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Chapter 16: When scientists know sin

This thread is for discussing Chapter 16: When scientists know sin.

I like this chapter, particularly his discussion about Edward Teller and nuclear proliferation.

Here is a youtube video with Sagan discussing Nuclear Winter.
I deeply respect Sagan's position.

I've been listening to the Sagan youtube video I provided above.

At about 39:15 Sagan asks a very odd question. One that I can't tell if he's joking pr not

Anyone else think he's simply being a hater?

Why do women in skimpy outfits follow athletes around and not scientists?
Sagan wants to know why.

An interesting chapter where Sagan outlines the need for a moral conscience in our chosen profession and also demonstrates how power corrupts. The most dangerous lies being the ones we tell ourselves.

I was thinking whilst reading this that it is not thermonuclear war which is the threat to society now, it is the Economy. It is still power corrupting, when some individuals are so wealthy that they can wield power over Governments. What do we do when those individuals refuse to behave ethically?What can we do?

Today in our daily paper there is printed, excerpts from a book by Stephen Green, a banker who now finds himself at the centre of the current HSBC tax scandal leaks. The book is entitled 'Good Value - Reflection on money, morality and an uncertain world'.

In one chapter he notes:

There will always be those who have not merely more than others, Some people will have more than they could conceivably need. How can we deal with this morally?
T
then further on he says:

As individuals, we do not govern our behaviour simply by what is allowed by law or regulation. We have our own codes of conduct, and hold ourselves accountable. We take responsibility for our actions.

I have been reading another Forum on here talking about morals and this rather fits in with the dilemas being discussed there.

There is a need for trust and honesty between those in power and the general populace. There is none at the moment and its likelihood of being regained looks remote.

The 85 richest people in the world have as much wealth as the 3.5 billion poorest. But as my son pointed out in a dinner table discussion the other week. We in the developed world are part of the 1% richest people,(I've just come back to edit this, as I have been thinking about it, and I think we are part of the 10% richest, not 1% - statistics, who needs em?) us, ordinary citizens. Now, as Stephen Green attests:

We can simply shrug our shoulders, or we can hear the still, small voice of conscience which reminds us, if we listen, that something is owed by the affluent. And a debt not paid is a debtor who is guilty.

I know I am speaking about the power of wealth here, rather than the power granted to top scientists.......but it is true that power corrupts and there is such temptation to ignore our responsibilities.

ant wrote:

Why do women in skimpy outfits follow athletes around and not scientists?
Sagan wants to know why.

It might be because scientists are often physically quite weedy. 'Nerds' if you like; and women are programmed to seek out fit and healthy mates to pass on the necessary genes to their children to promote a healthy bloodline.

Fortunately, love steps in and takes us for a spin. I always wanted to marry a tall, dark handsom Italian who would sing to me like Mario Lanza. But I fell in love with a shortish ginger headed Lancashire lad who makes me laugh........Laughing is better than being sung to.

t might be because scientists are often physically quite weedy. 'Nerds' if you like; and women are programmed to seek out fit and healthy mates to pass on the necessary genes to their children to promote a healthy bloodline.

Yep. I agree

I know that. You know that. But apparently Sagan didn't have a clue

ant wrote:

ep. I agree

I know that. You know that. But apparently Sagan didn't have a clue

Although, you know, wealth and power is very sexy. I don't think it would attract the sort of 'camp follower' in skimpy clothing. I think it attracts, slinky women in designer knitwear.

ant wrote:Why do women in skimpy outfits follow athletes around and not scientists?
Sagan wants to know why.

Hi ant, I think Sagan's point was that physical athletes get a kind of kudos in popular culture that he thinks mental athletes should get in some way.
Football and baseball are predominantly followed by males so of course the organisers are pandering to this fact by including cheerleaders. You see the same kind of phenomenon with boxing for instance.
In any case there is a group of former and current cheerleaders who have formed an organisation called Science Cheerleaders.
They are also scientists themselves.
They appear at science conventions occasionally but their goal is to promote science rather than particular science celebs.
Whether there will ever be cheerleaders for celeb scientists remains to be seen. Gooooooooo Dawkins!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtPGIzLubBVQ1 Bad link. It's Science cheerleaders.

Welcome back

Some guys have all the luck

many women can't abide a dumb man for an extended period of time, it drives them nuts.

you hear guys say the same sort of thing, "i was in love, till she opened her mouth."