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Trump Watch 
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Post Re: Trump Watch
If the House was still controlled by Republicans, how would we assess the possibility of the coup succeeding? I wouldn't bet against that happening in that case. It's sobering to consider how frail our democracy seems to have become. When checks to power fall, democracy becomes impossible. The Democrats will win this particular battle, but what does it portend that things once inconceivable have now been openly embraced? It's not likely that normal will be restored.



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Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:01 am
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Post Re: Trump Watch
If you want to torture yourself with what ifs, go ahead.



Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:21 am
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Post Re: Trump Watch
DB Roy wrote:
If you want to torture yourself with what ifs, go ahead.

No, it's just that I think we need to brace for continued Trumpism after Trump exits.



Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:12 pm
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Post Re: Trump Watch
DWill wrote:
It's sobering to consider how frail our democracy seems to have become. When checks to power fall, democracy becomes impossible. The Democrats will win this particular battle, but what does it portend that things once inconceivable have now been openly embraced? It's not likely that normal will be restored.

Generalissimo Donald Pinochet will spend the next four years trying to trumpet military support for an armed overthrow of the Biden Administration by his Presidency In Exile, somewhat on the model of the CIA backed coup d'etat in Chile in 1973.

Failing that, a new confederacy will seek to mobilise secession of the red states, with possible reintroduction of slavery (joke).

I interpret US history on the model of the ancient Roman transition from republic to empire, where the economic interests of the supremely powerful required removal of the limited consultative constraints exercised by the senate. But such changes take a long time. Rome's Republican heyday was the Punic Wars, and it took 150 years from the defeat of Hannibal to Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon. On that time scale, looking at the WW2 greatest generation as America's republican high point, we are now at the equivalent of 130 BC, and full American Empire would not be expected until the end of this century, although considerable internal strife can be expected first.

A difference from Roman republican times is that the USA has external constraints. So Trump's nativist vision of xenophobic nationalism encounters dialogue with other great powers with competing interests, as well of course as the remarkable speed and scope of modern communications.

The slide to dictatorial military empire is what the Trump phenomenon would presage in the obsolete world Trump imagines. Global connection through technology means such a world does not exist except in delusional fantasy. The forces of popular inclusion are likely to outweigh those of autocratic imperialism, but it could be a close run thing, in view of the power of money, arms and emotion to convince people of the truth of big lies, as seen in the current mad election conspiracy theory.

The scale of the US military is the biggest danger to American and world politics, with its ridiculous military expenditure greater than the next ten biggest spenders combined. If the military finds its budget is threatened by democracy, then democracy could go out the window.


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Post Re: Trump Watch
DB Roy wrote:
It CAN'T work! Do you understand why it can't work? If Brooks should find a senator to stand up with him (and I doubt that will happen), both chambers split up and discuss the merits of the objection. They kick it around for two hours and--ready or not--they vote on it. The vote MUST pass both chambers.

Yes, thank you! I'm just a bit paranoid these days.

I don't know why, but I'm always trying to figure out Trump's motivations. Trump's legal team has filed numerous lawsuits, trying to overturn the election. But was this Trump's actual goal or is he merely posturing for his base. Probably a little of both.

Also, as this NYTimes article points out, Trump's protests of a "rigged election" keeps the money flowing in.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/30/us/p ... tions.html


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Post Re: Trump Watch
Geo, I read yesterday that Trump's take is now up to 207.5 million. Apparently most of it is unrestricted, belonging to his new PAC, Save America (what delicious irony). I don't know if he truly could use the money to pay off personal debts. It would be my fervent hope that he could not do so legally. I hate to say something like this: how can people be so stupid.



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Post Re: Trump Watch
geo wrote:
DB Roy wrote:
It CAN'T work! Do you understand why it can't work? If Brooks should find a senator to stand up with him (and I doubt that will happen), both chambers split up and discuss the merits of the objection. They kick it around for two hours and--ready or not--they vote on it. The vote MUST pass both chambers.

