connected: ezChat version 0.54
Tim OConnor joined
Chris OConnor: Hey
Chris OConnor: Tara - meet my older brother,
tarav: nice t o meet ya!
Tim OConnor: Hello. I thought author chats were
in the other chat client.
Chris OConnor: Tara - you get that message about
the poll? I haven't responded yet to your longer
tarav: got it!
tarav: i will fix t hat
Chris OConnor: Tim - I'm deleting that chat room
- it expires on the 16th anyway. Costs $75 per
year and we just don't need it
Chris OConnor: The other chat room complicates
Chris OConnor: Hey Booper
tarav: hey Booper
Tim OConnor: Ok. I will be multitasking here
... lots going on.
Chris OConnor: I think Ann and I will be on the
phone for this chat session, so that might makes
things go smoother than the Michael Shermer chat
tarav: i think the
booper54: how long do they usually last?
Chris OConnor: Tim - cool
Chris OConnor: Hey Nick
misterpessimistic: hey there all!
tarav: i think the Shermer chat was a one time
misterpessimistic: stop talking about me now
Chris OConnor: Booper - depends on what she wants.
Usually 1 - 2 hours, but 1 is acceptable
tarav: hey nick!
Chris OConnor: Tara - me too
tarav: nick- i missed you!
misterpessimistic: only 3 hours went by
tarav: only 3?!
misterpessimistic: ok 4
Chris OConnor: Did you guys think up any interesting
questions for Ann?
booper54: so what is Ann Druyans screen name
going to be?...
misterpessimistic: did anyone hear about the
false alarm from SETI
Chris OConnor: Don't forget she is responsible
for the upcoming launch of the Solar Sail
Chris OConnor: No, tell us Nick
tarav: Chris- I have a few things in mind
booper54: false alarm?
Chris OConnor: She will be Ann Druyan as a screen
Chris OConnor: Tara - cool
misterpessimistic: it was a reporters fault
Chris OConnor: Nick - is this going to be a joke?
Chris OConnor: Ahh
misterpessimistic: they mentioned that they had
some abnormal radio signals
misterpessimistic: no Chris
misterpessimistic: Google for SETI
misterpessimistic: only about a minute long
Chris OConnor: Ahh
misterpessimistic: and they said it was interesting
and that they were not ruling anything out
misterpessimistic: and the report took liberties
misterpessimistic: I was SO excited earlier today!
Chris OConnor: The last Ch. in Pale Blue Dot
talks about radio signals probably not getting
back to us for 300 years
Chris OConnor: Nick - I bet
Chris OConnor: Nick - you wanted to meet your
relatives I bet
Chris OConnor: aliens
Chris OConnor: haha
misterpessimistic: I am sick of your humans
Chris OConnor: I know...me too
booper54: how would I save this chat session?
booper54: after we're done
Chris OConnor: Excellent question. This is how.
You have to click on the "Use Text Mode"
link at the very top
Chris OConnor: then copy and paste the text into
MS Word, or some word processor
booper54: ooh ok
Chris OConnor: I will keep a transcript, but
I could use some help
Chris OConnor: Nick, Tara - can you help? I am
worried about losing this transcript
misterpessimistic: I will try
misterpessimistic: just cut and paste every so
James Totalitarian joined
Chris OConnor: If you could have a word processor
up...or Notepad even...and periodically copy and
paste the transcript I would really appreciate
tarav: Chris- I will try too
misterpessimistic: that's the SETI link
Chris OConnor: Hey James - welcome to BookTalk
;) I have seen you on the site lately
Glory Matthews joined
misterpessimistic: hey James!
James Totalitarian: aye
Chris OConnor: Glory - was that you that just
accidentally called me?
tarav: Chris- but don't count on me
James Totalitarian: it's a good site
misterpessimistic: glad you like it!
Chris OConnor: Glory - and had country music
playing in the background?
Chris OConnor: James - thanks!
misterpessimistic: your contributions are excellent
James Totalitarian: I got bored or arguing with
people who just threw insults in response to reasoned
misterpessimistic: Me too James
Glory Matthews: Chris, nope. I haven't been on
the phone. Must have been another girl.
Chris OConnor: James - that does get frustrating
James Totalitarian: if someone calls me a Communist
misterpessimistic: I came from a political board
Chris OConnor: Glory - yes, one of my numerous
Chris OConnor: lol
James Totalitarian: me too
misterpessimistic: All my republican friends
call me a commie
Glory Matthews: Chris, naturally
Chris OConnor: James - hah I understand
James Totalitarian: my girlfriend's dad calls
me a pinko liberal commie
James Totalitarian: but when he does it it's
misterpessimistic: James: Which site
Chris OConnor: You guys...keep in mind we will
keep a transcript of this so nothing nutty
Chris OConnor: Lemme call Ann
James Totalitarian: World Politics
tarav: Chris- I said don't count on me because
I've been having computer problems
misterpessimistic: I was on E-The People
Tim OConnor: Define nutty
misterpessimistic: yeah Chris....you know me!
