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Nominations for our September & October book poll

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:51 pm
by Chris OConnor
Please use this thread to suggest or nominate books for our September and October 2003 book poll. We will have a total of 3 or 4 books in the poll. Please think hard...don't suggest a book that doesn't fit with our mission.Quote:BookTalk is an online book discussion community dedicated to the advancement of critical thinking, reason, intelligence, freedom of inquiry, philosophy and the scientific method. Our focus is on reading and discussing quality nonfiction texts from a wide range of topics including atheism and agnosticism, freethought, comparative religion, religion and politics, humanism, philosophy, history, ethics, biblical criticism, psychology, contemporary issues, creationism vs. evolution, popular science, the paranormal, social science and current events, and much more.I'm putting this up early so we can really put some thought into our next book selection.Chris "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."

Re: Nominations for our September & October book poll

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:55 pm
by Chris OConnor
My suggestion...A few days ago I received an email from an author about his latest book. It seems like an incredible fit with what we are all about. Check this book out guys...The Great LieQuote:Using evidence from the Bible, Mythology and Archeology, we have shed new light on the birth and the nature of biblical religion. Abraham, the Chaldean sorcerer, lured local rulers in a trap of poisonous sorcery using his beautiful wife as bait. By "healing" the "plagues" he had produced himself he managed to acquire significant wealth and power. Abraham's descendents also followed this deliberate, repeated family plot! Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses used similar ruses to compromise persons, cities and even entire nations. Our unprecedented detailed interpretation proves that the "miracles" of the patriarchs were in fact crimes disguised as theology. Quote:This book is the result of original and daring research into the archives of our religious heritage. It grew out of the fertile comparison of the Biblical texts with the strikingly similar parallel tales of Greek-Mediterranean Mythology. The answer to the question "who copied from whom?" was just the starting point of our research that soon focused on the strange actions and deeds of the world-renowned heroes of the Bible. You will be guided in a colorful ancient world where the conflict of civilizations and ideologies culminates in dramatic clashes and entrapment of entire nations. Our cross examination of evidence from Archaeology, Mythology and Theological Texts has shed new light on the cunning, deceitful and authoritarian nature of religion. This book demystifies and interprets the actions of Abraham, Moses and the other Hebrew patriarchs exposing, for the first time, their true nature and the real causes of our present ills.THE GREAT LIEBy Michael KalopoulosTABLE OF CONTENTSMap of the Mediterranean.............................................................6Table of Contents...........................................................................8Acknowledgements......................................................................11Preface..........................................................................................12CHAPTER 1The Dawn of Creation..................................................................16Hesiod's Theogony.......................................................................22The Pelasgic Myth of Creation....................................................24Philosophical Theogony...............................................................25How the Universe came into being..............................................26The Creation of Man....................................................................27The forbidden Fruit......................................................................33The Gilgamesh Epic.....................................................................43Deucalion's Dove.........................................................................46The shattered 'Sun' of Antiquity..................................................59The Greek Babel..........................................................................67CHAPTER 2Abraham the Chaldean................................................................74The Sister 'Sting'........................................................................77An incredible Healer...................................................................82The profitable Transformations of Mestra..................................90Sarah, a Hebrew Pandora............................................................92Abraham burns down Sodom......................................................98Who were the Sodomites?.........................................................124Cretans, Canaanites and Philistines...........................................127A Price on Lot's Head................................................................131The Gods destroy sinful Cities...................................................138Do not look back........................................................................139Orpheus and Eurydice................................................................140Kenyras, Smyrna and Adonis.....................................................144Hagar the ill-treated Slave-girl...................................................145Isaac, the 'Sacrifice' that never happened..................................156'Greek' Sacrifices.......................................................................163Abraham, a dangerous Liar........................................................165Wisdom from Ur of Chaldea......................................................167Freud,Oedipus and Abraham......................................................173CHAPTER 3Isaac, the second generation of treachery...................................176The Family of the Patriarchs......................................................189'You will be my God, if...!'