for asking people about their sex lives. If people didn't know that others engaged in behavior that violates norms, then they would be less likely to engage in it themselves. That isn't Orwellian. In fact it has been the default for millennia. It does oppose free speech, of a certain kind. Most of us can recognize it as advocating censorship. Yet where were the advocates of "religious liberty" when that proposal came down the line.
I had a friend once who argued that we should give Creationists their voice in science textbooks. Despite the fact that he understood Creationism has no place in science, doesn't do science, and stands in opposition to fundamental principles of science. "It's someone's perspective" was his argument. Well, sorry, we do not have to publish and teach everyone's perspective. That doesn't mean we make it a Thought Crime. We just point out the problems with it and de-platform it.
That's more than a little bit crazy. Thought conformity is the rule, not the exception. We always focus on the controversy, being little NPD's inside, but mostly people don't bother to challenge general views, including many that are set up specifically to enforce systems of power and privilege based on identity. It is a standard Narcissistic Personality Disorder approach to claim that any restriction on them is unfair, even while advocating the same kinds of restrictions on others. I am quite happy to believe this writer is more fair-minded than that, but the supporters of Southern and Molyneux, not so much. Picking and choosing your support of free speech, like the current effort to define criticism of Israeli settlements as "Anti-Semitism" is a way to undermine credibility fast. |
Author: | Harry Marks [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:21 pm ] | ||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | ||||||||||||||||||
But of course it isn't true. The notion that Russians, or Nazis, would have overthrown their oppressors if they knew they were being lied to is foolish self-delusion. True, the Nazis shamelessly claimed they were winning the war long after the tide had turned. But the bodies were coming back from the Russian front, and many, many people knew. A system based on fear, once in place, may prefer lies but it probably doesn't need them. Leaders seem to lie reflexively. From Gary Hart's "Monkey Business" and Ted Kennedy's Chappaquiddick incident to Ronald Reagan's heart telling him they weren't really selling arms to Iran to fund the Contras, their normal business of projecting an image shades naturally into putting out a story line. For that matter, most of us engage in a certain amount of "truth management." What is so astonishing about POTUS 45 is that his followers don't care about his lies. To some extent that is probably because he is seen as a truth-teller about things they have had to keep silent about for many years. And there is the flip side of that, which is that convenient lies are woven into the kind of tribalism that animates so many of them: a kind of group truth management. Just as the Shiites have their version and the Sunnis theirs, and the same for Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, and the Anglos and Quebecois in Canada, there is a group process aimed at managing the official narrative and it is not too dependent on evidence or even facts. A determined liar may appear to be useful for that kind of process (koff, koff, Sarah Sanders). And of course a final reason is that they don't much care about being knowledgeable, and to a large extent knowledge appears to them as something that has been relentlessly weaponized against them.
I remember the gall, 10 years ago, of saying nice things about McCain just because he had the integrity to push campaign finance reform and to stand up to the torture lobby. Well, there was more to his integrity than that, but he was still hip deep in the Republican sellout to the donor class and my little bit of appreciation was almost despite myself. In the same way, it's ironic that Jeff Sessions, one of the architects of voter suppression, now stands as an icon of principle. That's how far we have sunk in four years. And perhaps even more ironic that 45 is at last losing a sliver of his base for having called Sessions a "dumb Southerner." (He denies it of course, but he has zero credibility with anyone.) Like it comes as a surprise to Southerners that he would hold them in the same kind of contempt he holds everyone, up to and including himself. I really wonder what he thinks of Kelly and Mattis. Patsies? Useful idiots? |
Author: | Robert Tulip [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:37 am ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
There was a controversy on this in Australia with the head of our Human Rights Commission expressing sorrow that people are free to say what they like in their own homes. No wonder people see human rights as a stalking horse for state intrusion by Big Brother.