Chris OConnor: Hey Sun
James Totalitarian: I have to admit to not really
knowing the authors work that much
James Totalitarian: but I googled an read up
James Totalitarian: definitely interesting
#Ann Druyan joined
Chris OConnor: Hello Ann!
tarav: Welcome Ann!
Chris OConnor: Ann - I just called your office
number and left a message.
James Totalitarian: Hello!
Katala Au joined
#Ann Druyan: Hi, Chris.
Good to be with you.
misterpessimistic: Hey Nicole
Chris OConnor: Yes, thank you so much for spending
some time with us Ann.
misterpessimistic: Hi Ann!
tarav: hey Nicole- Ann just joined!
Katala Au: Morning :) Hi Ann :)
Glory Matthews: Hi Ann!
Tim OConnor: It is an honor to have you with
us tonight, Ms. Druyan.
#Ann Druyan: Hi, everyone!
Chris OConnor: Everyone can change their font
colors so that it is easier to see the text if
you like. You do NOT need to.
#Ann Druyan: The honor
Chris OConnor: People will keep filtering in,
but that's ok.
misterpessimistic: Hi Kostya
#Ann Druyan: I've actually
never done this before.
Chris OConnor: Ann - to get the ball rolling
I would like to tell you that I'm really excited
about the Solar Sail project and have posted the
press release on BookTalk
Chris OConnor: Ann - well, you're doing an excellent
Tim OConnor: We were just discussing the "false
alarm" in the media concerning the signal
discovery for SETI. Lots of us disappointed
Chris OConnor: Ann - is there an actual date
for the launch yet?
#Ann Druyan: Thanks.
And thanks for the opening re: Cosmos 1, our gorgeous
solar sailing spacecraft.
misterpessimistic: Yeah! I was all aghast today!
#Ann Druyan: We will
be announcing an actual launch date very shortly.
misterpessimistic: Ann: It must be exhilarating!
Meme Wars joined
Chris OConnor: Nice crowd tonight
#Ann Druyan: Re; The
SETI false alarm--How can we be disappointed in
the same week we've discovered new extra-solar
planets that are somewhat earth-like?
#LanDroid: Sorry, latecomer - you'll be announcing
a launch date for what?
ginof: greetings and sorry for being late. Can
you talk about yourself and Dr. Sagan as dreamers
and the roll that dreamers play in science?
misterpessimistic: I posted about the planets....very
Tim OConnor: Ann - you are right ... that is
very big news
misterpessimistic: But finding a sign of life
was great...even though it wasn't
#Ann Druyan: For Cosmos
1- our solar sail spacecraft to be launched from
a Russian submarine into Earth orbit.
Tim OConnor: It was just a few months ago we
were talking about only finding huge gas giants
with very fast near star orbits and talking about
how this may mean earth-like planets are very
Meme Wars: I haven't heard the news. I do get
the Planetary Report from the Planetary Society
- started by Carl Sagan?
Chris OConnor: I'm hopeful of life being discovered
on Mars or on a moon within our solar system
#Ann Druyan: I'd love
to talk about Carl's role. It's easy to forget
how much criticism he withstood for being so daring
in his interests and so speculative about intriguing
misterpessimistic: That's what made him a great
person and a superlative mind
Chris OConnor: An amazing person that touched
so many lives..
#Ann Druyan: Now, those
very subjects are mainstream science. I'm hugely
proud of Carl's guts and his vision.
misterpessimistic: Here Here!
Meme Wars: Is this the Russian's second attempt?
Have they discovered what went wrong with the
first launch of Cosmos 1?
Chris OConnor: The last Ch. of Pale Blue Dot
hit on so many different scenarios, opportunities
tarav: Ann- Sagan discussed the possibility of
terraforming. He asked, "Can we, who have
made such a mess of this world, be trusted with
others?". What do you think? Can we be trusted?
#Ann Druyan: There actually
was no first launch-only a sub-orbital test flight
with a third stage separation failure of the launch
#Ann Druyan: Make that
Tim OConnor: Carl was a huge inspiration for
me when I was younger ... My first "science"
book ... was Murmurs of Earth
misterpessimistic: I for one trust humans with
Chris OConnor: My brother, Tim O'Connor, is the
one that turned me on to Carl Sagan long ago.
Tim OConnor: No problem
#Ann Druyan: Dear Tarav-
I just don't know at this point. 5 minutes watching
the Republican Convention is enough to make you
Meme Wars: My run up of favorite authors were
Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov, and Carl Sagan.
tarav: It sure is!!
misterpessimistic: Asimov was a genius
Meme Wars: I now add Richard Dawkins.
