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Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:01 pm
by lindad_amato
I see what you're saying. However, because the Muslim countries' politics and government are based on their religion, isn't it fair to say that they disapprove of the intervention "on behalf of the Muslim populations". The US and other countries intervene to foster Democracy (which includes freedom of religion) or for economic reasons, not to help continue the Muslim beliefs.

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:54 am
by DWill
Dexter wrote: I find his arguments about the motivation of suicide bombers to be persuasive for the most part, but I think you also have to consider the mindset of the soldier who is willing to die for his country as an example. If they have convinced themselves it is a just cause, then it doesn't require religious beliefs to be willing to kill and die and to become desensitized to what most of us would consider horrific violence.
Sure, and you can't discount the power that becoming a hero has for a young man without prospects, either. Also the financial reward coming to his family. Not to mention that, from the little that I've read about suicide bombers, they are carefully indoctrinated by handlers. I think it could be an exaggeration to say that they step forward having this great desire to die, begging to strap on a bomb, and all because of the 72 virgins thing. It takes an awful lot to get most people to disregard self-preservation.

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:52 am
by Dexter
I found it surprising that Harris put in that bit about data attesting to the reality of psychic phenomena being ignored by mainstream science (p. 41). That makes me (slightly) curious about some of his sources. But while it's true that the universe is stranger than we might think, I suspect I'd be more skeptical than he is. If there really are anomalous results, surely some respectable scientists are interested in replicating the studies. See some comments on the recent story about evidence for pre-cognition. I think the basic idea is that statistical significance alone doesn't tell you much.

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:27 pm
by lindad_amato
DWill wrote:
Dexter wrote: I find his arguments about the motivation of suicide bombers to be persuasive for the most part, but I think you also have to consider the mindset of the soldier who is willing to die for his country as an example. If they have convinced themselves it is a just cause, then it doesn't require religious beliefs to be willing to kill and die and to become desensitized to what most of us would consider horrific violence.
Sure, and you can't discount the power that becoming a hero has for a young man without prospects, either. Also the financial reward coming to his family. Not to mention that, from the little that I've read about suicide bombers, they are carefully indoctrinated by handlers. I think it could be an exaggeration to say that they step forward having this great desire to die, begging to strap on a bomb, and all because of the 72 virgins thing. It takes an awful lot to get most people to disregard self-preservation.

Later in the book Harris has some interesting things to say about the financial and educational level of many suicide bombers. He discusses this to prove his point that Muslims are motivated by religious beliefs and not money, education,or lack there of.
Perhaps the underlying question is which comes first in Muslim countries the religion or the soldier?

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:05 am
by Dawn
I'm dipping in here rather late in the discussion, but hopefully not all ears have moved on... This is the first I've read of Sam Harris (apart from quotes on other threads) and I have to say I'm appalled at all the attention his writing gets, particularly on a forum that prides itself in citing 'evidence' and valuing 'critical thinking'. OK but since we're hear to talk about it, here are my initial thoughts.
Sam Harris' word choice alone is inflammatory and his broad sweeping generalizations have all the charisma of a religious fanatic. Many of his truth claims are given with no evidence. He has a novel idea--let's do away with all religion and faith. Interesting idea, not original though. Who does he propose will mandate such a thing? If indeed he's opposed to 'every human being [being] free to believe whatever he wants about God' (14,15) how is this an answer to violence and bloodshed? There have been/are communist states trying to enforce such things. Has he not read history? It doesn't appear that he has tallied the results and compared them to those resulting from 'religious' causes. The numbers would tell a different story than the sensational picture he is painting.
OK specific quotes that I would call inflammatory rhetoric without validity....
p16 "There is no more evidence to justify a belief in the literal existence of Yahweh... than.. Zeus."
re: the Bible
"...showing neither unity of style nor internal consistency"
Has he studied the Bible? or even read it?

p19 We know more than we did 2,000 years ago "and much of this knowledge is incompatible with Scripture."

p45
"It is time we admitted there is no evidence that any of our books was authored by the Creator of the universe."


My personal undocumented hunch is that SH has a 'beef' against religion and this is his 'big chance' to get the whole world on board to hate it too, in the name of saving us all from 'the abyss'... no need to agree with me, just my hunch.

Anyway, but a critique should always have something good to say. And I do too, but am going to submit this post first then on to the good stuff ( : Thanks for bearing with my gripes!

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:56 am
by Dawn
OK so Sam has done some intriguing thinking... His analysis of 'religious moderates' as people who have simply neglected to be faithful to the things they say they believe...have grown lax in their appraisal of their holy texts...and have hoped to accommodate other's views even if contrary to their own... is at least partially accurate. Of course I don't agree that their main fault is toleration of fundamentalists...but it's a unique idea(?)