........................................................195Sly Jacob.....................................................................................196Jacob the imaginary Wrestler......................................................202The Dreams of the Patriarchs......................................................206Greeks, the 'God-Fighters'..........................................................209Meander: The wrestling Handgrip of the 'God-Fighters'...........211Homer: Proteus and Menelaus....................................................214Heracles, Idas and Apollo...........................................................216Shechem, an incredible Crime....................................................218CHAPTER 4Chaldeans and the Art of poisonous Sorcery..............................234Joseph 'goes' to Egypt................................................................238The amorous wife of Potiphar, the Eunuch................................242A Dream Interpreter... of prearranged Nightmares....................243Joseph: A devastating 'Saviour'.................................................253The Myth, once again..................................................................261Akhenaton in the Snare of Monotheism....................................268CHAPTER 5Exodus.........................................................................................280Perseus and Danae.......................................................................281Laius and Oedipus.......................................................................283Shiphrah, the heroic Midwife......................................................284Moses, the dark Prince................................................................287Midian, the Land of Preparation.................................................289Jehovah the Lord of the 'Plagues'..............................................297The River 'Plague'......................................................................301The Animal 'Plague'...................................................................306The Great 'Plague' is announced with 'Grace'...........................312A most peculiar Form of Slavery.................................................317The unleavened Bread of Salvation.............................................321Passover, the Diet of Salvation....................................................327Passover, the Night of Terror.......................................................331Despoiling the Victims of Passover.............................................341The leprous Hand of... Pharaoh.................................................346Exodus with unleavened Bread..................................................348The Red Sea Crossing-a staged 'Miracle'.................................350Hercules drowns the Vistons......................................................363CHAPTER 6Hermes' Harp of Interpretation..................................................366'Blessing' and 'Curse'-The Essence of patriarchal Deceit........374The Septuagint Translation........................................................388Miracles and Sorcery-The ancient Arts of the Gods.................393Questions-The straight and narrow path of the Greeks............404INDEX.......................................................................................420APPENDIX I ....Map of the Gulf of Suez.................................428TABLE OF ILLUSTRATIONS ................................................429PREFACEComparative Mythology, the comparison of ancient myths of different peoples, is afascinating field for research. Our study started with the comparison of a number of easternMediterranean myths, some of them well known and others obscure, with those parts of thebiblical narrative that include similar subject matter. This comparison has conclusivelydemonstrated extensive mythological loans that have been incorporated in the Bible. Moreover,our analysis has unexpectedly penetrated to an unprecedented depth, providing a new, rationalinterpretation of the biblical texts and particularly of the peculiar behaviour and inexplicable'powers' of the biblical heroes.In the first part of this book, the first chapters of the book of biblical Genesis are comparedwith parallel ancient Greek and Assyrian myths on Theogony 1, the Creation of Man, the GreatFlood and the multiplicity of Languages. The nature of the subject has made it necessary toinclude a number of references to mythical persons and situations that the average reader maybe unfamiliar with. However, in return for his small effort to come to terms with strangemythical names and locales, the reader will be guided into a fascinating world of great variety.Upon reaching the first world-renowned 'historical' hero of the Bible, the patriarch Abraham,our research changes direction and assumes a demystifying character. It appears that this greatbiblical personality who has been represented as 'lost' in the depths of history or as a personveiled in fantasy, has in fact played a much more important role in our lives and in our socialhistory, then we could ever imagine.Our examination of the biblical narrative struck an original vein and penetrated to substantialdepth, when we attempted to analyse rationally the deeds and words of Abraham, thatincontestable founder of three