Yes, thank you! I'm just a bit paranoid these days.

I don't know why, but I'm always trying to figure out Trump's motivations. Trump's legal team has filed numerous lawsuits, trying to overturn the election. But was this Trump's actual goal or is he merely posturing for his base. Probably a little of both.

Also, as this NYTimes article points out, Trump's protests of a "rigged election" keeps the money flowing in.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/30/us/p ... tions.html


That's the motivation. Like any other con man, Trump's motivation is, "How can I make money off this?"



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Post Re: Trump Watch
DWill wrote:
Geo, I read yesterday that Trump's take is now up to 207.5 million. Apparently most of it is unrestricted, belonging to his new PAC, Save America (what delicious irony). I don't know if he truly could use the money to pay off personal debts. It would be my fervent hope that he could not do so legally. I hate to say something like this: how can people be so stupid.


Even worse, if Trump told these donors that he intends to use the money to pay off his own personal debts, they'd still fork it over and ask if he needs more. Because if they refused to give him money on that count, they would have to admit we were right about him and that just kills them!! They would literally rather die than admit we were right. A nurse in an interview said that one man they treated for covid was dying and they told him that they had done all they could. He accepted that but what he refused to accept was that he had covid. He insisted he was dying of lung cancer because covid is an obvious hoax. He said if they offered him a covid cure, he wouldn't take it because he knows he's dying of lung cancer. That's how stubborn, arrogant and stupid these people are. They would literally rather die than admit we are right.



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Post Re: Trump Watch
^Related to those delusions, I've seen videos of people who voted for Trump because he would destroy Obamacare even though they had Obamacare insurance. They thought since they were "good people" he would not take that insurance away from them, only the bad folks who did not deserve it. Another said he would rather die of liver cancer than get Obamacare to save his life because that money might go towards undeserving bums. Without understanding it, both support the American Caste System.



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Post Re: Trump Watch
LanDroid wrote:
Another said he would rather die of liver cancer than get Obamacare to save his life because that money might go towards undeserving bums. Without understanding it, both support the American Caste System.

Caste is about the principle of inequality, the idea that 'superior' people are intrinsically worth more and are personally better than the 'inferior', based on social position rather than personal merit.

For Trump, the caste-based attitude includes the idea that Republican votes should be worth more than Democrat votes, because Republicans are a superior caste. That is why he is not conceding the election to Biden.


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Post Re: Trump Watch
Robert Tulip wrote:
LanDroid wrote:
Another said he would rather die of liver cancer than get Obamacare to save his life because that money might go towards undeserving bums. Without understanding it, both support the American Caste System.

Caste is about the principle of inequality, the idea that 'superior' people are intrinsically worth more and are personally better than the 'inferior', based on social position rather than personal merit.

For Trump, the caste-based attitude includes the idea that Republican votes should be worth more than Democrat votes, because Republicans are a superior caste. That is why he is not conceding the election to Biden.

Maybe Isabel Wilkerson's recent book, Caste, should be a Booktalk selection. The book's been very widely praised for resetting the discussion race through the lens of caste. According to the NY Times reviewer, Wilkerson helps us solve a puzzle of 2016 and 2020: why would white working-class Americans vote against their own economic interests? But why wouldn't they, if more important to them is preserving their rung on the ladder of the social order? They become willing to suffer economic pain for a greater cause. I wonder if the dynamic is similar to what applied in the pre-war South, where most confederates were poor and non slave-holding. Yet they supported the oligarchy pushing for secession out of determination to keep their caste position one step up from black slaves.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/book ... tents.html



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Post Re: Trump Watch
DB Roy wrote:
It CAN'T work! Do you understand why it can't work?

Back to the January 6 vote in a joint session of Congress and the Senate. I don't want to get repetitive but just to clarify, I am not claiming GOP challenges to state votes will "work" as in overturning the election. But injecting chaos and turning a brief ceremonial act into several days of mayhem will lead to further deterioration.

