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Trump Watch 
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Post Re: Trump Watch
As I said, it won't go far because the top gop senators have already said they will not approve it and I expect the majority of the senate republicans will toe that line. John Thune stated it would not be good for the country to keep dragging this thing out. What he and Blount and McConnell and Murkowski and Romney and Collins know is that this tactic is not designed to win but to prolong the agony and if Jan 20 arrives and there is no inauguration, no clear-cut leader and it all comes down to a House vote and the voice of the people has been completely buried and ignored will not go well for the GOP.

I think the kernel of what I said earlier still stands: without some new utterly compelling evidence of fraud, neither chamber will approve the objections.

But some articles are saying the House won't pass it but other articles say the House votes by state delegation and the majority of states win. IOW, it's not by individual membership but by state delegation. The republicans have 26 such delegations to the democrats' 22. So, in my book, the republicans win. But then articles start talking about how a nasty fight will now break out that involve redistricting, getting one vote to flip an entire delegation and little end-arounds established in the late 19th century that will allow one side or the other to blow the whole fucking up. It seems to me if the republicans who are the minority in the House get to control it because they have more state delegations (and this is mandated by the Constitution and can't be changed) then their vote would finish it--it's done, Trump is president. But apparently that's not the end of it. So what is the point of doing it?????? Why is this vote going to take place at all?????? What's it actually for???? If the final vote is not final why do we have it???? I don't get it. None of these articles can explain it. All they do is tell us what each side will likely do in various circumstance and there isn't any fucking end to it. There are NO RULES governing this process. There's legal loopholes of every type that each side will resort to. I became extremely angry and frustrated reading this bullshit because it became apparent that nobody really knows the fuck is going on. Our govt is a driverless car speeding down the fucking road. This should be a simple thing and yet nobody put any fucking rules in place which only guarantees a haphazard outcome if an outcome can ever come about.

I mean, shit, if this drags on long enough, we will have two concurrent presidents which means two countries. And this can drag on into the next election cycle. I am disgusted that our politicians and even our fucking founding fathers (yeah, I'm pissed at those assholes, too) didn't have enough fucking brains to institute a couple of simple fucking rules to keep this bullshit in order.

In some ways, I hope all this does happen. If we're this stupid then maybe this country should be allowed to rip itself apart. Maybe that is the best thing for us and the while fucking world.



Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:19 am
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Post Re: Trump Watch
McConnell has told his caucus not to challenge the results on Jan. 6 because it would force a "terrible vote." McConnell isn't doing it out of principle but only because it's ultimately a losing proposition. Let's face it, most Republicans aren't really interested in overthrowing the government. They have job security even under a Biden administration. And the vast majority of Republicans didn't balk at all under McConnell's suggestion. So I suspect that we will have a fairly normal transition to a Biden Administration.

Unless we are being paranoid, and then we wonder if McConnell is only trying to pull a fast one at the last minute.


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Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:32 am
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Post Re: Trump Watch
No, I don't think McConnell is up to anything. I have no doubt that Biden will be sworn in. I'm pissed off that this stupid ass vote is so needlessly complicated. Just get rid of the objection measure. Unless the tally read off by the VP doesn't match what the electors sent to Congress, no objections allowed. Problem solved. But, no, let's bullocks it up with stupid legal bullshit until no one understands it.



Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:03 am
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Post Re: Trump Watch
Disposal of the Electoral College would be the ultimate, surely the simplest, answer. Is that body not like a vestigial organ in our physical bodies? Like our appendix, can't we live fine--no, better--without it?

After the Jan. 6 gambit fails or doesn't materialize, the hope I have for Trump's dumping after he leaves office is that the ambitious Republicans will say he had his day and now it's their turn. Lesser of the evils, sure, but Trump has been the substance most toxic to public life in generations.



Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:21 am
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Post Re: Trump Watch
EC is in the Constitution. It's here to stay. Get used to it.

In some ways, we owe Trump. Only he would drag things out this far and hence showed us dangerous weak spots that have to get fixed. It's only a matter of time before someone sees how far Trump could have taken things and decides that he is really going to take them that far. This is a learning experience, America, now LEARN!!!



Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:34 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
Yes in some ways we got lucky with Trump. He showed us how an autocrat thinks and how he might approach any problem or threat to his hold on power. However Trump is mentally ill, requiring and demanding constant adoration, incapable of learning from others, with no empathy or concept of the worth of others, plus an astonishing level of avarice. Trump is also extremely lazy in certain areas and incompetent.

The Gop has a taste for that now and will look for even more of a Strong Man, someone who is sane, skilled at wielding power, sophisticated, competent, yet ravenous for total control. Think of someone like Bill Barr - not him exactly, but one who knows all about the legal system, how to clear out impediments to increasing power, and one who is charismatic enough that his base will cheer and form armed gangs that march through cities 100K strong as the Dictator seizes the military and shuts down the Senate just for starters. :x :shock: This is what is on the horizon, can we stop that train?



