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Ch. 16: Is Religion Child Abuse?

#64: Mar. - May 2009 (Non-Fiction)
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Chris OConnor

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Ch. 16: Is Religion Child Abuse?

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God is Not Great

Ch. 16: Is Religion Child Abuse?


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DWill

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Maybe we could at least agree that the term "child abuse" should not be used casually to refer merely to child-rearing practices we don't agree with or think are wrong. I think if we can agree, we'd get out of the way the matter of whether every parent sending kids off to Sunday school is abusing them: in most cases, of course they're not.

Most of the examples Hitchens gives in the chapter, on the other hand, rely on no exaggeration to qualify as child abuse. The few that might not reach that level are still disturbing.
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religion and child abuse

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DWILL wrote:
Maybe we could at least agree that the term "child abuse" should not be used casually to refer merely to child-rearing practices we don't agree with or think are wrong. I think if we can agree, we'd get out of the way the matter of whether every parent sending kids off to Sunday school is abusing them: in most cases, of course they're not.

The doctrines in many religions if practiced and believed by children will continue to affect them as adults. The fear of God, the fear of not going to church, fear. Symptoms of child abuse oftentimes do not present themselves until adulthood.

I disagree with your above statement. I believe that rigid religious practices exposed to children and enforced in the home can have devastating affects. Examples include: hate, intolerance, elitism, also, low self esteem, alienation from family, and sometimes death. Below find a link that shows the effects of people immersed in religious beliefs.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26469519

Man is master over woman, beware if you do not follow. FEAR! Hate those who are different, shun those who live different. These principles are found in most religions practised today. The effects of these principles can be found in the KKK, and gay bashing, suicides and murder. Again, many symptoms of child abuse do not present themselves until adulthood. Rigid religious beliefs instructing children to hate and fear, in my opinion is child abuse.

Suzanne
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Re: religion and child abuse

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Suzanne wrote: The doctrines in many religions if practiced and believed by children will continue to affect them as adults. The fear of God, the fear of not going to church, fear. Symptoms of child abuse oftentimes do not present themselves until adulthood.

I disagree with your above statement. I believe that rigid religious practices exposed to children and enforced in the home can have devastating affects. Examples include: hate, intolerance, elitism, also, low self esteem, alienation from family, and sometimes death. Below find a link that shows the effects of people immersed in religious beliefs.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26469519

Man is master over woman, beware if you do not follow. FEAR! Hate those who are different, shun those who live different. These principles are found in most religions practised today. The effects of these principles can be found in the KKK, and gay bashing, suicides and murder. Again, many symptoms of child abuse do not present themselves until adulthood. Rigid religious beliefs instructing children to hate and fear, in my opinion is child abuse.

Suzanne
I haven't read Hitchens' book yet but I'm familiar with Dawkins' argument which I assume is more or less the same. I do agree with DWILL that the term "child abuse" does not apply to the teaching of religious traditions. Parents will naturally rear their children in a manner consistent with their own beliefs. Yes, that may include teachings that foster intolerance, racism, and discrimination. But we cannot mandate what parents teach their children any more than we can mandate what people believe. We live in a free society. Only in extreme cases such as withholding necessary medical treatment should the government interfere in how a parents choose to raise their children.
Last edited by geo on Sun May 03, 2009 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks for your views, Suzanne. I did not say that no parents are guilty of abuse, of course; those who actually subject their children to forced indoctrination to disturbed beliefs are committing abuse. But what we have out there today, at least in Protestant Sunday schools, is in my estimate and from some experience, largely mild stuff. My kids who went to Sunday school were never told that they would go to Hell if they did bad things. It was the kinder, gentler religion that they got.
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religion and child abuse

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Hello DWILL:

I was raised Methodist, I went to Sunday school, and Bible camp in the summer. I suppose my words were harsh, but Catholic children do not go to Sunday school, they sit with the rest of the congregation, and boy, a lot of the words they hear are harsh. I didn't want to offend, so I did not separate different forms of Christrianity. I suppose in doing so I offended everyone.

I belive Hitchens when speaking of religions that are a form of child abuse he is reffering to those that have such strong beliefs, that if taken to heart by children and reinforced by parents can produce effects that are damaging. I feel teaching hate is intolerable, and this teaching can affect children as adults.

Suzanne
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Re: religion and child abuse

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Suzanne wrote:Hello DWILL:

I was raised Methodist, I went to Sunday school, and Bible camp in the summer. I suppose my words were harsh, but Catholic children do not go to Sunday school, they sit with the rest of the congregation, and boy, a lot of the words they hear are harsh. I didn't want to offend, so I did not separate different forms of Christrianity. I suppose in doing so I offended everyone.

