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Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:11 pm
by DWill
Robert Tulip wrote: I don’t agree that Dawkins is ‘silent on what drives evolution’. His work is precisely about this question. The extended phenotype, the effects of genes in the world, is the point of linkage between the gene and its niche. Natural forces provide the enabling context for all evolution. The description of these natural forces enables us to understand the direction of evolution. The slow wind that Dawkins describes is an example of a weak natural force, blowing on average one mile per thousand years. My suggestion is that we can look for such slow weak forces by examining the regular cosmic factors that provide the external structure within which life on earth has evolved. The day and year are major observable structures, cyclic patterns of terrestrial time, that strongly bind the direction of evolution through diurnal and seasonal cycles. If the day and year sit within bigger older regular structures, it is entirely logical to postulate that these structures are, in your paradoxical phrase, a weak (but powerful) force.
If Dawkins would label "natural forces" as driving evolution, he would do so more to indicate where we are ignorant than to suggest an answer. "Natural forces" is no answer at all, any more than "cosmic forces" is. In science, there is always a frontier that is beyond our current knowledge, because we have to learn continuously by experiment and induction. Dawkins isn't answering any question with his "slow wind" analogy, only guiding us in speculation.

The question that is still beggared is where your science is. Starting with a paradigm is nothing more than using deduction, isn't it? Where is the data that shows any observable or inferrable physical effect of planetary motion or position on life on earth? It's not enough to believe that all of that "must have" influence over evolution and human history. You could say that to look for or even expect such evidence is logical, but it wouldn't matter because not all logical processes lead to scientific evidence.

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:40 pm
by Interbane
DWill, I think the answer is that we know many of the specifics that cause change, but that's like knowing the colors of a painting. Listing off the colors doesn't produce art. We could say that Africans have darker skin due to longer sun exposure. Yet, that's one influence/adaptation amongst millions. While we may know more and more of the specifics, it serves the general audience better for a scientist if he refers to these influences as natural forces. There's nothing mystical about these natural forces, it's just that there are so many, and we've only yet hypothesized so few.

The question is whether or not there are seemingly influential forces that actually do not serve any benefit to be adapted to, for an organism to be sensitive to. How many organisms have adapted to the steady continual drifting of continents, or the el nino weather patterns, comit orbits, etc.

My problem with the direction Robert is currently going is that there is nothing physical to adapt to. He splts the seasons into 3 mathematically, but there's no physical corollary. It's a manipulation of data, not an observation of physical processes. The same is true of the 2148 year ages as well.

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:20 pm
by Robert Tulip
Interbane wrote:
The historical theory I have presented suggests that the Great Year has a temporal pulse with period 2148 years, so that each of the twelve ages of the Great Year have a common repeating pattern, much as the day and the year have common repeating patterns, and in direct resonance with these shorter periods.
In what way does the 2148 year 'pulse' manifest? The temporal pulse. A pulse refers to something physical, right? This is the same question I had for the divisions you mentioned between the seasons, each 'month'. What is the physical demarcation?
The Zodiac Age, the 2148 year pulse of the earth, manifests as a resonant relation between the earth and the whole solar system. My Solar System Planet Clock shows how the whole solar system, as indicated in the motion of the sun against the center of mass, has a pulse of 179 years, precisely 1/144th of the earth's Great Year.

The Great Year is a planetary pulse of 25765 years (like the wobble period of a gyroscope) within a larger system (sun and gas giants) that has pulse of 179 years. The 2148 year Zodiacal Age is the period that links these two natural cycles.

SSB/ZA = ZA/GY and ZA = √ (SSBxGY), where Solar System Barycenter = SSB, Zodiacal Age = ZA and Great Year = GY. Setting SSB = 1 and GY = 144, we have 1/ZA = ZA/144, giving ZA = 12. While there is a small drift in this relation, it basically stands so that the Planet Clock is an accurate model of the solar system over millions of years at least. The Age can be further divided into twelve hours as described at my planet clock link.

Here we see the cycle of 12, as shown in ordinary clocks, is embedded in the temporal structure of the earth. It means that the model described here of the Great Year is not just a one-time event, but is a permanent depiction of the temporality of the earth since the solar system stabilised. There have been about 175,000 Great Years since life began, or about 100 since the homo genus split from australopithecus 2.5 million years ago.