Chris OConnor: Here is what I can't help but
wonder. Should we care so much about preserving
other worlds when there is almost an infinite
number of them? And if life doesn't already exist
on them, what are we really harming by terraforming
Tim OConnor: Well, maybe we shouldn't terraform
the first couple we find?
Meme Wars: So how were they able to discover
small Earth like worlds so far away?
misterpessimistic: Should we use dead worlds
#LanDroid: We're still finding new forms of life
on Earth - extremeophiles and such. How will we
know an entire planet is sterile?
Meme Wars: Are they earth-like, is there signs
of living chemistry?
Tiarella: Asteroids for resources!
Chris OConnor: The final Ch. of Pale Blue Dot
summed up my greatest fear. Currently, all of
our "eggs are in one basket"
Katala Au left
Chris OConnor: We find other planets by seeing
their effect on their stars
ginof: it seems that our eggs will remain there
for quite awhile
Meme Wars: That's true, Chris.
misterpessimistic: Chris: It will be a while
until we have the tech to change that....hopefully
it will not be too late
Katala Au joined
Meme Wars: That is why we should get settlements
in the langrine points of lunar orbit, on the
surface of the moon, and on mars.
#Ann Druyan: Chris:
I think we must proceed with the utmost humility
in the face of our historical errors and crimes.
James Totalitarian: Ann -- You have said that
you are see science as source of wonder, rather
than a destroyer of it. I just wondered if you
knew that there's a lot more science in poetry
of late -- poetry being the traditional home of
the wondrous and the beautiful...
Meme Wars: And we should have an aggressive program
to detect earth killer asteroids in time to give
them a gentle nudge to miss Earth.
Chris OConnor: Ann - I see. And probably the
right approach. We have a history of destruction.
#Ann Druyan: Meme Wars-That
of course is a theme in PBD
Chris OConnor: Meme - I agree! One could destroy
all life on our planet
Chris OConnor: Which is what I mean by having
all our eggs in one basket.
tarav: While reading about Mars, I couldn't help
but wonder if the changes on Mars weren't due
to ozone depletion as a result of life on Mars
making the same mistakes we are making now.
Meme Wars: We should also continue the Earth
II experiments in a sealed glass dome until the
human occupants can survive without help.
James Totalitarian: sorry that was a tangent
-- I had the question prepared
misterpessimistic: With politics the way they
are...money will always be scarce for asteroid
Chris OConnor: Ann - do you have any projects
other than the Solar Sail that are in the works,
or at least on your "to do" list pertaining
to astronomy or the SETI?
tarav: Meme- I saw Biosphere II in Arizona
Chris OConnor: James - that's ok!
Meme Wars: What is PBD?
Tiarella: Pale Blue Dot
#LanDroid: If you could pair asteroid defense
with missile defense we'd have it in a jiffy!
misterpessimistic: YES Lan...so long as it has
a military value, anything can get done!
misterpessimistic: sad really
James Totalitarian: and they'd probably call
it 'asteroid wars'
Tiarella: So who among us is ready to run for
office, pledging to devote resources to putting
a human colony on the moon or elsewhere?
tarav: Meme- Sagan discusses Biosphere II and
the need for improved versions of it
Meme Wars: That is what I meant to say, Biosphere
misterpessimistic: Tia: I will
tarav: Meme- I agree, more research is needed
Meme Wars: OK, Tiarella. Thank you.
Chris OConnor: Oh, I have to say this. In PBD
there is a picture of an "asteroidal habitat"
on pg 378 that seems like the ultimate solution
to creating a vehicle for deep space exploration
Meme Wars: LanDroid, using gentle nudge through
linear motor accelerators on asteroid using its
own material would be the most successful.
#Ann Druyan: You know
Jules Verne had that same fantasy about 150 years
ginof: it is amazing how ideas repeat themselves
misterpessimistic: It is amazing how one can
see so far into the future
#Ann Druyan: The older
I get the more I feel that in music, fashion,
Chris OConnor: Ann - using an asteroid?
#LanDroid: Yes, I think Carl mentioned the fact
that moving asteroids out of a harmful orbit means
they could also be used as weapons, moved into
orbit and towards a specific impact zone.
#Ann Druyan: Some can.
Meme Wars: Whom ever runs on that political platform
will not get elected. We humans have become way
too short sighted for any grand visions.
misterpessimistic: Meme: True
#Ann Druyan: Actually
it was a comet.
Chris OConnor: Ahh
Meme Wars: It is a race to consume what resources
James Totalitarian: I suppose it is because society
works in patterns; mathematics to a degree
#LanDroid: Pres. Bush advocated going to Mars.