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Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:13 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
That's why I said Trump is a learning experience. If we don't fix the weak spots he revealed, someone else is going to come along and exploit those weak spots for everything he can get. So, can we stop that from happening? Yes. Will we? Not too sure about that. Americans are surprisingly asleep. I don't know just how much we learned from this. Voters were surprisingly ambivalent. This should have been a slam dunk blue wave but it fizzled miserably. I'm very worried.



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Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:10 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
It’s interesting because 75 million people think that they were so close, oh so close to putting an end to American bullshit. One of the more popular ball cap sported in my neck of the woods proclaimed [trump 2020 “no bullshit”].

It was never clear to me exactly what that meant. I was able to gather a sense though.

For PSfB supporters it means things like; “build a wall”, first up.. the U.S. Mexico border.. if needs be.. put one along the U.S. Canadian border as well, “no bullshit” could mean walls between states, regions, cities.. communities, building walls are necessary for survival in the MAGA mind.

Continuing on with “no bullshit”..It could mean..”from my cold dead hands, will you pry this gun”.(don’t know whom I’m quoting, other than just some meme). The second amendment seems ludicrously important to the PSfB supporter, (conservatives in general seem erotically attached to firearms). For many gun owners I think there is this fantasy of keeping government at bay, but it doesn’t stop there. For these “no bullshit” gun owners there is the ultimate.. Vigilantism.. The idea that ‘if’ something needs to be taken out.. they have the ultimate authority, (because they own guns and they would not be shy about using them) .

“No bullshit” for the army of PSfB voters can also mean.. ‘over taxation’. In their collective minds they are fighting for me! They are stopping a corrupt and evil bureaucracy that is hell-bent on possessing not only every dollar in my pocket but dictating my every action. The PSfB voters believe that they are the last bulwark to freedom. Theirs is a delusion that is going to be a challenge to dissipate. Libertarianism doesn’t register in their minds nor does Social Darwinism but the principles remain the same.. Government is the enemy because governments levy taxes and taxes are bad.

Resolving micro and macro conflicts.. for the PSfB voter boils down to who is the quickest to draw of the gun.. “no bullshit” just kill the person or people who make you feel insecure. “Leave a few of them hanging around or just leave a few laying around bleeding and the ‘bullshit’ will stop” these are the words I hear weekly. The PSfB voters know that there representatives can’t utter the words but the can and will act on the words in ways that get the point across.

Dinner bells ringing! :)



Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:21 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
Taylor wrote:
“Leave a few of them hanging around or just leave a few laying around bleeding and the ‘bullshit’ will stop” these are the words I hear weekly.

Holy crap weekly? Tell them to start shooting or they are just BSing! :ttongue:



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Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:52 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
LanDroid wrote:
Taylor wrote:
“Leave a few of them hanging around or just leave a few laying around bleeding and the ‘bullshit’ will stop” these are the words I hear weekly.

Holy crap weekly? Tell them to start shooting or they are just BSing! :ttongue:


The weekly calls for indiscriminate lynchings have faded, the siren song nowadays is stolen elections.

At the height of the BLM marches is the time frame of the threats of violence and yes,I did challenge those calling for said violence to go to the places of protest and do their deeds. But first I told them to go through me, I did in fact tell them they were cowards for bragging about their guns, I told them they had small minds and that they were little more than functional illiterates.

Mostly I’m dealing with racists, sneaky ones at that.



Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:55 am
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Post Re: Trump Watch
LanDroid wrote:
The Gop has a taste for that now and will look for even more of a Strong Man, someone who is sane, skilled at wielding power, sophisticated, competent, yet ravenous for total control. Think of someone like Bill Barr - not him exactly, but one who knows all about the legal system, how to clear out impediments to increasing power, and one who is charismatic enough that his base will cheer and form armed gangs that march through cities 100K strong as the Dictator seizes the military and shuts down the Senate just for starters. This is what is on the horizon, can we stop that train?
I think the GOP strongman is a real threat. But the party leadership and the corporate paymasters have no taste for it. Most of the GOP leaders read the tea leaves as a message that their ideological war against expanded government, for example Medicare for All, is a winning political position. Corporations just want pliable officials who will "stay bought."

So who has a taste for it? Social conservatives who see the expansion of civil rights to women and minorities as a dangerous erosion of civil strength. I do think they would follow a caudillo who was more skillful at divisive rhetoric without the personalist obsessions, who would use blackmail and covert threats to enforce party discipline, who would gladly promote Russian disinformation to hobble his opponents (you can bet big money it would be a "him").

But the institutional strength in the free press, the armed forces who truly understand the need for civilian control, and the professionalism of the courts present a formidable obstacle to the sort of takeover you envision. And the political leadership is not really interested in being cowed. They caved to the threat of being primaried, except a few like Romney who have a strong enough base outside of the QAnon hall of mirrors, but that is not the same as looking forward to years of terror that the purges might come for them next, followed by the end of electoral accountability. Hell, even Murdoch's press stood up for democracy when push came to shove.

I would worry more about a continual slide toward one-party democracy, along the lines of what Poland and Hungary have gone through.



Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:01 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
"If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
—David Frum

I believe that quote is from 2016, a prescient observation that explains much of what is going on.

Harry Marks wrote:
I would worry more about a continual slide toward one-party democracy, along the lines of what Poland and Hungary have gone through.