If each Great Year is like the 'wheel spinning backwards' on a movie film, relating to the much faster forward spin of the year/wheel, and moreover the Great Year has a precise physical relation with the solar system, then we can analyse the Great Year to understand the astrophysical structure of terrestrial time. This is an ancient problem - Plato said in the Timaeus that the key to wisdom is to understand how the solar system relates to the galaxy.

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:35 pm
by Interbane
The Zodiac Age, the 2148 year pulse of the earth, manifests as a resonant relation between the earth and the whole solar system.
Why do you continue answering without answering?!? What is this 'resonant relation'?!? Do you mean an actual physical resonance?

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:23 pm
by Robert Tulip
DWill wrote:Starting with a paradigm is nothing more than using deduction, isn't it? Where is the data that shows any observable or inferrable physical effect of planetary motion or position on life on earth? It's not enough to believe that all of that "must have" influence over evolution and human history. You could say that to look for or even expect such evidence is logical, but it wouldn't matter because not all logical processes lead to scientific evidence.
The paradigm is based on inductive observation, using deductive inference within an empirical framework of inductive observation. Claims of historical effects of cosmic cycles are deductive, but the model I have presented in the solar system planet clock is inductive, based purely on observation. It is inductive to say the Great Year marks the slow passage of the sun around the ecliptic as seen from earth, but deductive to say that the Great Year divides in twelve Zodiacal Ages by harmonic resonance with the solar system as a whole, and even more deductive to say that these twelve ages relate to the structure of the annual year and have observable historical effects.

You are correct to observe that this model presents a structure of time that may or may not have observable effects. We know that if there are any such effects, they are too weak to show clear patterns that stand without dispute in mainstream science to date.

As Interbane noted, Gauquelin's claimed Mars Effect is hotly disputed, showing that even if his statistics are valid, his critics are able to obfuscate enough to prevent mainstream recognition. If there is an effect, it is extremely weak, comparable to Dawkins' evolutionary wind blowing at one mile per thousand years.

My opinion is that this situation regarding acceptance of Gauquelin's findings is in large part political, with the modern rationalist movement quite hostile to the possibility of cosmic effects as a recrudescence of primitive fatalism. Analytical methodology has been weak in this area, with Gauquelin the best. His hostile reception drove him to suicide, and the implication that he may have killed himself because his claims were fraudulent is a foul slur on one of the greatest scientists of modern times.

The question is where we can look for information to validate the deductive model of the Great Year as the framework of history. Einstein looked to observation of the perihelion of Mercury to provide inductive proof for his deductive model of relativity. Finding evidence for the Great Year in history is paradoxically both easier and harder than the relativity problem. It is easier in that there is a wealth of mythic material in the Bible, the Vedas and elsewhere that shows ancient thought was structured by this Great Year model. As Tat Tvam Asi and I have argued, using the lens of precession unlocks the code of the Bible. However, the scientific status and implications of this material lacks mainstream acceptance.

This paradigm shift is more complex than relativity for a range of reasons. The only data we have to validate the claimed temporal cycle of the Great Year is its presence in the evolution of human thought, because other effects are too weak to leave any trace. The abundant traces in mythology include the claim that the Holy City of the Bible is primarily a description of the Great Year. This is a jolting shift from traditional theology, providing a scientific framework to read and understand the Bible. The fact that the Bible remains in widespread use as a tool to contest scientific method is a stumbling block to this scientific research program.

__________ 18 Jan 2010 06:23 __________
Interbane wrote:
The Zodiac Age, the 2148 year pulse of the earth, manifests as a resonant relation between the earth and the whole solar system.
Why do you continue answering without answering?!? What is this 'resonant relation'?!? Do you mean an actual physical resonance?
Yes I do mean an actual physical resonance. My discovery of the relation between the Great Year and the Solar System Barycenter is a new scientific finding. The earth sits within both the 25765 year spin wobble cycle of the Great Year and the 179 year cycle of the solar system barycenter as permanent structural cycles. The barycenter cycle naturally causes the Great Year cycle to divide in twelve segments at the period in inverse relation to both, ie the Zodiacal Age, as a main natural rhythm of the earth.

As I said here in response to a question from Oblivion,
Your metaphor of an orbital sounding board is good. The first challenge is to accept as a hypothesis that planetary motions over very long time periods form wave patterns which can interact. Your musical analogy of the sounding board, which expands the resonant volume and tone of a musical note, helps to explain how this may be possible.

