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Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6) 
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Post Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)

Please use this thread for discussing the above chapters. You're welcome to create your own threads too.



Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:04 pm
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Francisco D'Anconia is built up as another Hero in this chapter, with his childhood experiences with the Taggarts and his excellence in every pursuit he touches. But back to the very beginning of the chapter, Frisco is a Hero of a very different sort.
Quote:
The story on the front page announced that upon taking over the San Sebastian Mines, the government of the People's State of Mexico had discovered that they were worthless—blatantly, totally, hopelessly worthless. There was nothing to justify the five years of work and the millions spent; nothing but empty excavations, laboriously cut. The few traces of copper were not worth the effort of extracting them. No great deposits of metal existed or could be expected to exist there, and there were no indications that could have permitted anyone to be deluded. The government of the People's State of Mexico was holding emergency sessions about their discovery, in an uproar of indignation; they felt that they had been cheated.

...(Eddie Willers) said, his voice low, "Francisco is not a fool. Whatever else he may be, no matter what depravity he's sunk to—and I've given up trying to figure out why—he is not a fool. He couldn't have made a mistake of this kind. It is not possible. I don't understand it."

"I'm beginning to." (Dagny)

Another hint of hidden motives that will be admitted to, but remain unexplained later in this chapter. "Something is afoot", as Sherlock Holmes might say...
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Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:22 pm
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
At the end of Chapter IV "The Immovable Movers", Hank says to Dagny "whatever we are, it's we who move the world and it's we who'll pull it through." In this chapter, Dagny looks at Frisco and thinks "We are not to be stopped, you and I . . ." Obviously our Heroes are destined to strut across the world stage in titanium exoskeletons. :cylon:

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"Francisco, what's the most depraved type of human being?"
"The man without a purpose."

Ummmmm.... Seriously? We're supposed to believe that? Perhaps that's true for the Robo-Utilitarian where waste is worse than Evil?



Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
A drum roll please, for a biggie...
Quote:
"Dagny, there's nothing of any importance in life—except how well you do your work. Nothing. Only that. Whatever else you are, will come from that. It's the only measure of human value. All the codes of ethics they'll try to ram down your throat are just so much paper money put out by swindlers to fleece people of their virtues. The code of competence is the only system of morality that's on a gold standard. When you grow up, you'll know what I mean."

"I know it now. But . . . Francisco, why are you and I the only ones who seem to know it?"

Oh.Em.Gee. Please.Discuss.



Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:44 pm
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Immediately after the above conversation, we have this disturbing scene.
Quote:
"Well, I've always been unpopular in school and it didn't bother me, but now I've discovered the reason. It's an impossible kind of reason. They dislike me, not because I do things badly, but because I do them well. They dislike me because I've always had the best grades in the class. I don't even have to study. I always get A's. Do you suppose I should try to get D's for a change and become the most popular girl in school?"

Francisco stopped, looked at her and slapped her face.

What she felt was contained in a single instant, while the ground rocked under her feet, in a single blast of emotion within her. She knew that she would have killed any other person who struck her; she felt the violent fury which would have given her the strength for it—and as violent a pleasure that Francisco had done it. She felt pleasure from the dull, hot pain in her cheek and from the taste of blood in the corner of her mouth. She felt pleasure in what she suddenly grasped about him, about herself and about his motive. She braced her feet to stop the dizziness, she held her head straight and stood facing him in the consciousness of a new power, feeling herself his equal for the first time, looking at him with a mocking smile of triumph.

"Did I hurt you as much as that?" she asked.
He looked astonished; the question and the smile were not those of a child. He answered, "Yes—if it pleases you."
"It does."
"Don't ever do that again. Don't crack jokes of that kind."
"Don't be a fool. Whatever made you think that I cared about being popular?"
"When you grow up, you'll understand what sort of unspeakable thing you said."
"I understand it now."
He turned abruptly, took out his handkerchief and dipped it in the water of the river. "Come here," he ordered.
She laughed, stepping back, "Oh no. I want to keep it as it is. I hope it swells terribly. I like it."
He looked at her for a long moment. He said slowly, very earnestly, "Dagny, you're wonderful."
"I thought that you always thought so," she answered, her voice insolently casual.
When she came home, she told her mother that she had cut her lip by falling against a rock. It was the only lie she ever told.
p.77 - 78

OK we can understand Frisco's reason for wanting to slap Dagny, but to actually do it? And to have Dagny taking pleasure in a lesson well taught? Need some help on this one. I suspect this won't be the last act of pedagogical violence.



Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:54 pm
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Rand's values derive from her extreme experience under the first ten years of Russian communism, where everything solid melted into air and truth was transformed into its bloody opposite by the Leninist insanity. So she presents stark logical consequences of seemingly innocuous attitudes on the basis of bitter formative memories.

Rand sees the cult of popularity through hypocrisy as the greatest evil, which is why Frisco slaps Dagny for joking about it. Rand's point about morality is that ethical systems should build on a foundation of good action. Honest pursuit of wealth delivers far more benefits, is far more transformative, and lifts others up far more than any charitable good works, which only address symptoms rather than causes.

Cultivating your talents and fulfilling your potential is the highest good in Rand's moral scheme. Everything else flows from personal attitude. Not doing your best, and seeking popularity above integrity, are the start of a slippery slope to the evil of collectivist stagnation.


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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Robert Tulip wrote:
Rand's values derive from her extreme experience under the first ten years of Russian communism, where everything solid melted into air and truth was transformed into its bloody opposite by the Leninist insanity. So she presents stark logical consequences of seemingly innocuous attitudes on the basis of bitter formative memories.

Rand sees the cult of popularity through hypocrisy as the greatest evil, which is why Frisco slaps Dagny for joking about it. Rand's point about morality is that ethical systems should build on a foundation of good action. Honest pursuit of wealth delivers far more benefits, is far more transformative, and lifts others up far more than any charitable good works, which only address symptoms rather than causes.

Cultivating your talents and fulfilling your potential is the highest good in Rand's moral scheme. Everything else flows from personal attitude. Not doing your best, and seeking popularity above integrity, are the start of a slippery slope to the evil of collectivist stagnation.


Exactly, Robert. Also, Rand was a Romantic. Her ideal man was tall, slender and light eyed. She browbeat her husband (who was a handsome Hollywood actor) but subliminally longed for a man who would take control. There is also a rape scene in The Fountainhead, after which the woman is complacent. The dichotomy in Rand's female characters represent her own struggle with controlling the men in her life and wanting a man as intelligent as she who would control her, at least some of the time.



Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:23 pm
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Robert Tulip wrote:
Rand's values derive from her extreme experience under the first ten years of Russian communism, where everything solid melted into air and truth was transformed into its bloody opposite by the Leninist insanity. So she presents stark logical consequences of seemingly innocuous attitudes on the basis of bitter formative memories.


True, but I'd take issue with the bold part. Rand has business executives spouting commie slogans, which doesn't seem realistic at this point in the book. I wonder if the book would be more effective if they actually stated "seemingly innocuous attitudes". In contemporary terms, she would be more extreme than the Tea Party, so having the executives make statements somewhere near the middle/mainstream might be more instructive. I dunno, it's still early in the book and I haven't written a blockbuster, so I'm just speculating.

Lindad, we may have to start a thread at some point which explores the differences between Rand's philosophy and how she lived her life...

:bananen_smilies085: <=For no reason whatsoever



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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
LanDroid, count me in on that one. Atlas is full of philosophical dictates made in a vacuum. A look at her life shows how destructive her philosophy is in reality.



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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Hi Everybody, there were a few things that jumped out at me in these chapters. I particurlarly enjoyed the scene in chapter 6 where Frisco D'Anconia tells James that he incorporated all of the important moral issues and beliefs into the San Sebastian Mines and that since James is such a believer in these ideals that he should be happy that Frisco lost millions of his dollars in such a wonderful way. I also found it interesting when Frisco tells Dagny that he lost 15 mil of his own money but much more of Boyle's, Taggart's etc and that he is trying to wipe them out. I wonder if he is trying to ruin these businesses so the country will hit bottom and there will have to be changes?