For about 10 minutes or so...
misterpessimistic: The anti-intellectualism is
meant to keep the masses ignorant, IMHO
misterpessimistic: so we can be duped
ginof: Mr. p. don't get me started on Harris!
Chris OConnor: Gino - not in this chat though
misterpessimistic: Gino...we can save that for
#Ann Druyan: Exactly.
One speech expressing a vague fantasy-but so little
respect for science evinced in anything they do.
misterpessimistic: it irritates me to no end
the disregard for real science this president
Tiarella: Ann, do you know any politicians -
or likely ones - interested in using their positions
to encourage more scientific research & space
misterpessimistic: it makes me very ill
James Totalitarian: do you think that perhaps
the short-sightedness is in part a side-effect
of the democratic process, as well as of society
Meme Wars: Ann, what did you mean by "The
older I get the more I feel that in music, fashion,
James Totalitarian: A government that will only
be in power for a short period is likely to only
think about that period?
Meme Wars: Yes, steer the comet into Mars to
get instant water.
misterpessimistic: Representative Waxman has
a site dedicated to exposing the scientific subjugation
of this administration
#Ann Druyan: Sadly,
Al Gore was one. And you know what happened to
him. But, Kerry is at least curious and respectful
of science and Ms. Heinz-Kerry was very devoted
Tiarella: I'll have to look that up, mp - but
it's not quite what I meant.
misterpessimistic: hey...every little bit helps
tarav: Ann do you think that as Sagan said, "Earth
is about to settle into some rock-stable democratic
#Ann Druyan: Henry Waxman
has been very good on this issue.
misterpessimistic: yes he has
Tiarella: (I agree, mp! :D)
#Ann Druyan: Tarav:
Where did Carl ever say that?
misterpessimistic: Tara: Like the 'end of history'
tarav: Ann- well he mentions it on p 318 in PBD
tarav: Actually, he is discussing what others
tarav: I am not sure that he meant to agree
Chris OConnor: I'm extremely concerned for our
species future. We walk a fine line between production
and destruction. The same science that creates
increased standards of living and other benefits
also can destroy everything just as quickly.
misterpessimistic: It is not the science, but
Meme Wars: I see he talks about asteroid impacts
on p 318.
#Ann Druyan: We both
thought the "End of History" idea was
weak And I was delighted to read last week that
its author came to the conclusion that the Iraq
War and the whole neo-con thing was really nuts.
misterpessimistic: 'we' always tend to make the
wrong choices in any situation
tarav: I have soft cover, then again maybe i
made a mistake in my note
Meme Wars: Science will not cure the moral dilemma
#LanDroid: It can be the scientists too. The
scientists that were so horrified at the atomic
bomb rushed to develop the thermonuclear bomb.
misterpessimistic: no it will not...
Meme Wars: Only hard evolution might.
misterpessimistic: but it is all politically
Tiarella: Sorry - hard evolution?
#Ann Druyan: Tarav-I'm
looking at PBD and Carl makes no such claim about
misterpessimistic: Ann: The 'end of history'
seems weak to me too...nice catch phrase though
Chris OConnor: But what will? How do we reduce
the chance we will destroy ourselves? We're to
the point now where rogue nations and individuals
with agendas can cause global damage.
Meme Wars: The hard knocks of life are the only
thing our species pays attention to.
misterpessimistic: Chris: It may take a walk
to the brink before we learn
Meme Wars: But in some instances, the hard knocks
booper54: misterpessimistic: but haven't we done
Katala Au left
Katala Au joined
misterpessimistic: Meme: And those in power tend
to want 'us' to stay within the day to day of
Katala Au: And we elect them...
misterpessimistic: Booper: No...Hiroshima and
Nagasaki were localized...something needs to happen
on a global scale
#Ann Druyan: Chris:
To your question-We can only do everything possible
to support and improve public education. It is
our only hope. That and seeing that every child
is loved by someone and taught mercy.
misterpessimistic: not that I wish this mind
Chris OConnor: If we walk to the brink we may
never have the opportunity to not go over the
Meme Wars: Those in power are no more in control
than the ones they serve. It is memes and genes,
mindless algorithms, which are in control.
Tiarella: Have you noticed how environmentalism
is a fairly integral part of public school curriculums?
- hah, Ann took the words out of my mouth!
misterpessimistic: Chris: too true
misterpessimistic: Ann: What do you think about
the 'No Child Left Behind' act
Chris OConnor: Ann - excellent answer! Yes, it's
all about education and teaching empathy and compassion
or "humanistic" beliefs. But how do
we do this? What's the key to improving education?
Tiarella: Seeing that every child is loved is
a really tough order - but imagine if we're ALL
asked to volunteer an hour a week in schools,
in coaching new parents, etc...