large religions. The rich 'biographical' data on his personalityrecorded in the Bible do not fit the pattern of a typical mythological hero. To our great surprise,we found the behaviour of Abraham, as it is described in the original biblical text to besurrounded by a host of unexplained elements incompatible with conventional religious,philosophical or mythological interpretations. Precisely the discovery of those peculiar,repeated actions of the patriarch has provided the 'key' to a reappraisal of the biblicalnarrative.The next step was to project our questions concerning Abraham's actions to the patriarchsthat succeeded him; the parallel examination of mythological tales that we have alreadymentioned has consistently proved to be a valuable aid in the scrutiny of their behavior. Ouranalysis has brought to light a host of new, original evidence, leaving little room for doubtconcerning the real circumstances of the creation and dissemination of biblical religion and thespecial knowledge and 'miraculous' abilities of the patriarchs!One of the most important obstacles in the way of our research was the difficulty created bynumerous 'corrected' and 'embellished' translations of the Bible. In those translations, theHebrew transcribers (Masorites 2) have eliminated all those details of the biblical narrative thatcould raise difficult questions during an inquisitive reading of the Bible. Gradually, they alsomanaged to impose the allegorical (adultered) way of interpretation that has, for centuries noweffectively covered up with veils of confusing interpretations and theological rose petals, thereal words and actions of the biblical heroes.We got priceless assistance from an existing ancient original translation of the Bible, theSeptuagint translation, compiled during the reign of Ptolemy the II. 3 This first translation intoGreek from the ancient Hebrew sacred texts was written by secular learned Hebrews ofAlexandria 4 in 270 B.C. under direct orders from King Ptolemy and against the will of theHebrew priesthood; it secured for us the most authentic translation of the original Hebrewsacred texts at an early time. The surviving Septuagint translation that has reached our handsrelatively unadulterated has proved the most valuable tool allowing us to detect the correctionsand interpolations in later, corrected (Masoretic) translations.What started as a typical comparative study between ancient Mediterranean Mythologies andthe Hebrew texts of the Bible has effortlessly evolved into a sweeping demystification of thebiblical heroes' behavior. Indeed, long before most readers have reached the last pages of thisvolume they will have acknowledged the validity of our claim: A great Lie with tremendoushistorical and social ramifications has been exposed, a Lie that has managed to thrive andsurvive to our days disguised as an object of religious veneration!Even if you do not accept our conclusions, this book will certainly upgrade your knowledgeand critical abilities. The detailed descriptions of the clash of civilizations and ideologies andof the ensnarement of entire nations and of their rulers included in the present volume 5 willguide you through some of the darkest pages of human history and allow you to see the biblicalnarrative from a new, different perspective.Of course, the claim that we should not scrutinize and judge the religion and the heroes of aspecific people is lacking any relevance whatsoever. Indeed, it may be considered downrightridiculous since for thousands of years half the planet has adopted as entirely 'its own' thoseparticular biblical tales! Indeed, we teach them systematically to our children because thosebiblical characters are considered universal models of virtue. We have been praising andextolling them for endless generations now, considering everything biblical as our ownspiritual heritage. Accordingly, the biblical texts are 'our own' as well and we are entitled toput the biblical 'heroes' to the question, since the Bible has regulated our lives and oursocieties for generations.2 Masorites: Hebrew transcribers of the Bible. For more details on the Masorites who for centuries havedeliberately been 'correcting' the biblical texts, and on the interesting events surrounding the various translationsof the Bible, see The Septuagint Translation in the last Chapter of this book. (pp 38 3 Ptolemies: Macedonian royal family founded by Ptolemy the I, general of Alexander the Great- they ruled overEgypt from 305 to 30 B.C. Ptolemy the II (285-247 B.C.) was the son of Ptolemy I. He was a renownedbibliophile who also founded the legendary Library of Alexandria.4 Alexandria: Seaport in Egypt on the Mediterranean coast on the Western part of the Nile Delta; originallyfounded by Alexander the Great, it soon became a centre for Hellenistic studies.5 The results of our research have already been published in Greek in three volumes named: 'The Great Lie','The Weapons of Deceit' and 'Abraham the Sorcerer'. They will soon be available in English.Our main concern is not whether the characters described in the Bible are historicallyaccurate, or myths formed around an historical core. In the long term such myths can prove farmore damaging than the actual deeds of the historical person itself. Accordingly, our mainconcern must be the actions, morals and ideologies described in the Bible and agressivelypromoted by the biblical texts. The persons embodying those ideals have been accepted bypious people as real for thousands of years and their actions must be judged accordingly. It istime we realized that we do not have only duties towards our objects of veneration, but theright of criticism and reappraisal as well! Besides, the truth should never have anything to fearfrom any question!Chris "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."