We also start to see a few common traits among certain characters, such as Patrick Henry University as the educational institutional of D'Anconia and Ragnar Danneskjold. Both of whom were expected to do great things and came from old, families but both embraced unexpected paths. D'Anconia allegedly becoming a playboy (I say allegedly as I think he has a hidden plan here - that he has alluded to several times) and Danneskjold becoming a pirate.

It is also odd that everyone that people think of as great from the past they now believe to be dead, but they are actually alive - Halley and D'Anconia's old philopshy professor, which brings us to question the assumption of whether Galt is really dead or not. Rearden has also now been struck by the sudden resignation of one of his best employees. We also finally hear more about John Galt and that he was once a very wealth individual who sunk his own yacht and all its crew because he wanted to reach Atlantis. D'Anconia confirms that this story of Galt is true which Dagny hears from an old woman, but the old woman allegedly heard it from the only survivor so we are led to ask the question how does Frisco know that it is true? I'm also curious to see if Ragnar the pirate appears any more in the story. It seems odd that the first mention of any real information on John Galt has him as a wealthy sailor and that this appears in the same chapter as Ragnar the pirate, who also is quite wealthy and whose ship is in much better shape than the various navies of the world trying to catch him.

The other very powerful scene in chapter six is when Dagny exchanges her diamond bracelet for Lillian Rearden's bracelet of Rearden metal. Hank is unable to talk with Dagny in the setting of the party because he is not comfortable here, but he gets extremely angry over the bracelet swap.

Quote:
His eyes remained expressionless. Yet she was suddenly certain that she knew what he felt: he wanted to slap her face.


This is interesting to compare to LanDroid's quote of Frisco slapping Dagny when they were younger. Both instances Dagny is questioning the supposed values of society. Frisco slaps her for indicating that she might should conform to them, and Hank wants to slap her for questioning his wife's and society's criticisms of him and business in general. After this Hank decides that he no longer wants his wife and the reader is made to think he is focusing on Dagny now in a sexual way, which based on her history with Frisco this seems possible.



Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:13 pm
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Sal, I also noticed that all 'good men' are leaving society. Rand makes this very obvious - especially the scene where Dagny is offering her employee anything within reason in order to keep him and he refuses. Halley's 5th is a strong indicator that they are not dead but are living lives underground - in Galt's mythical Atlantis.

The part where Rearden wants to slap Dagny - didn't strike any parallels like it did with you. I just saw it as Rearden being completely removed from his wife. Of his life having no value to her and of Dagny's public display of that fact. A serious defeat for any man and the sting, for a competitive man, would have been intense.

Rand is really continuing to beat out her philosophy within these chapters. Property rights, production, perverted fair play, bad press to sway public opinion, and elements in society detrimental to growth and prosperity are all discussed.

The thing is, this philosophy of hers isn't a bad one, really. It's just entirely unrealistic given the nature of human beings as self serving creatures. Hardly a business man exists that will not find some way of squeezing additional profit or other self seeking motives. To say it's wrong isn't enough. To do something about it is the proper course of action. To run away from your problems is hardly a solution.

I'm having some trouble getting past this book as mere fiction. It's unrealistic. That's why I originally smiled when someone mentioned Steinbeck. Now there was a writer who actually wrote about 'real' people and 'real' problems. I'd advise anyone who gets sucked in by Rand to read Grapes of Wrath. There are 2 sides to the story. Not everyone is wealthy, nor smart, nor free from fault - but some are willing to work and to live as best they can and it's no reason to see them forgotten about. An unknown farmer who loses his house, watches his family fall apart while trying to rebuild his life, and will probably die having watched the death and decay of all he's loved all his life.... that's unacceptable to me.

That humanity plays such a contemptible and subversive role in this book is very concerning.



Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:04 pm
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Post Re: Pa===rt One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Yes, President, it certainly is concerning that Rand denies any altruism. The world needs both initiative and humane actions and she is two one sided in her philosophy. In reality it doesn't play out for an individual to be all of one and none of the other. I think that is what Frisco is attempting to prove.



Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:39 am
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
We're now seeing a two-pronged attack. The first one is passive: the mysterious resignations by productive people that hurts the corporation. The second prong is a direct attack that has been hinted at, but as sal10e mentioned is admitted by Frisco in Chapter V.
Quote:
"The price paid for those cardboard houses was the price that could have bought steel structures. So was the price paid for every other item. That money went to men who grow rich by such methods. Such men do not remain rich for long. The money will go into channels which will carry it, not to the most productive, but to the most corrupt. By the standards of our time, the man who has the least to offer is the man who wins. That money will vanish in projects such as the San Sebastian Mines,"

...look at San Sebastian. It cost me fifteen million dollars, but these fifteen million wiped out forty million belonging to Taggart Transcontinental, thirty-five million belonging to stockholders such as James Taggart and Orren Boyle, and hundreds of millions which will be lost in secondary consequences. That's not a bad return on an investment, is it, Dagny?" pgs. 95-96

There is a conspiracy to withdraw critical human resources from society and to deliberately make investors lose money even if the conspirator loses money, but the reasons and motivations behind these activities are still secret.

An interesting interchange between Dagny and Frisco immediately after the above, revealing there is blasphemy even under Rand's Atheism.
Quote:
She was not looking at him; she did not know that she was saying it aloud, quoting his words of the past: ". . . who'll do greater honor, you—to Nat Taggart, or I—to Sebastian d'Anconia . . ."

"But didn't you realize that I named those mines in honor of my great ancestor? I think it was a tribute which he would have liked."

It took her a moment to recover her eyesight; she had never known what was meant by blasphemy or what one felt on encountering it; she knew it now.

I was skeptical at first, but perhaps Mr. Tulip is correct about a religious aspect of this philosophy.



Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:03 am
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
Sex. Time to get into it.
:naked?:

Shortly after the bracelet exchange Dagny, in a one shoulder dress, walks up to Reardon:
Quote:
She stopped and looked up at him, as if they were alone in his office. She stood like an executive, her head lifted. He looked down at her. In the line of his glance, from the fingertips of her one hand to her face, her body was naked but for his metal bracelet.
"I'm sorry, Hank," she said, "but I had to do it."
His eyes remained expressionless. Yet she was suddenly certain that she knew what he felt: he wanted to slap her face.
"It was not necessary," he answered coldly, and walked on.

I like the "in the line of his glance" sentence, very observant. But notice the pairing of lust with violence, I suspect not for the last time. (Hat tip to sal10e on the parallels between this and Frisco's actual slap.)

Reardon has a stunted view of sex.
Quote:
But there were times when he felt a sudden access of desire, so violent that it could not be given to a casual encounter. He had surrendered to it, on a few rare occasions through the years, with women he had thought he liked. He had been left feeling an angry emptiness—because he had sought an act of triumph, though he had not known of what nature, but the response he received was only a woman's acceptance of a casual pleasure, and he knew too clearly that what he had won had no meaning. He was left, not with a sense of attainment, but with a sense of his own degradation. He grew to hate his desire. He fought it. He came to believe the doctrine that this desire was wholly physical, a desire, not of consciousness, but of matter, and he rebelled against the thought that his flesh could be free to choose and that its choice was impervious to the will of his mind. He had spent his life in mines and mills, shaping matter to his wishes by the power of his brain—and he found it intolerable that he should be unable to control the matter of his own body. He fought it. He had won his every battle against inanimate nature; but this was a battle he lost.

It was the difficulty of the conquest that made him want Lillian. She seemed to be a woman who expected and deserved a pedestal; this made him want to drag her down to his bed. To drag her down, were the words in his mind; they gave him a dark pleasure, the sense of a victory worth winning.