Katala Au: and critical thinking skills...
Meme Wars: Darwin's variations, population, displacement,
and change in population of ideas, cultures, and
Chris OConnor: Katala - true
SunSprite86: Tiarella: Just for the record, I
DO teach environmental science. I've noticed the
high school doesn't, though. They do aquatic science
#LanDroid: Heh, at some level we're discussing
"meme wars". Public education and so
forth against fanaticism and the like.
#Ann Druyan: The "NCLBA"
is about as true to its name as the Clear Skies"
Act. It's a disaster-not about critical thinking
but about rote learning .
misterpessimistic: Thank you Ann, I agree whole
tarav: Ann- very true!
misterpessimistic: It is a farce
tarav: Ann- I am a public school teacher, and
I couldn't agree more!
Katala Au: can someone explain that act for those
non-Americans among us? (well me ;p)
misterpessimistic: meant to show that something
is being done when in actuality, nothing is
ginof: but why do we always seem to fall for
this kind of stuff?
tarav: absolutely, nick
misterpessimistic: gino: Because we let them
SunSprite86: Right now, Texas is changing their
assessments to emphasize thought process and problem
solving. It's a step in the right direction, anyway.
Katala Au: That's good to hear, Sunsprite...
misterpessimistic: we fall for the ultra patriotic
crap and nonsense that is meant to disguise the
real problems this world faces
Tiarella: Math education has vastly improved
over what I had as a kid
Chris OConnor: After this chat we'll all have
some things to look up and research. I'll post
what I find in the PBD forum.
#Ann Druyan: There are
so many of those who are wide awake. I'm lucky
to live in the beautiful small town of Ithaca
where people seem so generally enlightened.
tarav: However, due to the emphasis on testing,
science is often not taught in states where it
is not tested
#Ann Druyan: Excellent
misterpessimistic: Ann: So many are awake, but
we are outnumbered
tarav: very sad
Katala Au: Tara - it's not a compulsory subject
at your school for the younger grades, right...
#Ann Druyan: No we're
Chris OConnor: Ann - do you think you'll speak
at any future Atheist Alliance International conventions?
...such as the one in LA in April?
tarav: Nicole- on paper it is, but in reality...
misterpessimistic: Science...and don't forget
the Creationist nonsense
Tiarella: Yes - in the elementary schools my
kid's been in, science has been up to the individual
teachers - sorry this post is out of order.
SunSprite86: that's true. Texas has just in the
last 2-3 years added both science and social studies
assessments that must be passed in order to graduate.
misterpessimistic: In Georgia, there are some
schools that will not allow the word evolution
to be used!
#Ann Druyan: I don't
have any plans at the moment. However, I do feel
a sense that the skeptical community is growing.
misterpessimistic: Sun: Now that GWB is gone,
it just may get better
Tiarella: Aren't you being a trifle premature?
misterpessimistic: Ann: What are your thoughts
on the Brights movement
Meme Wars: I hope you are right Ann.
Chris OConnor: misterpessimistic - good question!
Tiarella: (Oh, mp - you meant in Texas! )
misterpessimistic: Tia: Yes!
#Ann Druyan: My fantasy
is that we will defeat GWB and that will lead
to a sudden spark of confidence and hope.
Katala Au: good question Nick
misterpessimistic: I hope your right....I will
do my part to see him gone
Tiarella: Ah, but imagine being Kerry and having
to clean up the mess!
Meme Wars: I am editor and treasurer of Humanist
of North Puget Sound. Our newsletter is called
"Sound Views", for Puget Sound.
SunSprite86: I recently took a certification
exam to add another teaching field. The test had
heavy emphasis on evolution and genetics. That's
probably also a good sign.
James Totalitarian: I read an article recently
that said it'll be better in the long run if Bush
gets a second term
James Totalitarian: because he'll have to clear
up his own mess
#Ann Druyan: I deeply
respect Richard Dawkins but I don't think that
the "bright" idea is necessarily a good
one. I think it makes us seem arrogant.
misterpessimistic: Who wrote that James
misterpessimistic: My thoughts too
James Totalitarian: I can't remember, it was
in The Guardian
Chris OConnor: Ann - I totally agree. The word
James Totalitarian: an editorial about a week
#LanDroid: Life is gonna be a bitch for whoever
misterpessimistic: I have posted on their forums...they
are very intelligent, but very exclusive to other
modes of thought
James Totalitarian: I'll look it up for you afterwards
if you like
Meme Wars: Yes, the mess is so bad for Kerry,
that even at his best, he will probably not get
re-elected. Then the Republicans can go in and
finish killing the Beast called Social Security.