What I found most surprising is his acknowledgement of the 'sacred dimension' of our existence, that there is indeed a 'need' for more than reason. [Thanks to DWill for the heads up on this in the Chap4 thread too, which I never responded to...re: there being more to atheism than reason, now I'm reading it for myself] It will be interesting to see where this idea leads. Is there any means of 'testing' the spiritual realm? I'm looking forward to more about using our knowledge of neuroscience (his specialty) to address this dimension. I guess we'll see whether (or not) "Science will not remain mute on spiritual and ethical questions for long".(43)

One shortcoming in his analysis of all the troubles caused by 'religion/faith' is the failure to discriminate between different religions. Because Islam has certain destructive tenets, does this mean all religious belief is dangerous. I would like to see more clear thinking on this. The fact is it is not faith/belief that is dangerous, but belief in a lie. Believing truth will bring freedom and life. Believing a lie always has the opposite effect. This is applicable in every realm of life. Of course it brings up the question of what is truth? And who's got it... but better turn to the real questions than thrash around in the dark at every one who believes anything strongly.

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:59 pm
by DWill
Dawn wrote:I'm dipping in here rather late in the discussion, but hopefully not all ears have moved on... This is the first I've read of Sam Harris (apart from quotes on other threads) and I have to say I'm appalled at all the attention his writing gets, particularly on a forum that prides itself in citing 'evidence' and valuing 'critical thinking'. OK but since we're hear to talk about it, here are my initial thoughts.
Sam Harris' word choice alone is inflammatory and his broad sweeping generalizations have all the charisma of a religious fanatic. Many of his truth claims are given with no evidence. He has a novel idea--let's do away with all religion and faith. Interesting idea, not original though. Who does he propose will mandate such a thing? If indeed he's opposed to 'every human being [being] free to believe whatever he wants about God' (14,15) how is this an answer to violence and bloodshed? There have been/are communist states trying to enforce such things. Has he not read history? It doesn't appear that he has tallied the results and compared them to those resulting from 'religious' causes. The numbers would tell a different story than the sensational picture he is painting.
OK specific quotes that I would call inflammatory rhetoric without validity....
p16 "There is no more evidence to justify a belief in the literal existence of Yahweh... than.. Zeus."
re: the Bible
"...showing neither unity of style nor internal consistency"
Has he studied the Bible? or even read it?

p19 We know more than we did 2,000 years ago "and much of this knowledge is incompatible with Scripture."

p45
"It is time we admitted there is no evidence that any of our books was authored by the Creator of the universe."

My personal undocumented hunch is that SH has a 'beef' against religion and this is his 'big chance' to get the whole world on board to hate it too, in the name of saving us all from 'the abyss'... no need to agree with me, just my hunch.

Anyway, but a critique should always have something good to say. And I do too, but am going to submit this post first then on to the good stuff ( : Thanks for bearing with my gripes!
Dawn, I think it's as important to catch the nuances about an argument as it is to pay attention to the main thrust. Today, especially, with such a "toxic" atmostphere created by conservative vs, liberal bomb-throwing, few seem to care about nuance. I get the feeling you're one of the few, though. But I would suggest that at the start of your post, you imply that everyone discussing the book has been uncritical about it. If you read the threads I think you'll see this isn't so. We've disagreed with him on several particulars.

As for your opinion that he slings around unsubstaniated charges, okay. But I wonder if a couple of factors might be involved in this opinion. He is writing an introductory chapter, in which typically the writer sums up what he's going to say more fully later on. Also, if you are expecting him to try to prove the presence of so much dangerous unreason in articles of faith, he's not going to do that. He's writing to an audience for whom that is not necessary. I doubt there is a book out there or a writer in the world who could change minds on this score, anyway. He's not going to try to convince the reader, for instance, of the irrationality of belief in a god-man whose father sacrificed him to expiate the sins of humans, and who after his death rose to heaven to dwell with his father, where he awaits the time of a cataclysm on earth to beckon him back to separate the saved from the lost. I would say that his core audience already agree with him here, as well on other matters of faith, and readers who do not will probably just not be able to stomach the book.

One other point I'll try to make is that the context of the threat from radical Islam is very important to note. He doesn't say that religion itself represents the "abyss," but that the denouement of the campaign of radical Islam could be the abyss for us. Again, it's nuance that needs to be considered, and if you do consider it I think you might see that it's not all religion that he hates so much.

I didn't address all your points, but have to go!

