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Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations https://www.booktalk.org/part-2-ch-1-emanations-t10283-15.html |
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Author: | tat tvam asi [ Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations |
The literalism is still difficult to pin down. Freud offers a possible origin explanation in Moses and Monotheism but there's no concrete solution on the table. I don't know how there could be. The way Origen speaks of the creation account it makes me wonder how many of the leaders actually took it completely literal. It's complete nonsense when taken literal and that much was evidence enough even back in Origens day. He believed that a God created the world but he didn't take the myth literally to the letter. |
Author: | geo [ Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:47 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations | |||||||||
I agree, Tat. I just posted that footnote because it came up in my reading. I'm not familiar with Freud's thoughts on the subject, but I would imagine that this "aberration" (the move to a more literal view of a culture's myths) must evolve with religion itself in its transition from animism to polytheism to monotheism as societies themselves evolved from chiefdom, to nation-state, to empire. As a society progresses and becomes more complex, the role of religion seems to change. As Tat says, a metaphorical religion is far weaker in terms of social power and control as opposed to a literalist reading. If this is true, we are indeed tools of religion. Apologies to Wright. |
Author: | DWill [ Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:36 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations | |||||||||
The flexibility regarding the historical question is helpful. Probably today we still have roughly the same proportion of those who head for the exoteric content vs. the esoteric. Exoteric=popular, I would think is a fair generalization. I also see the value in flexibility about whether texts have primarily an eso- or exoteric thrust. Again, there is likely to be a mixture, especially for writings like the Gospels, whose authors didn't exercise strong authorial control over the contents. They apparently tried to summarize both the events and the theology rather than injecting novel content. Of course their own perspectives played some role in what they emphasized. For me, the exoteric purpose of the gospels stands out as the reason they were written in the first place. I can't see these narratives being written as allegories of ancient symbolism, though that may be seen as a constituent in them. There is too much that relates to the situation, socially and religiously, that the writers looked out on. The Gospels as well as Acts are propaganda, if I can use that word without the highly negative meaning it usually has. The exoteric nature of the Gospels could be what recommended them to the church fathers compiling the Bible in the 4th Century, as opposed to the gnostic books. So considering every text individually seems to be the best approach. |
Author: | tat tvam asi [ Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:33 pm ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations | |||||||||
Geo, this is a fast forward in time from the Hero but here's a bit from "Thou Art That: transforming religious metaphor" p.43 - 49
And what Campbell didn't delve into, which he knew of course, is this evolution from polytheism to monolatry and finally to monotheism. The creator God in Genesis was not a God, but rather the "Gods", the Elohim of Canaanite origins. So it was really two stories of "Gods", both of which came from a more remote Middle Eastern period and then were eventually interpreted in singular God terms much later. Campbell, for the sake of the audience, relayed the myth in terms of how it's generally understood by modern monotheistic understanding audiences. It's evident that these creation and flood myths were not originally on the literalistic level that came much later with the late evolution of a monotheistic reading. But the deeper mythological roots founding it all is evident and can be brought to the surface for closer analysis. There's a clash of Nomad myth with agriculturalist myth and the whole thing is sort of thrown together... |
Author: | geo [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:42 am ] | |||||||||
Post subject: | Re: Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations | |||||||||
Thanks, DWill, you make some excellent points. It does seem that with any religious text you will get the full gamut of interpretation--from exoteric to esoteric, probably from the start. The proportions may fluctuate some over time in response to conditions on the ground. When things are bad, for example, a more exoteric perspective is called for to summon hatred for the enemy. Asserting that the myths were intended as esoteric from the start may be farfetched. Though I still think it's difficult from the 21st-century to really understand the ancient perspective. With so much uncertainty in their lives, certainty would have been a strange concept to them. It seems possible that stories were told as possible explanations for the way things were, one easily substituted for another or all held equally valid. Another factor is that a great many of the ancient myths we are talking about existed, in some cases for many centuries, strictly as an oral tradition. As such, the stories would have been in a constant state of flux, adjusted to suit differing cultures and conditions, before eventually being written down. The bards would have told the same tale in different ways. The medium itself was inconsistent. There are many such creation myths and flood myths that resemble one another in some ways, but also differ significantly in other ways. The Iliad seems to bolster DWill's view that myths were viewed more literally early on and more metaphorically later. The scholarly view is that the ancient Greeks (1000 BC) possibly would have literally believed the instances of divine interventions in the epic poem, but around Homer's time, the Greeks supposedly were more skeptical of those deities and probably read them as entertainment or nostalgia of ye olde days. |
Author: | DWill [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations |
What you've written, geo, is a good illustration of my signature line by Thomas Sowell: "All that makes earlier times seem simpler is our ignorance of their complexities." I truly believe that things were no less complex in 2,000 year-old societies than they are today. There are different dimensions of complexity, so our society might be more complex on one dimension, but perhaps less complex on another. |
Author: | geo [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Part 2 - Ch. 1: Emanations |
Not to beat a dead horse, but the question of whether or not the primitives literally believed their myths is addressed somewhat in part II, ch. 6 Folk Stories of Creation. "It is difficult to know how seriously or in what sense these stories were believed. The mythological mode is one not so much of direct as of oblique reference: it is as if Old Man (of Blackfeet legend) had done so-and-so. Many of the tales that appear in the collections under the category of origin stories were certainly regarded more as popular fairy tales than as a book of genesis. Such playful mythologizing is common in all civilizations, higher as well as lower. The simpler members of the populations may regard the resultant images with undue seriousness, but in the main they cannot be said to represent doctrine, or the local "myth." The Maoris, for example, from whom we have some of our finest cosmogonies, have the story of an egg dropped by a bird into the primeval sea; it burst, and out came a man, a woman, a boy, a girl, a pig, a dog, and a canoe. All got into the canoe and drifted to New Zealand.54 This clearly is a burlesque of the cosmic egg. On the other hand, the Kamchatkans declare, apparently in all seriousness, that God inhabited heaven originally, but then descended to earth. When he traveled about on his snowshoes, the new ground yielded under him like thin and pliant ice. The land has been uneven ever since.™ Or again, according to the Central Asiatic Kirghiz, when two early people tending a great ox had been without drink for a very long time and were nearly dead of thirst, the animal got water for them by ripping open the ground with its big horns. That is how the lakes in the country of the Kirghiz were made." (pg. 248) I'm reminded of the Brer Rabbit tales which were transplanted to the American south from Africa with the slaves. It seems unlikely that the slaves actually believed these tales, but at some point in their lineage, perhaps their ancestors ancients did. Although, again, the original tales were likely very different. For some reason this subject fascinates me. |
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