This is not about anti-vaccination kooks, but a medical doctor and by implication a prominent politician banned from discussing evidence that gender transition hormone therapy could nearly double the risk of heart attack or stroke. The irony of the vaccination comparison is that medical research on vaccines now has to walk on eggshells for fear of being distorted by the anti-vaxxers, and yet the anti-science mob is inside the palisade when it comes to gender fluidity.
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Author: | Harry Marks [ Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:22 am ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/spor ... women.html and it turns out that was not the simple, "she did it so she should accept the penalty" issue that many "sticklers" like Ramos believe. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/spor ... ained.html Neither side has shed much light on unconscious bias. It is easier to perceive than to demonstrate, but so far the evidence says it's real. My point was simply that raising this issue is probably a net positive, and I would add that those who take it seriously enough to take action are rarely in a position to create unfairness in the opposite direction.
At a private school where I taught for many years, an Israeli parent objected to the text the teacher had selected because it referred to Jewish "settlers" on the West Bank. Of course the real objection was to the subject coming up at all. At some point you have to ask yourself if openness to facts can be dismissed as "indoctrination" without damaging the democratic ethos.
A simple example: a Marxist sociologist pointed out that the police treat African-Americans differently because: their role is defined in terms of protecting property; black people have been effectively excluded from a lot of property; and part of "protection" turns out to be keeping it out of the hands of black people. Now, taken literally, as a description of how policing operates in the U.S., that is a complete crock. Yet in fact it explains a remarkably wide range of observations that a person probably could not make sense of without that key insight. Property-based racist policing is, one might say, an embedded system, hiding under the foliage of regular policing. Until a sufficient number of African-American police officers were hired, I would venture to guess that embedded system operated with impunity in most urban police forces. And if we didn't have Marxists eyeing things with their skepticism and advocacy, many fewer people would be aware of it.
The evidence actually says that children raised in same-sex households are at least as functional and well-adjusted as those raised in traditional husband-wife households. That doesn't mean there is something oppressive about holding up a heterosexual marriage as an ideal, but if someone gets into territory like saying a divorced heterosexual couple is better for the kids than a committed same-sex couple, they had better have some evidence. And if you don't recognize that the toughest part of the life of children of same-sex couples is the discrimination they face from ignorant scapegoaters, then I think you are not paying attention.
Of course my President has said things that are equally egregious opposition to free expression and the rule of law, and it remains to be seen if he will be held accountable.
I would have to see the specifics to assess whether you are talking sense or not. The concept of a movement to outlaw approving of merit strikes me as pretty far-fetched, and the chances of it being widely persuasive even more unlikely. Just because there are some people of a certain opinion who are also opposed to rational persuasion and freedom of speech does not mean that holding that opinion makes you such an opponent. These broad brush categorizations are getting pretty ridiculous.
Well, I am still on the side of expertise. If there are such risks, they should be admissible to public discussion and should be weighed carefully by doctors and, if necessary, parents. I think it's regrettable that the commentator you cited presented the issue as he did, because it sounded like he objected to a doctor being asked to back up medical views, which sounds pretty reasonable unless you are fighting ideological wars.
Radical gay indoctrination like "it's okay to be gay if you are gay"? I am missing the point here. If the risks are explained to parents, then presumably parents will work with kids who are "experimenting with gender fluidity" with those risks in mind. Schools don't need to be either encouraging or discouraging "experiments." If the parents request reasonable accommodation, I think the schools should do their best. And I think it is okay for society to oppose bullying. What am I missing? I remember when girls wanting to wear trousers was a "dress code violation." Boys growing their hair long, same thing. Are we really still unable to cope with non-conformity?
