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V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

#133: Sept. - Nov. 2014 (Non-Fiction)
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Chris OConnor

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V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

Please use this thread for talking about the section entitled "Natural Morality" in "Sense and Goodness Without God."
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ant

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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Section 5.5 - Reductionism.

Carrier states something here which caught attention: (emphasis mine)
Second, reduction does not necessarily correspond to a unique correlation of phenomena. For instance, mental and biological phenomena are the outcome of patterns of activity that could be manifested by several different materials. They only happen to have one in common, here on earth, but many others are possible and on other worlds may even be a reality. Psychology would apply equally to a mind produced by a biological or an electrical brain, if the patterns of activity were sufficiently the same. If an alien arrived whose brain used entirely different chemicals and structures to perform what are otherwise the same aggregate functions as our brains, our science of psychology would describe both minds, even though their underlying biology was different.
Really?

Are the patterns of brain activity for Terran subject "A" the same as Terran subject "B" when they are both experiencing an emotion like love?
Patterns of bio/chemical brain activity are never identical to someone else's.
If I'm wrong about this, someone point me to a study that clarifies this.

How would human psychology apply to an alien with a totally different chemical structure than ours if it is essentially chemicals that cause our psychological states? Plus, human and alien would lack the underlying commonality - EARTH - as a fostering environment.
A totally different alien chemical state would produce different "aggregate functions"

This seems like grandiose presumptuousness on Carrier's part.
He's allowing himself way too much leash here.
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Patterns of bio/chemical brain activity are never identical to someone else's.
If I'm wrong about this, someone point me to a study that clarifies this.
Of course you're not wrong about this. But this isn't what Carrier is saying.
ant wrote:How would human psychology apply to an alien with a totally different chemical structure than ours if it is essentially chemicals that cause our psychological states?
It would apply if the aliens brains "perform what are otherwise the same aggregate functions as our brains."

In other words, if the end on effect behavioral result were the same. Vastly different core computer programs can achieve the same result. Computer chips can also be cast into materials other than silicone. Information can be cast on many different mediums, and still retain the same meaning. Our chemicals cause our psychological states, but that doesn't mean other chemicals can't approximate them to a sufficient degree.
ant wrote:Plus, human and alien would lack the underlying commonality - EARTH - as a fostering environment.
A totally different alien chemical state would produce different "aggregate functions"
Maybe, but maybe not. How can you claim to know what's impossible? Besides, that's tangential to Carrier's point. The "if" statement is merely that. It doesn't need to be fulfilled for the logic to apply.
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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. Vastly different core computer programs can achieve the same result. Computer chips can also be cast into materials other than silicone. Information can be cast on many different mediums, and still retain the same meaning. Our chemicals cause our psychological states, but that doesn't mean other chemicals can't approximate them to a sufficient degree.
False analogy

Also,

What evidence is there for this, particularly chemicals that would be alien to us:
Our chemicals cause our psychological states, but that doesn't mean other chemicals can't approximate them to a sufficient degree
Maybe, but maybe not. How can you claim to know what's impossible? Besides, that's tangential to Carrier's point. The "if" statement is merely that. It doesn't need to be fulfilled for the logic to apply.
No, of course not.

'if" is the magical word here.


EDITED ABOVE: (SORRY - I AM MULTITASKING YOU)
Last edited by ant on Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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See above
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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False analogy
No it's not. The intended correlation is that different substrates and mechanisms can lead to the same output.
'if" is the magical word here.
Yep, it sure is. The logic holds true even if aliens don't exist; "reduction does not necessarily correspond to a unique correlation of phenomena."
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Maybe, but maybe not. How can you claim to know what's impossible? Besides, that's tangential to Carrier's point. The "if" statement is merely that. It doesn't need to be fulfilled for the logic to apply.
I may be repeating myself here, but...,

if alien chemicals were producing the same aggregate functions as humans within our earthly environment, then psychological analysis of alien mental states (ie various degrees of psychoses) would result in identical findings?

What's the point here beyond what may be something of fantasy but yet relatively obvious, as stated?

Also, Carrier stated himself that the one thing that is common is Earth, despite phenomena manifesting itself by a complex variety of materials.
That is key here.
If planet X is the environment, then reducing alien mental states by human psychological methodology would be ineffectual.


Am I clear here?

(fun stuff. of course we could never verify this until we are able to examine Marvin the Martian)
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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if alien chemicals were producing the same aggregate functions as humans within our earthly environment, then psychological analysis of alien mental states (ie various degrees of psychoses) would result in identical findings?
What's the point here beyond what may be something of fantasy but yet relatively obvious, as stated?
Carrier is using the analogy to explain something that’s already known, not to prove something that’s unknown. If you like, consider the computer analogy instead. The point is that reduction can lead to different substrates from very similar higher order phenomenon. We know this to be true in many areas. I’m not sure why he chose the alien analogy to make the point, although I also don’t see the same issues with it that you do.

If planet X is the environment, then reducing alien mental states by human psychological methodology would be ineffectual.
Unless the aggregate functions of behavior were the same. This might mean the environment also had to be quite similar, with the aliens having been tribal, competing for food and mates, reproducing sexually, etc.

My favorite part of this chapter is explaining how the sciences reduce from one to the next. Everything can be reduced to physics in theory, but not in practice.
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Interbane wrote:
if alien chemicals were producing the same aggregate functions as humans within our earthly environment, then psychological analysis of alien mental states (ie various degrees of psychoses) would result in identical findings?
What's the point here beyond what may be something of fantasy but yet relatively obvious, as stated?
Carrier is using the analogy to explain something that’s already known, not to prove something that’s unknown. If you like, consider the computer analogy instead. The point is that reduction can lead to different substrates from very similar higher order phenomenon. We know this to be true in many areas. I’m not sure why he chose the alien analogy to make the point, although I also don’t see the same issues with it that you do.

If planet X is the environment, then reducing alien mental states by human psychological methodology would be ineffectual.
Unless the aggregate functions of behavior were the same. This might mean the environment also had to be quite similar, with the aliens having been tribal, competing for food and mates, reproducing sexually, etc.

My favorite part of this chapter is explaining how the sciences reduce from one to the next. Everything can be reduced to physics in theory, but not in practice.
He's stated that an alien removed from its environment would still be able to be understood s a reducible material. by our understanding. That presupposes alien life develops along the same evolutionary processes as life on earth.
What evidence is there for that?
Too many presuppositions.
We can "if" stuff like this all day and say it all "logically follows" despite ZERO evidence.


Science reducing from one to the next is something I was already familiar with.
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Re: V. Natural Morality - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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He's stated that an alien removed from its environment would still be able to be understood s a reducible material. by our understanding. That presupposes alien life develops along the same evolutionary processes as life on earth.
What evidence is there for that?
It is assumed that the alien has the same aggregate function, not because they actually would in reality, but because it's an analogy, intended to show that reduction does not necessarily correspond to a unique correlation of phenomena.

It is assumed, for the purposes of analogy alone, that some arbitrary alien species has a mind with patterns of activity that are very close to our own.

I think you're reading way too far into this. He's not making a statement regarding aliens. He's using an analogy(that just so happens to have aliens in it) to make a statement about reduction. As I said, there are other analogies that serve the same purpose. I personally prefer the example of a computer that operates with different substrates. But this doesn't allow an easy path to segue into reduction of scientific fields.
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