Ch. 10: Bully for Brontosaurus
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:48 pm
Ch. 10: Bully for Brontosaurus
Please use this thread to discuss the above listed chapter of "Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life" by Daniel Dennett.Quality books. Great conversations.
https://www.booktalk.org/
Basically the idea is that in a small, isolated population, slight advantages are amplified within the gene pool, so that the character of the pool itself is able to shift rapidly.http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... ctuated_01
Thanks, Harry. I've never really understood the nuances of the dispute between Dawkins and Gould, but thanks to this incredibly well-written post, I believe I now have a handle on it. Dennett, I believe, has always favored Dawkins, and vice versa, and I can only imagine that he has taken up the gauntlet on Dawkins' behalf. At any rate, as much as I admire Dawkins, his dispute with Gould was clearly dogmatic in nature. And it seems to me he resorted to the same kinds of ad hominems and circuitous reasoning with respect to punctuated equlibirium that Dennett seems to be doing here. It's hard to imagine what Dennett thinks he's doing. Gould was still alive and well at the time Darwin's Dangerous Idea was published. I wonder if he ever responded to Dennett's aspersions. I'll bet he did.Harry Marks wrote: . . . Gould argued, if I understood his work correctly, that relatively infrequent "allopatric" events which broke one part of a population off in a dramatically different environment from that of the parent population were responsible, in the main, for speciation. This is a rather different view from the one in the textbooks I grew up with, which said random mutations eventually produced one that was important enough to generate a new species, a "macromutation" argument, or perhaps eventually accumulated sufficient differences "sympatric"-style, to emerge as dominant. Thus Gould gives primary roles to pre-existent variation, and to contingent events, which were absent from an all-adaptationist, all-gradualist version of the matter..
Well, I am happy if I have made anything clearer, but I am actually pretty ignorant about Dawkins vs. Gould. I read up on the controversy over Gould's "Non-Overlapping Magisteria Argument" (NOMA), where I think Dawkins is dead wrong in his reading of Gould, but I think we hashed that out on this forum many years ago. On the topic of evolutionary mechanism, I vaguely gather that two big egos clashed more over who revolutionized more, rather than over any real substance. Dawkins' observation that Gould only criticized "constant speed-ism" is, as I said, probably true but rather beside the point.geo wrote: Thanks, Harry. I've never really understood the nuances of the dispute between Dawkins and Gould, but thanks to this incredibly well-written post, I believe I now have a handle on it.
Thanks to a reference near the beginning of our reading of this book, we were directed to a review in the New York Review of Booksgeo wrote: It's hard to imagine what Dennett thinks he's doing. Gould was still alive and well at the time Darwin's Dangerous Idea was published. I wonder if he ever responded to Dennett's aspersions. I'll bet he did.
So your reading is the same as mine.geo wrote:Gould was never very subtle about his beliefs, and based on years of reading Gould, I am skeptical that he ever preferred skyhooks to cranes.
I wish I could promise you that your interest would be rewarded by something interesting.geo wrote:I'm very interested in seeing how Dennett comes to make that claim.
Thanks, I will mention it to our friends in the Raleigh-Durham area.geo wrote:As you may know, we are due for another solar eclipse this August 21. I mentioned my recent move to Franklin, NC, which just happens to be in the path of totality. So if anyone wants front row seats to this eclipse, please stop by Franklin, NC on Aug. 21.
I think Gould and Eldredge would argue that speciation drives the change in gene space (assuming I am interpreting "gene space" correctly as "the set of all genetic combinations present in some species capable of reproduction"). Of course both sets of constraints must be satisfied: there must be adequate potential within the gene pool to fill the niche (sea birds could not fill the niches that Darwin's finches radiated to fill in the Galapagos, predators could not just spontaneously arise to consume the tasty morsels of dodobirds on Mauritius,) and there must be a new and isolated opportunity.Robert Tulip wrote: It appears that in a stable niche, organisms will evolve quite rapidly to fill it, and then there will only be tiny incremental change until something disrupts the stability. Over evolutionary time, the ability to fill the available gene space is strong, and the change to this gene space is the driver of speciation.