Katala Au: Ann - what do you think about the
whole "but the word "gay" being
used doesn't imply heteros are "dull"
so the word bright will change etc..."
misterpessimistic: The Brights love it though!
misterpessimistic: James: Thanks, yes
James Totalitarian: America needs nationalized
Meme Wars: But Rationalist also make us seem
James Totalitarian: it's just barbaric now to
James Totalitarian: *not
Meme Wars: Because the opposite is irrational.
misterpessimistic: James: I agree
Tiarella: Kat - that's weird, because "dull"
is not the opposite of "gay," "gay"
#Ann Druyan: I am searching
my own soul 24-7 for a way to reach people about
what I consider a fundamentally destructive delusion.
James Totalitarian: I guess as a Briton I'm biased
-- I've never met a person who'd give it up
Chris OConnor: I prefer "atheist" -
The word "Atheist' clearly defines what I
am....which is a person that doesn't have a belief
in a god or gods. There are no beliefs associated
with atheism. My beliefs, on the other hand, are
of the secular humanist kind.
Katala Au: Tia - I know...that seems to be the
argument though...who knows...
#Ann Druyan: I have,
if I understand you correctly.
Tiarella: Which fundamentally destructive delusion?
#Ann Druyan: I believe
we know nothing about God-not a thing. We hardly
know anything about our tiny corner of the universe.
Meme Wars: I do not prefer "Atheist, because
the sub root of the word is theist, which makes
theism primary, and atheist a secondary off shoot.
#LanDroid: What's wrong with humanist?
Tiarella: Ann - yes! A study of religion is a
study of MAN!
#Ann Druyan: Atheist
posits knowledge. I would like us to get to a
place where we embrace our newness and lack of
Chris OConnor: Ann - so true. Which is why some
of us don't make the claim to "know"
whether or not a deity exists....that's the epitome
of arrogance and ignorance. Some simply lack belief
until evidence exists.
Meme Wars: It also creates a non defensible position
of trying to prove a universal negative.
James Totalitarian: someone on the forum posited
a four tear system for the 'atheist/agnostic'
tarav: Chris did
misterpessimistic: That was Chris
Chris OConnor: James - that was me - a chart
James Totalitarian: with: agnostic atheist, gnostic
James Totalitarian: and so forth
James Totalitarian: well, I liked it immensely
#Ann Druyan: Yes. I
think we should call ourselves "clueless."
Chris OConnor: I think most scientists are aware
that we know so very little about this universe
that claiming any such knowledge is ridiculous
misterpessimistic: I just know what I 'know',
it is not belief in god that has me worried, but
what 'his' followers do in 'his' name
Chris OConnor: haha
Meme Wars: Yes, the theist cannot place us in
a position of defense if we have no opinion. We
place the burden of proof on their positive claim.
#Ann Druyan: That's
why it makes me so furious when people say science
is arrogant. Science
doesn't make claims to knowledge it doesn't have.
misterpessimistic: True Ann
Chris OConnor: Ann - I'm not sure if I'd join
that organization! ACP = Association of Clueless
Katala Au: exactly
misterpessimistic: Science attempts to explain
based on the available evidence
James Totalitarian: indeed, I think any religion
must be at the mercy of what's best for life on
misterpessimistic: I am clueless and PROUD!
Chris OConnor: Nick! LOL
Tiarella: I think people confuse the study -
science - with the students - scientists - who
can be arrogant.
misterpessimistic: There is nothing wrong in
admitting you do not know something, so long as
you are willing to learn what you do not know
Meme Wars: I think the arrogant self assured
are put off by science calm stance of depending
on evidence, and always willing to amend current
positions with new relevant information.
misterpessimistic: It all comes down to people...some
are arrogant and some are not
#Ann Druyan: Clueless
and proud! Yes! Because like Socrates knew we
know most who know we know nothing.
Meme Wars: They do not know how to respond to
the claims of science, so they get emotional and
call it arrogant.
tarav: I agree, Meme
misterpessimistic: Me too Meme
Chris OConnor: Ann - Ok, even though we all recognize
that we are "clueless," would you agree
that science and reason are mans only valid cognitive
tools for discovering and understanding our environment.
I am not referring to the environment within,
such as our emotions and feelings, although this
is a science itself.
#Ann Druyan: And science
can be so excluding. That's what Carl was trying
Meme Wars: This is only to take the heat off
those who make claims they cannot support.
#LanDroid: Gnostic = having knowledge therefore
Tiarella: Okay - but haven't y'all noticed a
lot of people claiming to be scientists, but not
being... very good scientists? Not very skeptical
of their own research?
James Totalitarian: I think a lot of people are
scared that to accept science is to deny the beliefs
that give them hope
misterpessimistic: Chris: If only dissident was
#Ann Druyan: Tiarella:
Yes, scientist are just as screwed up as the rest
Chris OConnor: Ann - as opposed to "intuition"
tarav: there is hope in science!
misterpessimistic: it is the human, not the vocation
Katala Au: There doesn't seem to be a quick easy
way to make people feel good about science, in
the way they get it from religion...