Re: Nominations for our September & October book poll

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:21 am
by curttheprophet
Yes, I'd like to get away from science briefly for the next selection. As an science enthusiast, I love it, but after reading Dawkins and now Pinker, it's time for a change. Something historical would be great, especially since I'm taking an Old Testament class starting in September and a New Testament class starting in January.As I mentioned in another forum, I'm currently reading The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell. I wonder if anyone else on this forum has ever read any Campbell? I've heard lots about him (his influencing of George Lucas for Star Wars, etc.), but I've never read anything by him until now.

Dennett?

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:36 pm
by Jeremy1952
After Dawkins and Gould, the name that seems to come up most often in modern biological thinking seems to be Dennett... so perhaps we should read Freedom Evolves. Science is neither a philosophy nor a belief system. It is a combination of mental operations that has become increasingly the habit of educated peoples, a culture of illuminations hit upon by a fortunate turn of history that yielded the most effective way of learning about the real world ever conceived. E.O.Wilson

Re: Nominations for our September & October book poll

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:36 am
by pctacitus
Ripples of Battle: How Wars Fought Long Ago Still Determine How We Fight, How We Live, and How We Thinkby Victor Davis Hanson.This book is due out in September.I've read some of his previous works, Carnage and Culture (which debunks Guns Germs and Steel), Wars of the Ancient Greeks, An Autumn of War (a collection of his esays of current events after 9/11) and Who Killed Homer?. I've found his work, including his current pieces in Commentary (he had a piece there in June) and National Review (he is a regular contributor to their site) to be provocative and insightful.

re

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:37 pm
by SciFell
Philosophy in the Flesh: The embodied mind and it's challenge to western thought. Quote:George Lakoff and Mark Johnson take on the daunting task of rebuilding Western philosophy in alignment with three fundamental lessons from cognitive science: The mind is inherently embodied, thought is mostly unconscious, and abstract concepts are largely metaphorical. Why so daunting? "Cognitive science--the empirical study of the mind--calls upon us to create a new, empirically responsible philosophy, a philosophy consistent with empirical discoveries about the nature of mind," they write. "A serious appreciation of cognitive science requires us to rethink philosophy from the beginning, in a way that would put it more in touch with the reality of how we think." In other words, no Platonic forms, no Cartesian mind-body duality, no Kantian pure logic. Even Noam Chomsky's generative linguistics is revealed under scrutiny to have substantial problems. Table of Contents Acknowledgments A Note on the References Part I HOW THE EMBODIED MIND CHALLENGES THE WESTERN PHILOSOPHICAL TRADITION 1 Introduction: Who Are We? 2 The Cognitive Unconscious 3 The Embodied Mind 4 Primary Metaphor and Subjective Experience 5 The Anatomy of Complex Metaphor 6 Embodied Realism: Cognitive Science Versus A Priori Philosophy 7 Realism and Truth 8 Metaphor and Truth Part II THE COGNITIVE SCIENCE OF BASIC PHILOSOPHICAL IDEAS 9 The Cognitive Science of Philosophical Ideas 10 Time 11 Events and Causes 12 The Mind 13 The Self 14 Morality Part III THE COGNITIVE SCIENCE OF PHILOSOPHY 15 The Cognitive Science of Philosophy 16 The Pre-Socratics: the Cognitive Science of Early Greek Metaphysics 17 Plato 18 Aristotle 19 Descartes and the Enlightenment Mind 20 Kantian Morality 21 Analytic Philosophy 22 Chomsky's Philosophy and Cognitive Linguistics 23 The Theory of Rational Action 24 How Philosophical Theories Work Part IV EMBODIED PHILOSOPHY 25 Philosophy in the Flesh Appendix: The Neural Theory of Language Paradigm References Index www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/ ... e&s=booksA wonderful book that explains why current findings in cognitive science radically changes how we think about Philosophy. The vast majority of Philisophical ideas from the past have been overturned by empirical evidence and it is time for the west to rebuild our science in an empirically responsible manner.Here is a discussion by Lakoff abou this book and ideas(well worth the read on it's own, in my oppinion):www.edge.org/3rd_culture/lakoff/lakoff_p2.html----It is our job here to bring our intellectual background into the foreground, to show that what have been taken as self-evident truths are really questionable opinions. -Lakoff Edited by: SciFell at: 7/9/03 4:46 pm

Philosophy in the Flesh: The embodied mind and it's

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:37 pm
by Jeremy1952
challenge to western thoughtI vote for this one! It sounds like another important step in consilient understanding. Science is neither a philosophy nor a belief system. It is a combination of mental operations that has become increasingly the habit of educated peoples, a culture of illuminations hit upon by a fortunate turn of history that yielded the most effective way of learning about the real world ever conceived. E.O.Wilson

Re: Philosophy in the Flesh: The embodied mind and it's

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:12 pm
by Chris OConnor
Any other info on that book? The poll will go up in about 3 weeks.Chris "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."

September October

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:11 pm
by Jeremy1952
I've had another brainstorm. Steve Jones (Darwin's Ghost) has a new book out titled Y. Subtitle: THE DESCENT OF MEN-Revealing the Mysteries of Maleness. I've recently read two great books about women, Natalie Angier (Pulitzer prize winning NYT science writer) Woman

Re: September October

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:28 pm
by LanDroid
How to Think About the Great Ideas: From the Great Books of Western Civilization by Mortimer J. AdlerI think this is a distillation of ideas from Adler's list of the Great Books of Western Civilization.