I like the idea of a boundary of adaptation. It should be kept in mind that the boundary may be a matter of evolving harpoons in single-celled creatures, or coevolution of advances in digestion with microbiota, rather than always "faster, smarter, keener". But I suspect that this version of telos, like Dennett's "adaptation hills" may act sporadically if relentlessly.Robert Tulip wrote: So the telos of the gene space is the boundary of adaptation, limiting the potential of existing genes to exploit the opportunities offered by a stable environment. Only when the gene space changes, with a punctuation to the equilibrium, ranging from the entry of a new predator or pathogen, a change in climate, to a catastrophic extinction event, does potential emerge for significant speciation, beyond the simple linear change such as growth or shrinkage in size and gradual increase of camouflage caused by mutation in a stable situation. The non-linearity of speciation requires an external disruptor.
One thing Dennett has succeeded in is convincing me that "telos" is a very problematic concept. I am currently reading about memes, and whether it can be said that brains and computers are just hosts co-opted by cultural memes for their own reproduction. Makes my head spin, especially when I think about, for example, the virus spread in cat litter boxes which seems to influence human brains to be attracted to cats.Robert Tulip wrote:Punctuated equilibrium raises an interesting problem in evolutionary teleology.
‘Gene space’ is just a phrase I came up with to try to help picture the geometry of evolution. I don’t know if it makes sense, but I was thinking of gene space as meaning more the set of all genetic possibilities rather than as present combinations. So it is a trans-temporal idea, indicating where the present gene set could possibly go in the future, as the potential rather than just the actual. So the gene space of the savannah includes a giraffe with a very long neck nerve, (per Dawkins’ discussion of giraffe evolution). I am using gene space as a way to think about punctuated equilibrium, seeing a system where the potential gene space is fully occupied – like sharks which have been the same for tens of millions of years – as providing the basis for equilibrium.Harry Marks wrote:I think Gould and Eldredge would argue that speciation drives the change in gene space (assuming I am interpreting "gene space" correctly as "the set of all genetic combinations present in some species capable of reproduction").
And the key point that Gould makes is that the occurrence of new opportunities is decisive for evolution, punctuating the grammar and geometry of planetary history. As we all know grammar without punctuation loses a key element of causal logicHarry Marks wrote: Of course both sets of constraints must be satisfied: there must be adequate potential within the gene pool to fill the niche (sea birds could not fill the niches that Darwin's finches radiated to fill in the Galapagos, predators could not just spontaneously arise to consume the tasty morsels of dodobirds on Mauritius,) and there must be a new and isolated opportunity.
Your point about disastrous variation makes me think of that science fiction story (can’t remember specifics but perhaps Arthur C Clarke) about how as soon as intelligence evolves it goes extinct due to its extreme instability. To me that is a key argument for religion, as the framework of natural order enabling evolutionary survival, to cross the dangerous and difficult evolutionary threshold from instinct to reason and control our selfish genes. That is entirely how I read the Bible.Harry Marks wrote: stability is, in fact, the normal case even over geological time scales. What's going on may be that the happy accident of genetic potential meeting a new opportunity niche may be a very rare event (though it has happened to hominids at least six times in the last two million years - maybe it isn't all that rare but the apparent successes run into disastrous environmental variation relatively often, so that often catches them before they leave much fossil record).
Putting on your economic hat, I wonder if you think a boundary of adaptation may be analogous to the production-possibility frontier? All the accidental mutations in an ecosystem push to reach the telos of the system potential, but may reach it in slightly different ways, hence the boundary forms a connected genetic line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productio ... y_frontierHarry Marks wrote: I like the idea of a boundary of adaptation.
That is just a statement that Darwin’s ‘descent by modification’ was misconstrued through Spencer’s use of survival of the fittest to wrongly imply a purely competitive rather than cooperative model of evolution. Again, my use of evolution as a religious heuristic, seeing salvation as survival, recognises the essential role of invisible cooperation among microbes as core to the idea from Jesus and the Psalms that the least are first in the kingdom of God, and that the kingdom of the world wrongly imagines success against an instinctive assumption that the first are first, whereas in evolution the apex species only retain their peak position when the whole mountain supporting them remains stable. For example algae are at the foundation of the pyramid, and humans will need to make sure algae and soil bacteria etc have a fecund environment to avoid global collapse.Harry Marks wrote: It should be kept in mind that the boundary may be a matter of evolving harpoons in single-celled creatures, or coevolution of advances in digestion with microbiota, rather than always "faster, smarter, keener".