The main long term cycle of movement for the earth is the Great Year, caused by the wobble of the axis. The main long term cycle of movement for the solar system is the position of the sun against the centre of mass, a cycle caused by the orbits of the gas giants. The solar system as a whole is therefore like a ‘sounding board’ for the earth, but in a sense this relation is mutual, in that we can see the Great Year as the mundane sounding board for the basic rhythm of the whole solar system.

Continuing the musical analogy, we have two wave functions, one with period 25765 years (the Great Year of the earth) and one with period 179 years (the solar system centre of mass). In music, each octave doubles the frequency. Therefore, if we consider the Great Year as analogous to a musical note of frequency one hertz, the centre of mass has frequency 144 hertz and the Zodiacal Age has frequency 12 hertz.

Modelling the Great Year frequency as the note C 64 Hz, the Zodiacal Age has frequency twelve times this, G 768 Hz, and the Centre of Mass has frequency twelve times higher again, D 9216 Hz. The multiple of twelve times the frequency produces a note that is three octaves and a perfect fifth higher. On a piano, these three notes are low C, middle G and high D, each 3.5 octaves apart.

The perfect fifth is the next strongest resonant frequency after the octave. So we can say the frequencies of the Great Year and the movement of the solar system resonate against each other like sounding boards through their common perfect fifth relation to the frequency of the Zodiacal Age.

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:47 pm
by Interbane
In what way does 179 years relate to the great age? The numbers don't match.

The net effect of what you're suggesting is that the center of mass of the solar system affects life on Earth? Did you incorporate all massive bodies into your formulas? The asteroids in the kuiper belt and such? Does the barycenter occur at the precise same point with relation to Earth every 179 years?

This still doesn't explain what the net effect would be as a discrete physical effect every 2148 years.

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:59 pm
by Robert Tulip
Interbane wrote:In what way does 179 years relate to the great age? The numbers don't match.
In rounded numbers, 179 x 12 = 2148, 2148 x 12 = 25776.
In more exact numbers, 178.92 x 12 = 2147.04, 2147.04 x 12 = 25764.48.

The 1/144 SSB/GY ratio is extremely close.
The net effect of what you're suggesting is that the center of mass of the solar system affects life on Earth? Did you incorporate all massive bodies into your formulas? The asteroids in the kuiper belt and such? Does the barycenter occur at the precise same point with relation to Earth every 179 years?
That's easy Interbane, and shows you have not read the text at my solar system planet clock closely enough, where I state
Planetary influence on the centre of mass is shown by the barycentric formula r = a/(1+m1/m2), where r is the radius of the sun, a is the distance from the sun to a planet, m1 is the mass of the sun and m2 is the mass of the planet. The relative effects of the planets on the barycenter given by this formula are Jupiter 49%, Saturn 27%, Neptune 15% and Ouranos 8%. The four inner planets in total have 0.1% of Jupiter’s effect on the barycenter. These relative planetary effects are readily seen by examining a graph of the barycenter-sun distance over time, in which the three biggest planets produce a wave function with period 179 years, or 1/144th of the Great Year of the earth.
Each JSN conjunction every 179 years occurs thirty degrees further around the ecliptic, as shown in my planet clock, so over the period of the Age there is one conjunction in each of the twelve signs of the zodiac within a conjunction family.
This still doesn't explain what the net effect would be as a discrete physical effect every 2148 years.
You are quite correct here. I am arguing this is a deep rhythm encoded into all life on earth. Quantifying its effects is rather like getting data for Dr Dawkins' hypothetical slow wind. I tend to think of it on the Indian causal model of karma, with the idea that causality has slow waves with period one age. It means we are now getting to the stage of the Age of Pisces that the Age of Aries reached in 140 BC, just as we are now getting to the same point of the year that we reached on this date last year and every year before that. The annual climate is steady, although the weather differs a lot. This is highly speculative, but I suggest provides fertile ground for historical analysis.

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:14 am
by Interbane
You are quite correct here. I am arguing this is a deep rhythm encoded into all life on earth. Quantifying its effects is rather like getting data for Dr Dawkins' hypothetical slow wind
How would this rhythm encode itself into life on Earth? This is so much more far reaching than suggesting an adaptation, such as can be found in organisms responding to the rising and falling of tides.