He could not understand why—he thought it was an obscene conflict, the sign of some secret depravity within him—why he felt, at the same time, a profound pride at the thought of granting to a woman the title of his wife. The feeling was solemn and shining; it was almost as if he felt that he wished to honor a woman by the act of possessing her. p.122

I'm sure a healthier view of sex will be revealed, probably when Dagny issues a primal scream. :mrgreen:



Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:17 am
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Post Re: Part One, Chapters V–VI (5 - 6)
For me, it was Dagny that slapped him in the face first, so to speak. The last quoted lines supports that, in that they had hurt him, so he used retaliatory force against her, if you will:

Quote:
“Well, I’ve always been unpopular in school and it didn’t bother me, but now I’ve discovered the reason. It’s an impossible kind of reason. They dislike me, not because I do things badly, but because I do them well. They dislike me because I’ve always had the best grades in class. I don’t even have to study. I always get A’s. Do you suppose I should try to get D’s for a change and become the most popular girl in school?”
Francisco stopped, looked at her and slapped her face.
[…]
“Did I hurt you as much as that?” she asked.
[…]
He answered, “Yes- […]


She was pleased that what she had said had affected him the way that it did:

Quote:
He answered, “Yes— if it pleases you.”
“It does.”


Although I don’t think that was her intention at all when saying that to hurt him. It just happened to when she said it. But that it did, so pleased was she, it was like getting a ‘gold star’ slapped on her, something she was proud of having received from him:

Quote:
He turned abruptly, took out his handkerchief and dipped it in the water of the river. “Come here,” he ordered.
She laughed; stepping back. “Oh, no. I want to keep it as it is. I hope it swells terribly. I like it.”


Anyone who has or will read Ayn Rand’s novel The Fountainhead might recall, or will read a passage in it that involves Dominique. I would love to quote it here, but it would ruin it for the people that have not read it. I think people will know the passage that I am thinking of. It’s not a similar situation, but it’s the way in which Dominique thinks about her body after something had occurred, that reminds me of the way in which Dagny speaks in regards to what had just happened to her.

Later in this chapter, you see Frisco having inner conflict over something we know not what. But later on in the book, we will, and can look back at this very moment, and understand the struggle with himself , which we can‘t understand right now:

Quote:
He lay on his back, half-propped by a pillow. She saw his profile against the foggy glow of the night sky in the window. He was awake, his eyes were open. He held his mouth closed like a man lying in resignation in unbearable pain; bearing it, making no attempt to hide it. She was too frightened to move. He felt her glance and turned to her. He shuddered suddenly, he threw off the blanket, he looked at her naked body, then he fell forward and buried his face between her breasts. He held her shoulders, hanging onto her convulsively. She heard the words, muffled, his mouth pressed to her skin:
“I can’t give it up! I can’t!”
“What?” she whispered.
“You.”
“Why should—”
“And everything.”
“Why should you give it up?”
“Dagny! Help me to remain. To refuse. Even though he’s right!”
She asked evenly, “To refuse what, Francisco?”
He did not answer, only pressed his face harder against her.
She lay very still, conscious of nothing but a supreme need of caution. His head on her breast, her hand caressing his hair gently, steadily, she lay looking up at the ceiling of the room, at the sculptured garlands faintly visible in the darkness, and she waited, numb with terror.
He moaned,
“It’s right, but it’s so hard to do! Oh God, it’s so hard!”
After a while, he raised his head. He sat up. He had stopped trembling. “What is it, Francisco?”
“I can’t tell you.”
His voice was simple, open, without attempt to disguise suffering, but it was a voice that obeyed him now. “You’re not ready to hear it.”


So the reader, at this point, may ask, who is “he” that Frisco referred to? And what isn’t she ready to hear?

In Chapter 6, at Lillian’s wedding anniversary party, someone said:

Quote:
[…]I read an article recently which referred to him as the last of the great advocates of reason.”
“Just what did Hugh Akston teach?” asked the earnest matron.
Francisco answered, “He taught that everything is something.”


That would have to do with identity. To be, is to be something. It’s essentially Aristotelian, and a fundamental part of Rand’s metaphysics in her philosophy of Objectivism. To be something, means having a specific identity, a specific nature. Her ethics is based upon that. She looks at man, who has a specific identity, a specific nature, and looks at what the factual requirements of man’s life is, and builds her morality upon that. If one wants to know further about what Frisco said, and what I just did, later in the book, you will encounter more about this. But I laugh when I read it in the scene, because of the kind of convo’s are going on at Lillian’s party.