Republicans would love that, along the lines of Democratic control for several decades starting with FDR. Every time the GOP wins you hear in the background something like "Forty more years!" But they can't make that happen, hence the gerrymandering at the nano-level, voter suppression, and now talk of secession, civil war, and martial law. I agree there are guardrails against most of this, the independent courts for one. But many of those protections have diminished in the last 4 years, especially the party leadership. I doubt they could withstand The Beast - one who is elected, trashes democratic institutions, and echoes President Jackson in saying "The courts have ruled, now let them enforce it against my armed gangs." Sorry, I know this seems outrageous, but I feel that somewhere The Beast has awakened, is paying attention, and is planning. :x

On edit: Re-reading this, I must be losing it. 1/20/2021 is coming too late. :P



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Post Re: Trump Watch
Quote:
Trump has told people recently that Pence isn't doing enough to fight for him as his presidency ends, and has recently taken an interest in Pence's traditional role during the certification. As President of the Senate, Pence presides over the proceedings. Sources say Trump in recent days has brought the matter up to the vice president and has been "confused" as to why Pence can't overturn the results of the election on January 6.

...Brooks told CNN on Monday night that they would seek to challenge the election in at least six battleground states, saying he needs to coordinate "as many as 72" five-minute speeches that GOP lawmakers would make that day. "That's a significant task," he said.

The effort is doomed to fail but would create a spectacle that Senate GOP leaders want to avoid. And if a House member and a senator object to six states' results, it would lead to at least 12 hours of debate, in addition to the time for casting votes on each of the motions, potentially prolonging the fight until the next day.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/24/politics ... index.html

Aaaand awaaaay weeee gooooo...



Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:35 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
DB Roy wrote:
Trump is a learning experience. If we don't fix the weak spots he revealed, someone else is going to come along and exploit those weak spots.

The refusal to concede is part of a deliberate strategy to signal to the fascist base that empire and democracy are no longer compatible. Not enough people can be conned into voting against their interests.

Cheating by stopping poor people from voting is no longer enough. The drumbeat emerging from the refusal to concede is the testing of the waters for how willing the American people are to allow military dictatorship.

An interesting essay on related themes is Wotan by Carl Jung, written in 1936 as a reflection on the irrational dangers of Nazism.
Carl Jung wrote:
When we look back to the time before 1914, we find ourselves living in a world of events which would have been inconceivable before the war. We were even beginning to regard war between civilized nations as a fable, thinking that such an absurdity would become less and less possible on our rational, internationally organized world. And what came after the war was a veritable witches' sabbath. Everywhere fantastic revolutions, violent alterations of the map, reversions in politics to medieval or even antique prototypes, totalitarian states that engulf their neighbours and outdo all previous theocracies in their absolutist claims, persecutions of Christians and Jews, wholesale political murder, and finally we have witnessed a light-hearted piratical raid on a peaceful, half-civilized people [the Italian invasion of Ethiopia].


The last century showed that sudden collapse of rational expectations is far easier than people like to imagine. Along came Hitler, with his deeply irrational call to restore the violent heritage of berserk frenzy. These unconscious psychological tendencies sit close to the surface, repressed only by a thin veneer of civilization that can easily be split asunder by an astute call to emotional urges. Therefore Jung writes that "the psychologist cannot avoid coming to grips with contemporary history, even as his very soul shrinks from the political uproar, the lying propaganda, and the jarring speeches of the demagogues."

What Jung calls a "rustling in the primeval forest of the unconsciousness" produces "a state of being seized or possessed." Only a "mind that is still childish thinks of the gods as metaphysical entities existing in their own right, or else regards them as playful or superstitious inventions." The reality is that Gods like Wotan symbolise the deep trends in human psychology, psychic forces emerging from unconscious depths.

The anger that has seized Trump's voters is entirely such an unconscious psychic force, searching about for a powerful emotional symbol just as German fury did in the 1930s: "The impressive thing about the German phenomenon is that one man, who is obviously "possessed," has infected a whole nation to such an extent that everything is set in motion and has started rolling on its course towards perdition... soon after Hitler seized power a cartoon appeared in PUNCH of a raving berserker tearing himself free from his bonds. A hurricane has broken loose in Germany while we still believe it is fine weather."

Jung continues, describing political use of mythology as "a bridge between the dark forces of life and the shining world of historical ideas....the man of today, when confronted with a living and unfathomable tribal god such as he has never experienced before, [is] sucked like dry leaves into the roaring whirlwind."


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Post Re: Trump Watch
A possible simple reason for people's willingness to chuck democracy in favor of a "strong" leader is belief that all politicians are corrupt. I hear this from a few people on both sides. When they make such statements, they believe they're sounding impartial. The result is that they become willing to countenance authoritarianism-- because democracy can't work with all of the corruption, so at least the strongman can get things done. Currently the authoritarian threat is from the right, but nothing says leftist authoritarianism couldn't appear sometime.

The belief that all are corrupt is lazy and demonstrably false. But it has a strong appeal right now. In fact, if we tried to define what the swamp represents to Trump followers, elected officials would be included in its creatures.



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