In any case, small gravitational shifts are not comparable to wind. Extremely weak wind has direction and is constant, if only on average. This was my problem originally, and the one I keep referring to. Why does life on Earth care about the barycenter of the solar system? Exceptionally weak wind I could hypothesize, it's practical. Astrological influences is nothing more than grasping at straws. In what ways do you hypothesize life would be affected? Humor me, I bet you can't even form a good hypothesis! That's reverse psychology, not an insult.

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:11 am
by Robert Tulip
Interbane wrote:
You are quite correct here. I am arguing this is a deep rhythm encoded into all life on earth. Quantifying its effects is rather like getting data for Dr Dawkins' hypothetical slow wind.
How would this rhythm encode itself into life on Earth? This is so much more far reaching than suggesting an adaptation, such as can be found in organisms responding to the rising and falling of tides. In any case, small gravitational shifts are not comparable to wind. Extremely weak wind has direction and is constant, if only on average. This was my problem originally, and the one I keep referring to. Why does life on Earth care about the barycenter of the solar system? Exceptionally weak wind I could hypothesize, it's practical. Astrological influences is nothing more than grasping at straws. In what ways do you hypothesize life would be affected? Humor me, I bet you can't even form a good hypothesis! That's reverse psychology, not an insult.
The main long term cycle of the earth, after the day and the year, is the Great Year. The Great Year is written in to the Bible as the structure of the Holy City, providing inductive evidence for the deductive reasoning from the astronomy of the Great Year, much as the observation of precession of the perihelion of Mercury provided inductive evidence for the deductive mathematics of relativity.

If we hypothesise a microbe living on a gyroscope with stable wobble for billions of years, we can well imagine that it could internalise the wobble in its DNA. Exactly the same thing applies for the earth. Now, if this hypothetical gyroscope is within a gravitational field with a weak pulse with period precisely 1/144th of the wobble period, how would this manifest? This is the situation for the earth. My claim is that the pulsing field of the center of mass may not have direct effect, but may be sufficient to provide a regular structure to the earth's wobble. Triple conjunctions of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune every 179 years form a barycenter wave pattern, shown in my essay The Gas Giant Planets, The Holy City and the Great Year. These triple conjunctions circle the ecliptic every 2148 years due to each conjunction in a family occurring almost precisely one zodiac sign past the last one, so, in simplified terms, after twelve events the conjunction is in about the same place. The 2148 year return period of the JSN conjunctions may well aggregate its effect, in harmony with the Great Year, such that a temporal cycle of 2148 years duration is established on earth.

How I see that life would be affected derives from the claim that the signs produce an annual rhythm, caused by the solstices and equinoxes, with cusps around the 21st of each month. Although this rhythm is too weak to be seen in statistical analysis to date, my view is that is because of weak research models, and that larger and more systematic epidemiological studies will show sign effects as real. Gauquelin did not find any evidence for signs in his research, although he found compelling evidence for planetary effects.

The present state of play is that astrology has the status of a pseudo-science because of lack of evidence. My claim is that starting from the longest regular periods of the earth provides a more scientific way into the subject matter than psychological analysis of horoscopes, a topic that now generally relies more on symbolic imagination than mathematical evidence of the sort I am providing here.

Here is a gospel song I have written about this material

Seven days of creation, into the seventh day.
Twenty four hours of the Day of Brahm, into the third hour.

On the first day of creation, Adam and Eve fell from the Garden of Eden
On the first day.

On the second day of creation, Noah and his Ark survived the flood.
On the second day.

On the third day of creation, Abraham married Sarah of the Vedas.
On the third day.

On the fourth day of creation, King David brought the Ark to Jerusalem
On the fourth Day

On the fifth day of creation came Jesus Christ, the alpha and omega, the sun of love
On the fifth day

The sixth day of creation was the dawn of modern times.
On the sixth day.

And the seventh day is the sabbath day, the healing day, the day of peace
Into the seventh day.

There are twenty four hours in the day of Brahm, into the third hour.
There are seven days of creation, the future is the seventh day.

Robert Tulip

Re: Astrological Ideas in The Extended Phenotype

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:15 am
by DWill
Robert, I'd be a fool not to respect your intellect, but it seems so clear to me that your hunger for transcendence is the powerful force behind your insistence on astrological science. You won't like this comparison, but it is the best way I can make my point. Creation scientists also have the accoutrements of science behnd them. They have their data and schematics to create the impression of empiricism. But they know going in what their data must prove; they already assume the theory to be true, so it is just a matter of their arranging the facts to line up with it.