President Camacho wrote:

The thing is, this philosophy of hers isn't a bad one, really. It's just entirely unrealistic given the nature of human beings as self serving creatures.


Actually her morality is based upon the factual requirements of man's existence, which in itself entirely realistic to do, and the morality is built upon that.


More from Chapter 6:

This is a great passage, because it throws Taggart’s moral ideals right back in his face, showing how impractical they really are in practice (In Rand‘s morality there is no dichotomy between that which is moral and the practical - it is the practical because it is the moral, it is the moral, because it is the practical):

Quote:
Francisco stood looking at him in polite astonishment. “Why, James,” he said, “I thought you would approve of it.” “Approve?!” “I thought you would consider the San Sebastián Mines as the practical realization of an ideal of the highest moral order. Remembering that you and I have disagreed so often in the past, I thought you would be gratified to see me acting in accordance with your principles.” “What are you talking about?” Francisco shook his head regretfully. “I don’t know why you should call my behavior rotten. I thought you would recognize it as an honest effort to practice what the whole world is preaching. Doesn’t everyone believe that it is evil to be selfish? I was totally selfless in regard to the San Sebastián project. Isn’t it evil to pursue a personal interest? I had no personal interest in it whatever. Isn’t it evil to work for profit? I did not work for profit— I took a loss. Doesn’t everyone agree that the purpose and justification of an industrial enterprise are not production, but the livelihood of its employees? The San Sebastián Mines were the most eminently successful venture in industrial history: they produced no copper, but they provided a livelihood for thousands of men who could not have achieved in a lifetime, the equivalent of what they got for one day’s work, which they could not do. Isn’t it generally agreed that an owner is a parasite and an exploiter, that it is the employees who do all the work and make the product possible? I did not exploit anyone. I did not burden the San Sebastián Mines with my useless presence; I left them in the hands of the men who count. I did not pass judgment on the value of that property. I turned it over to a mining specialist. He was not a very good specialist, but he needed the job very badly. Isn’t it generally conceded that when you hire a man for a job, it is his need that counts, not his ability? Doesn’t everyone believe that in order to get the goods, all you have to do is need them? I have carried out every moral precept of our age. I expected gratitude and a citation of honor. I do not understand why I am being damned.”
In the silence of those who had listened, the sole comment was the shrill, sudden giggle of Betty Pope: she had understood nothing, but she saw the look of helpless fury on James Taggart’s face.


Also in that chapter, a woman at the party speaks about John Galt:

Quote:
“The Isles of the Blessed. That is what the Greeks called it, thousands of years ago. They said Atlantis was a place where hero-spirits lived in a happiness unknown to the rest of the earth. A place which only the spirits of heroes could enter, and they reached it without dying, because they carried the secret of life within them. Atlantis was lost to mankind, even then. But the Greeks knew that it had existed. They tried to find it. Some of them said it was underground, hidden in the heart of the earth. But most of them said it was an island. A radiant island in the Western Ocean. Perhaps what they were thinking of was America. They never found it. For centuries afterward, men said it was only a legend. They did not believe it, but they never stopped looking for it, because they knew that that was what they had to find.”
“Well, what about John Galt?”
“He found it.”
Dagny’s interest was gone. “Who was he?”
“John Galt was a millionaire, a man of inestimable wealth. He was sailing his yacht one night, in mid-Atlantic, fighting the worst storm ever wreaked upon the world, when he found it. He saw it in the depth, where it had sunk to escape the reach of men. He saw the towers of Atlantis shining on the bottom of the ocean. It was a sight of such kind that when one had seen it, one could no longer wish to look at the rest of the earth. John Galt sank his ship and went down with his entire crew. They all chose to do it. My friend was the only one who survived.”
“How interesting.”


Interesting indeed. A place where only hero-spirits can enter, and they reach it without dying because they carry the secret of life within them.
What also is interesting is what Frisco says:

Quote:
”The joke’s on that fool woman. She doesn’t know that she was telling you the truth.”


_________________
"Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self."
- Cyril Connolly

My seven published books are available for purchase, click here:
http://www.amazon.com/Steven-L.-Sheppard/e/B00E6KOX12


Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:59 pm
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