I don’t see sporadic as the right word here. Telos requires continuity, as any break in the causal chain punctuates the equilibrium, more as a pin in a balloon than a full stop or comma leading to a continuation of the grammatical idea.Harry Marks wrote: But I suspect that this version of telos, like Dennett's "adaptation hills" may act sporadically if relentlessly.
Unfortunately, the idea you imply here of selection for intelligence looks wrong, since rich and smart people now tend to have smaller families where they apply more care to each child, while the poor and stupid tend to have more children and rely on the state, through health and welfare systems, to prevent the mortality that in the past reduced child survival. So the overpopulation problem is more about the stupid outbreeding the smart, and then using democracy to increase tax on the rich and wreck the ability to generate wealth, in a trajectory towards collapse. It is a sad fact that only smart people tend to limit their family size out of concern for the planet and in response to the new career opportunities open to women, producing a secular declining trend in human intelligence as an evolutionary response to technology.Harry Marks wrote: I was listening to the BBC's "Why Factor" on "Why some people choose childlessness" as I drove around the capital city today. They noted that the ability to choose childlessness if you have a sex drive is relatively new. And I wondered if, in twenty generations or forty, childlessness by choice would be totally bred out of people. I rather suspect not. Not only does the childless person often contribute to the reproductive fitness of relatives, but the variation may continue to arise spontaneously. This is Gould's big obsession - variation is the byword of biology. You might think nothing is as ruthless as chosen childlessness in weeding out its genetic basis, but the genetics of such a trait may be very complex. It might, for example, be strongly associated with intelligence, (the BBC says women who find alternative sources of fulfillment are much more likely to choose to remain childless), in which case some of the people in that category go ahead and have children, with very high reproductive success because intelligent people have good options in the mating game.
Indeed it is. Like salvation, telos is a religious idea with so much metaphysical baggage that it is hard to salvage coherent meaning from the rubble of Christendom. But salvage we must, if we are to answer the basic question if life has any purpose or meaning. I see the movement of gene space to its adaptability frontier as the telos of human evolution, seeing the meaning of life as the good of the future.Harry Marks wrote: Dennett has succeeded in convincing me that "telos" is a very problematic concept.
It may be worthwhile to set the causal framework here in Aristotle’s theory of the four causes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_causes says In The Question Concerning Technology, Martin Heidegger explains the four causes as follows:Harry Marks wrote: whether it can be said that brains and computers are just hosts co-opted by cultural memes for their own reproduction.
I'm not particularly familiar with which points Dawkins made about them, but it is an interesting case. To say the potential existed within "proto-giraffes" before the latest speciation is not to say that there were occasional very long-necked individuals in the population of okapis which became giraffes. Rather, as some savant suggested (it may have been Gould where I read it) it seems there is a potential for a population to drift genetically in a particular direction. If you select for very tall individuals, the natural variation that arises in each new generation will create even taller ones in the next generation, and if they are further selected, still taller ones in generations beyond that.Robert Tulip wrote: So the gene space of the savannah includes a giraffe with a very long neck nerve, (per Dawkins’ discussion of giraffe evolution).
It is phenomenal how cooperation has gathered such momentum culturally that it does indeed outweigh the pressure of "our selfish genes" (who have, after all, had it easy until culture came along. It used to be no great feat to get animals to procreate, for example.) I suspect religion is going to turn out to be one of the many important tools in the toolbox of culture, and whether it plays a positive role may be a matter of whether reason can have enough influence on it.Robert Tulip wrote:Your point about disastrous variation makes me think of that science fiction story (can’t remember specifics but perhaps Arthur C Clarke) about how as soon as intelligence evolves it goes extinct due to its extreme instability. To me that is a key argument for religion, as the framework of natural order enabling evolutionary survival, to cross the dangerous and difficult evolutionary threshold from instinct to reason and control our selfish genes. That is entirely how I read the Bible.