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:28 pm
by lindad_amato
"One other point I'll try to make is that the context of the threat from radical Islam is very important to note. He doesn't say that religion itself represents the "abyss," but that the denouement of the campaign of radical Islam could be the abyss for us. Again, it's nuance that needs to be considered, and if you do consider it I think you might see that it's not all religion that he hates so much"....Dwill

Fellow Readers
DWill's statement is a very important point to remember while reading this book. Also, the fact that it was written immediately following 9/11. The author was obviously greatly affected by the attack on the Trade Centers and hammers away on the threat of Islam throughout the book. He offers the theory that all true believers in Islam must be prepared to kill non-believers, in order to reach heaven.

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:09 pm
by Dawn
DWill wrote:
Dawn, I think it's as important to catch the nuances about an argument as it is to pay attention to the main thrust. Today, especially, with such a "toxic" atmostphere created by conservative vs, liberal bomb-throwing, few seem to care about nuance. I get the feeling you're one of the few, though. But I would suggest that at the start of your post, you imply that everyone discussing the book has been uncritical about it. If you read the threads I think you'll see this isn't so. We've disagreed with him on several particulars.
You're right. And I do appreciate that. I guess the fault may lie with my own expectations. I anticipated reading a more scholarly, well-documented work. Harris is new to me. And his style drives me crazy. An opinion is one thing. Having a thesis when you write is essential. But throwing words around with so little respect to truth... just undermines everything he's trying to say. It seems more emotional than rational.
Having said all that, I really should get off here and get reading and give him a chance to redeem himself.

Oh, first one thing I found fascinating. Harris' reference to the old guy from the 14th century being so out of date as far as technology is concerned and yet right on top of things as far as religion is concerned. This to me is an argument in favor of religion's validity! If it can last unchanged all that time it must be based on some real truth claims. Scientific claims are always in flux, theories being discarded and replaced. While the truth claims of the Bible don't have much to say about science, perhaps we can trust them on what they do say. They've stood the test of time. (And no, refusal to accept a heliocentric world has no foundation in the Bible. It was a mistaken view of the church at that time.)

Thanks for your feedback. I know I'm late to the game here.

Re: Ch. 1 - Reason in Exile

Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:27 pm
by DWill
Okay, I'll bring up a beef of mine with SH. On page 47, this negativity: "we have the likes of Bill Moyers convening earnest gatherings of scholars for the high purpose of determining just how the book of Genesis can be reconciled with life in the modern world." I saw some of that series and read some of the book. It's inaccurate to say its purpose was to "reconcile" the book with our times. There was some that was irreconcilable. And I consider his attitude to be illiberal as well. Not seeing the Bible as the literal truth is one thing, a thing I obviously agree with. Saying that it doesn't have value for us today is wrongheaded. SH elsewhere says there is good stuff in the Bible. He flatly contradicts himself above.
Dawn wrote: You're right. And I do appreciate that. I guess the fault may lie with my own expectations. I anticipated reading a more scholarly, well-documented work. Harris is new to me. And his style drives me crazy. An opinion is one thing. Having a thesis when you write is essential. But throwing words around with so little respect to truth... just undermines everything he's trying to say. It seems more emotional than rational.
Having said all that, I really should get off here and get reading and give him a chance to redeem himself.
I don't think you'll find much of a change in tone, Dawn (not wanting to spoil it for you). The book is a polemic; I think we can safely say that SH isn't shooting for scholarly detachment. But that is pretty much evident even just from the title.
Oh, first one thing I found fascinating. Harris' reference to the old guy from the 14th century being so out of date as far as technology is concerned and yet right on top of things as far as religion is concerned. This to me is an argument in favor of religion's validity! If it can last unchanged all that time it must be based on some real truth claims. Scientific claims are always in flux, theories being discarded and replaced. While the truth claims of the Bible don't have much to say about science, perhaps we can trust them on what they do say. They've stood the test of time. (And no, refusal to accept a heliocentric world has no foundation in the Bible. It was a mistaken view of the church at that time.)
As usual, whenever I want to take another look at a passage, I can't find it. But what SH is saying I agree with: in the 14th Century, religion was considered to be perhaps the main collection of human knowledge. That changed beginning a couple centuries later, until the knowledge load shifted toward science (I don't mean just science per se, but the scientific spirit, which would include higher criticism of the Bible). The educated person today would reflect in full this changed environment.

What are the truth claims of the Bible that don't have to do with science but are immutable? That's not a challenge question, just asking for your perspective.

Going way off topic, have you ever read the "Women of Genesis" series by Orson Scott Card? He's probably my daughter's favorite author, and she just brought home Rachel and Leah.