I'm not sure why a primary school is addressing such an issue, or why any school is addressing the "moral equality" or "moral inequality" of gender reassignment. There are facts which might be appropriate to teach at a somewhat older level, but my approach to controversial values issues was usually to introduce some of the complexity so that each side could have some appreciation for the other. Why should we be teaching a conclusion as "the right answer?" Even issues like slavery, that have been settled morally, can be presented for their complexity as a way of showing how people make arguments for their side to protect their interests, which is a valuable lesson in today's world. |
Author: | Harry Marks [ Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:01 am ] | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Post subject: | Re: 1984 by George Orwell - a discussion of Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I think this doublethink business is one of the key issues to reflect on, to get the full benefit of 1984. Currently the strongest model of progressive Christianity in terms of appeal to thought leaders is "non-dualism". If you took some of its key statements or texts and rephrased them as "you need to allow seemingly contradictory claims to sit side-by-side in your consciousness until you begin to see how they can both be true," you would not be far from the program of non-dualism. To see how that might possibly be true, consider the following pairs of ideas: - we each need to care for others as if they are ourselves; - we each need to give up our concern for our self. - we have learned to promote our own interests and feel bitterness and resentment when something stands in the way of them, and this makes us unfree; - if we have a contemplative stance, it will lead us to seek transformation in the structures of worldly power. - most people are limited to a religion of advancing their own interests (with help from God); - see God in every person. There is at least one serious contradiction in each pair. Yet, holding them together, without forcing one to be wrong and the other to be right, a unifying vision emerges. It is not so easy to see any unifying vision in the evangelical support for Trump. But if we adopt the perspective of the "non-cosmopolitans", who by and large do not participate in an economy of moving from place to place and do put strong emphasis on relationship to family and neighbors, a sense of the common ground emerges. Trump's patriarchal privilege is an outcome of the traditional sexual division of labor, which is still vitally part of the no-university economy, along with privilege for those who make lots of money, who may be presumed to be creating lots of value (even if, as it turns out, Hollywood and Russian Empire are responsible for his resurrection from a bankruptcy that was the result of plunging into mob-dominated gambling enterprise - these are not part of the Fox News worldview or narrative). Trump's opposition to a large role for government certainly makes sense for people trying to get by on self-reliance, with no corporate gravy train to hitch onto (I think that was what was behind the "personal responsibility" claim). Trump's opposition to immigration and imports resonates with the sense of solidarity for "us" that is a deep part of heartland thinking in the U.S. The lived experience of many evangelicals puts heavy emphasis on these values: traditional gender roles; self-reliance (within extended family and community mutuality); and solidarity. To outsiders, they may be all about condemnation and judgmentalism, but from their own perspective, they are about solid personal (spiritual) values that are under siege from the Coastal, cosmopolitan, privileged elites. Abortion has come to symbolize this split: urban types think it is important to let consumers treat their unborn children as a convenience or inconvenience, like one more thing you shop for, but people with solid traditional values know that sex has consequences and revolt at the idea of the fetus bearing the cost of it. If elites ever showed any respect for that principle, they might have a chance of getting a hearing for their concerns, but that would be asking too much from the people who "know" that their worldview is the correct one. Which brings us to the whole issue of political correctness, that Trump has become the symbol at the center of (by his own maneuvering). If there is one thing evangelicals know for sure it is that people with a master's degree don't give a fig for their views. So when academics and social justice warriors come on with "white privilege" and "white fragility" and "mansplaining" (and "human rights=same sex marriage"), the evangelicals are likely to react defensively. Who is going to join in somebody else's little morality play casting oneself as the villain? Especially the unwitting villain? Lots of figures have played that role before, from George Wallace and Ann Coulter to Ronald Reagan and Rush Limbaugh. Trump was a little more entertaining about his finger-in-the-eye effrontery, but he had the benefit of seeing how the others went about it, and he caught a wave. Why did that lead them to override what are commonly considered their core values? Mostly, in my view, they were painted into a corner. Ted Cruz lost. Trump polled well against the Democrats. What else was there to do but hold their nose and get on the wagon? And of course the incessant accusations of hypocrisy led them to dig in and defend their position ("we are forgiving" - same thing the RCC said about moving child molesters to new parishes).
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