Here's one sign this might not happen: several days ago McConnell tried to tamp down any senatorial enthusiasm for supporting house objections. This would avoid the problem if no senators join in the fun.

Unfortunately there's another large sign today that this will happen.
Quote:
President Donald Trump is calling for "wild" protests to occur in the nation's capital on January 6, the final date on which he and his most hard-line Republican allies desperately hope to overturn President-elect Joe Biden's victory. Trump, who twice campaigned on being the "law and order" candidate, is hoping to create chaos in Washington two weeks before Inauguration Day. As he continues to baselessly claim that it's "statistically impossible" he lost, Trump Saturday urged his supporters to interrupt what is typically an innocuous joint session of Congress on January 6 in which they will count Biden's 306 to 232 win among state electoral votes.

12/19/20
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-encourag ... nt-1556153

I fear at least one Senator will join in the objections. They will feel excruciating pressure to do so, or put another way he or she simply cannot NOT do it!

Again, I hope DB Roy is correct and this $#1@ is finally, utterly, totally, and completely done on 1/6/2021 !



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Post Re: Trump Watch
LanDroid wrote:
^Related to those delusions, I've seen videos of people who voted for Trump because he would destroy Obamacare even though they had Obamacare insurance. They thought since they were "good people" he would not take that insurance away from them, only the bad folks who did not deserve it. Another said he would rather die of liver cancer than get Obamacare to save his life because that money might go towards undeserving bums. Without understanding it, both support the American Caste System.


I saw a woman on tv angrily blurt out, "Government better keep their filthy hands off my medicare!" I was like errrrrrr...

Then there's Trump himself stating that the rigging of the election went up to the highest levels of govt. Uhhh...that's you, buddy.



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Post Re: Trump Watch
After reviewing how this Jan 6 vote is supposed to work, I admit defeat. I don't understand how it works. My earlier explanations are hereby null and void. The way it is explained, the Republicans have already won this thing and Trump will be declared the winner. But if that were the case, why would McConnell, Thune, Blount and all the big gop senators tell the senate not to stand with Mo Brooks? That the Senate will not vote to support any objection? From what it seems, the Republicans would win. So, clearly, I don't get any of this. The deeper I get into it, the less it makes sense. When you look at it, it seems the Republicans have this in the bag and Trump will win. So why is McConnell NOT interested in pursuing it? I don't get it. I thought the rules were cut and dry but the truth is that even many in congress are not sure what the rules are. If they don't know, how would I know? How would anybody? The way it looks, the senate will not pass any objections because the top gop senators have basically said so. That's all any of us can go on. Arguing procedure is pointless. It's so complicated with house delegations and fights for districts and a single vote flipping a delegation that no one can predict how that would work. Eventually, it will go to SCOTUS but if they punt it, it comes down to a House vote where it seems Republicans have the advantage except that, according to what I've read, NOW the democrats have the advantage.. I don't get it. All I know is Pelosi is gearing up for the fight and she seems to know what has to be done. I fully expect Biden to persevere but I was totally wrong on how that will happen because the procedures are not clear-cut. They are a clusterfuck.



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Post Re: Trump Watch
Wow you are more paranoid than I am now. Here's the big picture as I see it. Yes there will be a new Congress starting Jan 3. Although the Dem lead slipped in the House, they will have narrow control. On the Senate side, that runoff election of two senators in Georgia starts Jan 5, one day before the joint review of electoral votes. Even if the Gop wins both elections I doubt they can be seated in one day, so they could be down those two votes in the Senate. So bottom line this effort will fail to overturn because both sides of the joint session must approve tossing out electoral votes.

But injecting chaos and stretching it out over several days will wreak havoc. Since Scotus rejected that Texas lawsuit far right wingers have been saying "Well the vote was corrupt and Scotus didn't help, so we are left with secession, civil war, and martial law." That could accelerate if Jan 6 is a debacle.



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