I suspect that is a good analogy, but an even better one might be a production function. There have been some pretty effective estimations done of a "nutritional production function" for example, able to detail the tradeoffs between carbohydrates, fibre, fat, protein and sources of particular nutrients including vitamins and calcium. People in impoverished environments manage these trade-offs better than people in rich countries who face very little budget constraint on food. Similarly, biologists have had some success finding tradeoffs between energy expenditure and the gains from added survival or reproduction.Robert Tulip wrote:Putting on your economic hat, I wonder if you think a boundary of adaptation may be analogous to the production-possibility frontier?
Actually, there are several forces moving against that pressure. First, people tend to imitate those of higher status. So culture moves the "invest in children's minds" paradigm down from the rich and well-educated to the less advantaged. Second, status tends to confer the advantages I mentioned, in terms of mate selection and group nurturance.Robert Tulip wrote:Unfortunately, the idea you imply here of selection for intelligence looks wrong, since rich and smart people now tend to have smaller families where they apply more care to each child, while the poor and stupid tend to have more children and rely on the state, through health and welfare systems, to prevent the mortality that in the past reduced child survival.
I think you would be hard-pressed to show any relation between taxation of the rich and declining ability to generate wealth. The wealthy seem to be resourceful whether they have massive incentives or just some incentives.Robert Tulip wrote:So the overpopulation problem is more about the stupid outbreeding the smart, and then using democracy to increase tax on the rich and wreck the ability to generate wealth, in a trajectory towards collapse.
I must have missed the part where he provides any basis for thinking Gould's "quarrel" in fact represents such an effort. I certainly missed the part where he accurately states the basis for the views of the person he disagrees with. It looks very much to me as if Dennett dipped into the controversy thinking he had a ready-made example of skyhooking and ended up baffled by the complexity. So he decided to go with his initial appraisal, which is basically what skyhooks are about: imagining a mechanism where there isn't one, because it connects the dots of appearances.geo wrote:Dennett doesn't discuss Koestler's work, but in this chapter he goes to great lengths to suggest that Gould's long quarrel with adaptionism, gradualism, and extrapolationism are an effort to find skyhooks when skyhooks aren't really necessary.
In spots, it is true that Dennett shows much respect to Gould. But when your bottom line is disrespect, the respect you show just looks like lip service. In spots, he shows astonishing familiarity with Gould's work. But when he never engages the heart of the work, which is the Mayr's mathematics of speciation and Gould and Eldredge's application of it to the fossil record as punctuated equilibrium, then turns around and disses Gould as some sort of mystical or subconscious searcher for an impossible mechanism serving some wished-for purpose, (all the details of which, in classic skyhook fashion, are left completely vague), one has to wonder why he has any reputation for competence.geo wrote:this chapter effectively uses Gould as a jumping off point to argue some of the mechanics of naturalistic philosophy. In a way, he shows much respect and pays homage to Gould. He throws in a great baseball analogy—Tinker to Evers to Chance—and demonstrates an astonishing familiarity with Gould's work as well as with the man.
One reason Gould has taken such an active role in testifying against creationism (including Intelligent Design) in the science curriculum is that people have tried to twist his research and claim it supports their view. Scientists cannot be held responsible for what weird things others read into their research. Their job is to read the evidence and draw the conclusions the evidence points to. Period. Any wedge room for flat-earthers is irrelevant.geo wrote:I am more or less open to the idea that Gould was looking for a ghost in the machine, so to speak, at least on a subconscious level, and that he did in fact unintentionally provide lots of wedge room for Creationists. We've actually seen some of that here on Booktalk over the years.
Dennett has the grace to acknowledge this fact, though he ungraciously presents it as if it is a counter-argument against people (like Gould) who have made the same argument before him.geo wrote:There's a sense that new discoveries in evolutionary science are a weakness because they move us well beyond Darwin's original theory. But in fact, the new discoveries only make the theory more robust and dynamic.
I wish I could agree with you. I was interested in the later material on artificial intelligence, sociobiology and morality. I thought Dennett did some good work in bringing useful ideas, such as mechanisms that bring an algorithmic process closer to its true successes than random processes would do, in application on these related matters. But in the end his best work was in corralling the interesting work others have done to advance the discussion by tiny bits here and there. Not a waste of time for what is essentially a work of popularization, but nothing like the grand vision we were led to expect.geo wrote:I'm really starting to see this book as one of the most important books I've ever read. Dennett is adept in explaining the complexities of natural selection and in framing the theory's philosophical impact.