I belive Hitchens when speaking of religions that are a form of child abuse he is reffering to those that have such strong beliefs, that if taken to heart by children and reinforced by parents can produce effects that are damaging. I feel teaching hate is intolerable, and this teaching can affect children as adults. Suzanne
Suzanne,
I don't think anyone took offense. I wondered about Catholic children, too. My impression was that they all go through something called catechism, which as I imagine it qualifies as indoctrination. Maybe it is not so heavy on the fear part, but I wouldn't actually know. I did, in the line of duty, go to a number of Catholic Saturday services. These were pretty innocuous, informal, with a praise band of guitatrs and singing. A lot of kids would come to these, and if anything, they were only bored. I think it's clear that the forms of religion have evolved along with what can only be called secularization. Few adults want to be told about Satan, for example, so naturally they don't want their kids to be, either. As a result, Satan is almost absent from preaching or instruction in any church I know about. It wasn't so long ago when I assume to leave Satan out of the picture would have been thought of as telling only half the story. There are some exceptions to the "religion lite" norm, I'm sure.
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Re: religion and child abuse

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Suzanne wrote:I was raised Methodist, I went to Sunday school, and Bible camp in the summer. I suppose my words were harsh, but Catholic children do not go to Sunday school, they sit with the rest of the congregation, and boy, a lot of the words they hear are harsh. I didn't want to offend, so I did not separate different forms of Christrianity. I suppose in doing so I offended everyone.

I belive Hitchens when speaking of religions that are a form of child abuse he is reffering to those that have such strong beliefs, that if taken to heart by children and reinforced by parents can produce effects that are damaging. I feel teaching hate is intolerable, and this teaching can affect children as adults.

Suzanne
I don't disagree that religious indoctrination causes much harm and can be especially damaging to children. In that sense, religion can be viewed in the same context of a cult, which uses the same kinds of brain-washing techniques. But the fact of the matter is that it's not religion itself which is damaging to young (and old) but the beliefs behind it. And like it or not, belief in spiritual entities is encoded into our genetic makeup. Humans gravitate towards supernatural beliefs, some religious and some not. A parent can cause untold psychological damage to a child with or without religion, which is why I feel it is not accurate to say religious indoctrination = child abuse. Religion itself is not the culprit. In fact, very many folks who are exposed to religion are perfectly normal and healthy. And I do acknowledge that Christianity in some respects has been a positive force through history, although as an atheist I hope that religion will fade and that people will gravitate away from supernatural and towards a naturalistic worldview. This will happen through attrition just as the idea of slavery is now morally repugnant. We as a society, of course, must continue to condemn extremity in all forms. But in my opinion saying religion is "child abuse" is not going to be very helpful to this ultimate goal.
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I agree with your reasoning above. Some religious practices certainly have been and are still child abuse, but we'd have to say the general statement religion=child abuse isn't accurate. I posted in another thread about the apparent consensus that participating in religion fosters good outcomes in children. I think this is something to be considered, too: that not only is religion not child abuse, but also that it has benefits for children. As I said in that thread, I have not evaluated the research. But I'm confident that the expert consensus exists and could find no research attempting to refute it. I'm sure we could speculate on reasons for the positive effect that are unrelated to religion, per se.
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religion and child abuse

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Geo wrote:
And like it or not, belief in spiritual entities is encoded into our genetic makeup.
I would be very interested in understanding this concept, you say it with such confidence. Spiritual practises, religious practises are cultural, culture is taught through mores and values. Religion is certainly not encoded into our gentic makeup. If this were true, there would be no discussion on atheism, it would not exist.

I agree, parents of course have the final say about how children are raised. And of course we live in a free society that gives us the freedom to choose the direction our lives will take. Members of the KKK are free to choose their beliefs, skin heads are also free to choose to reek havic on the lives of people who are different from them. I can only guess that you do not believe in these attitudes.

I still stand by my original statement. Most religions, globally teach hate and intollerance, and oppression. I have used this example once, and I will use it again. Ham, the son of Noah is acredited with populating the African ethnicity. In the Bible the decendants of Ham will be considered inferior to those created by Noah's other two sons whose decedents populate the rest of the world. These passage in the Bible has been used
numerous times to prove oppresion. Homosexuals are also chastised due to passages in the Bible.
If children are raised to believe in the Bible, these two issues will be held as truth into adulthood.

When I was 18, a ran into a friend of mine on a public transit bus. I sat with him, and he started crying. He told me that his gay partner had beaten him up and kicked him out of the apartment they were sharing. His parents would not accept him back into their home because he was gay. He had nowhere to go. He planned on spending the entire day on the bus.

When I was engaged to be married, married into a devout catholic family, I choose my best friend to be my maid of honor who happened to be black. My mother in law to be told me that if I insisted upon this choice she would order the family not to attend the wedding. We eloped.

Two stories from an average American woman who has seen and felt how the rigid doctrines of religion can affect lives. And the big one, Roe V Wade, whether I believe in the rulling is not important, what is important is the weight politians place on this rulling. The abortion issue is the corner stone of many campaigns, gay marriage, again, huge issue for politians. Why? Religion is ingrained so veserally in many portions of our United States we can't get away from these issues.

I do want to end by saying that both yourself and DWILL are able to think about the concept of religion. I truly believe the capacity for thinking and pondering upon this delicate subject, and your willingness to discuss is beyond many devout practisioners of certain religions.

Suzanne






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