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Chapter 9: Therapy

Please talk about Chapter 9: Therapy here.

To my delight, this chapter began with a quote:-


“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

― Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

I would here point out that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was a convinced spiritualist and there are several books on the subject. One in particular being entitled: Joseph McCabe. (1920). Is Spiritualism Based On Fraud? The Evidence Given By Sir A. C. Doyle and Others Drastically Examined. London Watts & Co.

This chapter annoyed be more than somewhat. Sexual abuse of children by figures in authority over them - people whom they should be able to trust, like their own parents, is by no means the same as imagined alien abduction. It is insulting to such people for Sagan to lump them in the same psychological group. These children are damaged by the betrayal of their trust as much as by the actual abuse.

On page 155 of my book, the paragraph beginning ....In all three classes - specialists.....Where he gives reasons why specialist therapists can mislead victims, or use them to further their careers or bank balances....does not help to fill us with confidence that all memories of abuse are false......I cannot see what he is achieving towards his argument in all those odious anecdotes. Whatever happens in the world - climatic catastrophes, oil spills....etc. There is always an 'expert in the bleeding obvious' brought forward to pontificate...It infuriates me. 'There is going to be a heavy frost - minus 10 degrees below - so I would advise that you put on gloves and a hat'.......grrrrrrr.

Page 156 - paragraph beginning....If we fail to cope ....This is a very bald example of Sagan stating opinion disguised as fact....We can all quote anecdotal evidence to attempt to prove a point and I do think Sagan is taking it too far in this book. I also think he has covered the ground for alien abduction to excess.

Penelope wrote:Sexual abuse of children by figures in authority over them - people whom they should be able to trust, like their own parents, is by no means the same as imagined alien abduction.

What page is this on? I'll read through it. I would think that if Sagan made this comparison, it is in respect to a detail or characteristic, rather than a general comparison.

Page 149 -

The existence of any false accusation of childhood sexual abuse - especially those created under the ministrations of an authority figure - has, it seems to me, relevance to the alien abduction issue. If some people can with great passion and conviction be led to falsely remember being abused by their own parents, might not others, with comparable passion and conviction, be led to falsely remember being abused by aliens?

The more I look into claims of alien abduction, the more similar they seem to reports of 'recovered memories' of childhood sexual abuse. And there's a third class of related claims, repressed 'memories' of satanic ritual cults - in which sexual torture, coprophilia, infanticides and cannibalism are said to be prominently featured.

This is to quote but a couple of paragraphs, but the whole chapter is discussing these matters from the same perspective. It is a very cynical attitude.

I realise that Sagan wrote this almost two decades ago and it is only very recently in the UK that instances of historic abuse of children by politicians, television personalities, and pop stars are coming to light. Cover ups by those in authority, not to mention well-known cover ups of such abuse by the catholic church, protecting priests etc.

Not just evidence given by people who suffered abuse as children but the finding of explicit images on the computers of the accused abusers many of whom are household names.

These trials and accusations are going on now in the UK - and have been for months and months. With all this going on here, it is just hard to deal with Sagan's implication that so much of it is imagined.

Bad timing I suppose. Distressing never-the-less.

Penelope wrote:This is to quote but a couple of paragraphs, but the whole chapter is discussing these matters from the same perspective. It is a very cynical attitude.

I don't see anything wrong with the passage Penelope. You have to remember that a man like Sagan intends what he means. He mentions in the first sentence a specific type of child abuse case - the ones that are false accusations. Of course there are many real cases of child abuse, and they are heinous. But there are false accusations as well. He is making no judgement here between the two.

The point of the passage is that memories can be manipulated.

The existence of any false accusation of childhood sexual abuse - especially those created under the ministrations of an authority figure - has, it seems to me, relevance to the alien abduction issue. If some people can with great passion and conviction be led to falsely remember being abused by their own parents, might not others, with comparable passion and conviction, be led to falsely remember being abused by aliens?

- C Sagan

It was a poor comparison by Sagan and would have been better left out as a comparison, in my opinion.

Sagan seems to try to weave a lot of his opinion with a smattering of science.

Here is some information from the American Psychology Association website about "suggested memory"

The issue of repressed or suggested memories has been overreported and sensationalized by the news media

First, it's important to state that there is a consensus among memory researchers and clinicians that most people who were sexually abused as children remember all or part of what happened to them although they may not fully understand or disclose it. Concerning the issue of a recovered versus a pseudomemory, like many questions in science, the final answer is yet to be known

- emphasis mine

http://www.apa.org/topics/trauma/memories.aspx

Most people who've been sexually abused as children remember some of that abuse.
The issue of "psuedo memories" is still under scientific examination today. There's a lot to be known even today.

Sagan again is out of his realm of expertise. Psychologists know more now than they did in Sagan's time. Sagan is not a psychologist.
For Sagan to mention Alien sexual abduction/abuse in the same breath as child abuse is, in my opinion, arrogantly presumptuous, irresponsible, and distasteful.

The point of the passage is that memories can be manipulated.

He could have just said that instead.

Here's how he could have said it:

"memories can be manipulated"

But when you're a cosmologist I guess you can make claims related to child psychology.

Interbane:


The point of the passage is that memories can be manipulated.

Yes, you are right. I realise that is what he is emphasising; but labouring the point.

Another of our senses which we can't trust. The trouble is in cases of child abuse - our senses and judgement are all we have. If child abuse is suspected, that child must be removed to a safe place. If that means taking it from its parents, sometimes wrongly, then that has to happen because children have been tortured and killed when social workers have erred on the side of parents and guardians.

There will always be cases of children lying, or if babies, displaying bruising other than caused by abuse, but the responsibility is to protect the child for whatever reason. It is a harrowing job and one which I couldn't do, but it is necessary.

I'm sorry, but abduction by aliens is a bizarre claim and a case has never been proved. Child abuse has been proved, many times, therefore I think he should have chosen another subject to compare.

I am looking forward to the chapter on Detecting Balloney. It is taking a long time and a lot of dross to get to it. I am, however, reading on.

I'm sorry, but abduction by aliens is a bizarre claim and a case has never been proved. Child abuse has been proved, many times, therefore I think he should have chosen another subject to compare.

I'm not so sure on this point either. Although, I don't know how to discuss without offending you. I understand the vast majority of child abuse cases are real. I've had supplemental child abuse training(darkness to light), and they deliver a ton of horrible facts. It's a depressing topic.

But when I consider the false cases, there is something of scientific interest in the middle of the emotional turmoil. Specifically, the way in which memories can be manipulated by the questions that are asked. This could be a matter of media hype, as ant suggests, but I think there are a few cases where this was confirmed. They are worth noting if we're to talk about memory alteration and how that relates to alien abductions.

The point is, how far are we to trust our memories? It's not that there aren't monks who've memorized entire books. We all wish we were that person. But the point to take home with you is that when you rely on your memory, you could be setting yourself up for failure. So skepticism toward your own memory isn't a bad thing.

The point is the point could have been made without a comparison with child abuse allegations
Particularly when Sagan has no expertise in psychology particularly in areas of memory suppression as it relates to cases of sexual abuse.

Jesus Christ. Cant anyone disagree with HOW Sagan chooses to make a point?

I know because he's a scientist he's like a prophet but jeez.