Chris OConnor: Tara - ROFL
misterpessimistic: Kat: Because science does
not tell us what we WANT to hear, just what is
#Ann Druyan: Katala
Au-That's where the education part comes in.
misterpessimistic: Education is the key to everything
Katala Au: yes true....
#Ann Druyan: It should
be a soaring spiritual experience.
Katala Au: I absolutely agree.
James Totalitarian: apart from the things education
is not the key to
James Totalitarian: like doors
Chris OConnor: lol
misterpessimistic: I try to impress on my children
the value of education and inquiry...and they
all do exceptionally in school and in life
Tiarella: Kat - but Sagan's books - and a speech
of Ann's I read in a link at Booktalk - do make
me feel good about science. Inspirational!
#Ann Druyan: What we
want to hear is that we will never die. And when
our parents tell us about heaven they are assuring
our lifelong infancy.
Chris OConnor: misterpessimistic - oh? and what
is the exception?
Katala Au: Ann - yes..and I love that paragraph
in Demon Haunted World where Sagan says how science
is spiritual ...no one seems to really get that...
misterpessimistic: Ann: Well spoken
Meme Wars: Yes, the Creationist also believe
education is the answer; that is why they push
to include "Intelligent Design", so
their ideas do not die off.
misterpessimistic: Chris: Exception?
misterpessimistic: I'm lost again...darn it
James Totalitarian: Ann -- I wondered if you
knew -- has the concept of circular time been
Chris OConnor: Nick - nm
Tiarella: Why is the thought of not being so
scary? We were all not being before we were born
- and it wasn't scary.
misterpessimistic: Creationist education is an
booper54: I think Carl did a great job showing
the spiritual side of science.
James Totalitarian: because that would be a scientific
basis for eternal life
Chris OConnor: James - agreed
#Ann Druyan: Forgive
me. I'm not familiar with the notion of circular
James Totalitarian: that time is essentially
Chris OConnor: I'm not familiar either
James Totalitarian: and we relive our lives forever
misterpessimistic: Time...it boggles my mind...just
what is it?
Chris OConnor: James - but what does that mean??
ahh...reincarnation or rebirths.
#Ann Druyan: This need
to be the center of the universe is a part of
our childhood. We will outgrow it.
Tiarella: MW, mp - it's propaganda. Hmm - is
the educational program of one's philosophical
opponents always seen as propaganda?
James Totalitarian: reliving the same life
misterpessimistic: Tell that to the Geocentrists
Chris OConnor: Ann - I sure hope so. The image
of the "pale blue dot" could help us
to outgrow it, but we need to share it with more
Meme Wars: It is the nature of evolution that
has us fear death. Life forms that did not fear
death and not too much into self preservation
simply had less surviving offspring to continue
Tiarella: James: like the movie, Groundhog Day?
misterpessimistic: Tiarella: Yes...I think it
Chris OConnor: Meme - excellent point. Fear of
death and pain is selected for naturally.
misterpessimistic: Groundhog Day is a great movie!
tarav: it is!
James Totalitarian: I think there's a difference
between an evolutionary, instinctual fear of death
and a logical one
Katala Au: I agree James...
#Ann Druyan: Fearing
death enough so that you don't do incredibly stupid
things is a selective advantage-but being paralyzed
by the fear of death is a distinct selective disadvantage.
James Totalitarian: the logical one being the
one that leads to depression and suchlike
Tiarella: Ann - because one won't take risks?
Meme Wars: Yes, and extreme fear is also selected
Chris OConnor: Pictures are so powerful. The
image of our planet from so far away gives me
chills. But the best part is when Carl says, "Ann
suggests an experiment," and then describes
how we should do some imagination exercises
Tiarella: James - I live with someone who suffers
from depression, and despite my psych training,
I've come to believe it's mostly biochemical.
James Totalitarian: that reminds me of Hitchhiker's
#Ann Druyan: I know
I'm going to die and it doesn't prevent from doing
anything-In fact, it's probably one of the zillion
reasons we're willing to reproduce.
Glory Matthews: Even though I've just been a
lurker, I've enjoyed reading the conversation
and ideas that were presented in this chat. I
must go, but I want to thank Chris for site and
work & Ann for visiting and sharing her time
and thoughts. Be well.
Chris OConnor: Ann - good points
Katala Au: Bye Glory
Chris OConnor: Thanks Glory
#Ann Druyan: Thank you
Glory and Chris.
tarav: bye glory
Meme Wars: I believe self replicating robots
will finish the exploration of our galaxy.
