Re: Ch. 1 - The Divided Self
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:03 am
I agree, LevV, but just wanted to point out that the statement you quoted was Robert's, not mine.
My example of hitting the desk clerk would be an example of my intellect overriding my gut instinct because I actually feel strongly that such violence would be wrong. It seems to me that overriding our instinct, or planning out and executing many deliberate conscious acts, does constitute free will.LevV wrote: Although I don't fully understand the philosophical arguments in support of his statement, my historical readings tell me that humans can rationalize all and any form of the most despicabl moral behavior. This tell me that our ultimate decision to act or not to act in areas of morality comes from a place that is deeper that our powers of reasoning.
If you plan out and execute deliberate acts, you have to ask why? Are you trying to make more money? Are you acting on the knowledge that resisting temptation will also deliver you from liver damage? Reasons are like logic code in a computer; just because they are information does not mean they don't supervene on physical systems. It also doesn't mean they are free from causality. They are segments of causal information. The algorithms that determine our choices and reasoning are far more complex than a computer, and analog to boot. But still at the whim of causality.It seems to me that overriding our instinct, or planning out and executing many deliberate conscious acts, does constitute free will.
Welcome to the "No Free Will" club.geo wrote:I don't doubt that all thoughts are computer code for our genes' survival machine. As such free will might be an illusion, but one that is subjectively meaningful. Love may be a chemical reaction, but we still feel it.
If you are a materialist, it is a short trip to determinism regarding free will I think (although not everyone agrees). As disturbing as the idea is, I find the argument very convincing. Although of course it hardly ever occurs to me in day-to-day life. We all act as if we could have chosen otherwise.DWill wrote:Someday I hope to understand what you and interbane are saying about this topic. You're both pretty cautious about claims, so the fact that you have some conviction about it makes me wonder what I'm missing. It's not surprising that if free will is an illusion, we would have built-in resistance to seeing it.
Good to know that I'm really two steps away. My obstinate question at this point would be, do you think free will being an illusion is more than a technicality? Is there some major, or even minor, adjustment we should be making in how we view personal responsibility and achievement?Interbane wrote: Not just understanding it, but getting to the point where it 'clicks'.
It's a technicality, but one that surfaces in unexpected ways in conversation. As far as adjusting views, I'm sure everyone is different. It adds nuance to many concepts, but doesn't really change anything. Everyone is still "responsible" for the same old things.My obstinate question at this point would be, do you think free will being an illusion is more than a technicality? Is there some major, or even minor, adjustment we should be making in how we view personal responsibility and achievement?