James Totalitarian: bye
Tiarella: Bye! Thanks for coming!
Glory Matthews left
James Totalitarian: I think some depression is
biochemical, and some is a result of quite lucid
and logical fear and hopelessness
misterpessimistic: I fear death because I don't
want to leave anyone behind! Is that narcissistic?
Tiarella: Just don't take 'em all with you, mp!
Chris OConnor: Ann - so what did you think of
the way "Contact" turned out? ...the
Katala Au: Not wanting to leave because you want
to live forever is narcisstic ;p
#Ann Druyan: James-I
think you're right.
Meme Wars: That consciousness in machines can
outlast may human generations and will not die.
Memory patterns will simply be transferred into
clone minds and branch out.
misterpessimistic: Contact was EXCELLENT Ann
booper54: I've seen that movie at least 20 times,
It's my favorite
Tiarella: (I'd certainly be anxious and depressed
if I were an Iraqi)
#LanDroid: I'm afraid of death because I figure
they'll find signals from a network of alien civilizations
about 2 hours after I'm gone.
Chris OConnor: Contact is by FAR my favorite
movie of all times. Quite emotional. Booper, you
beat me! I've seen it about 7 times.
misterpessimistic: It encompassed everything
misterpessimistic: Politics, religion science,
#Ann Druyan: Thank you.
There are parts of it I am very proud of- My favorite
part is actually that series of removes that follow
the signal back to Earth into little Ellie's eye.
Tiarella: Lan - ROFL! Yes, I don't want to miss
anything! Is it okay if I just watch, after I
die? I'd be okay with that.
misterpessimistic: I love the ending...the way
everything gets turned on Ellie
Meme Wars: I'm surprised by the strong atheistic
theme in "Contact", and that it was
able to make main stream. There is hope!
Chris OConnor: Ann - yes, that's good stuff.
To me the sound of the signal gives me goose bumps,
but I'm aware that the real SETI doesn't make
misterpessimistic: leaves you thinking
Tiarella: Contact is the only movie I went out
and bought for myself.
Chris OConnor: Tiarella - my brother gave it
to me, but it is only one of about 5 movies I
misterpessimistic: I also love the scenes from
the vessel that Ellie see while traveling
James Totalitarian: WARNING -- my cat is getting
ready to walk over my keyboard, so ignore any
#Ann Druyan: I'm delighted
you liked it. We were able to get Ellie's atheism
into the movie-but not pi.
misterpessimistic: oh....and the part when she
frees herself from the harness and the locket
booper54: Why couldn't you get pi?
Tiarella: (James: we won't notice any diff, I'm
Meme Wars: Not pi? What do you mean by that?
Chris OConnor: Ann - thank you very much for
spending some time with us. If you can spend more
you're welcome to chat all night. We're all having
fun. If you need to go watch Bush we understand!
#Ann Druyan: Warner
Bros. was adamant that there would be no math
in a movie of theirs.
Meme Wars: So the actor herself is Atheist?
Chris OConnor: Jodie is an atheist?
misterpessimistic: Ann: Your joking right!?
James Totalitarian: I'm afraid I'm off to watch
Tiarella: She said "Ellie", not Jodie...
misterpessimistic: I will not watch crap on TV!
Chris OConnor: Lets limit the goodbyes though....it
will not help the transcript.
Katala Au: yes....Ellie....lol ...unfortunately....
misterpessimistic: Bush that is
tarav: I'm with you, nick
#Ann Druyan: I really
enjoyed this. It was really nice meeting you and
thinking with you.
James Totalitarian: I think it's important to
understand your opponent and to know his words
backwards and forwards
Meme Wars: Too bad for the math, Ann Druyan!
misterpessimistic: The pleasure is ours!
Katala Au: Thanks so much, Ann. This was really
Chris OConnor: Ann - yes, this is a special treat
for us at BookTalk.
tarav: Ann- Thank you for coming!
Tiarella: Yes, thank you! :D
booper54: Thank you so much.
James Totalitarian: It has been fun, definitely
James Totalitarian: Thank you
#LanDroid: Enjoyed it, thanks!
misterpessimistic: Thank you so very much
Chris OConnor: Ann - I have mailed something
to you, but should have sent it days earlier.
You'll get it tomorrow or Friday.
Chris OConnor: Ann - thank you very much for
everything and for being so darn nice too.
Meme Wars: Ann, what in your mind is the most
likely future of humanity by 2100?
#Ann Druyan: I'll be
looking for it. Good night.
Katala Au: Meme - timing ;p
Meme Wars: Back to stone age with insufficient
energy and a depleted planet?
Chris OConnor: Good night Ann!
Tiarella: Great question, though.
Chris OConnor: Thanks again
#Ann Druyan left
to Chat Transcripts | Home