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connected: ezChat version 0.54
Chris OConnor:: Hey Michael!
ZombieHatesYou joined
Chris OConnor:: Hey Zombie
ZombieHatesYou:: Hiya
NaddiaAoC joined
ZombieHatesYou:: Hi Naddia
Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl
Chris OConnor:: brb...reading it
ZombieHatesYou:: I just read it.
Chris OConnor:: ok
NaddiaAoC:: Hi weirdos
ZombieHatesYou:: *is not weird!*
ZombieHatesYou:: *tries a different color*
NaddiaAoC:: Anyone with a name like ZombieHatesYou is
definitely weird.
ZombieHatesYou:: Oh, pshaw
Kostya@booktalk joined
Kostya@booktalk:: Hi!
ZombieHatesYou:: Hello.
Chris OConnor:: reading....will chat when done
disabledpublishing joined
disabledpublishing:: hi
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi zombie
Kostya@booktalk:: for a minute I thought that no one
wants to talk to me
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi kostya
ZombieHatesYou:: Hi Michael
Chris OConnor:: Nah, I am reading the article again...but
we can talk about anything
Kostya@booktalk:: Hi Michaelangelo
Chris OConnor:: Massimo debates Creationists
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is kostya massimo?
Chris OConnor:: and does quite well
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I debate creationists sometimes
ZombieHatesYou:: I debate them, too. I'm a masochist.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nods
Kostya@booktalk:: I am not Massimo
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hello not massimo
ZombieHatesYou:: lol
Kostya@booktalk:: You asked...
disabledpublishing:: i back from being sick
Kostya@booktalk:: Hi publishing. I am sick as a dog.
I have a bad case of flu, so I'll try not to breath
on anyone here...
Chris OConnor:: Shauna - I'm glad you are feeling better
Chris OConnor:: I have been on antibiotics for the past
week
ZombieHatesYou:: Damn, I wonder what happened to Genryu.
pigliucci joined
disabledpublishing:: do we get to chat casual after
the chat
Chris OConnor:: Massimo!
ZombieHatesYou:: I think my phone card is dead, or I'd
call him to see where he is.
Chris OConnor:: Welcome!
pigliucci:: Hello everybody!
ZombieHatesYou:: Hello, Massimo.
disabledpublishing:: hi
Kostya@booktalk:: Hi Massimo
NaddiaAoC:: Hi Kostya, Shauna, and Massimo!
Chris OConnor:: Everyone, this is Massimo....like you
needed that introduction
Kostya@booktalk:: Hi Naddia
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Massimo
Chris OConnor:: I was telling them how you debate creationists
regularly
Chris OConnor:: and spank them
ZombieHatesYou:: Hehe
pigliucci:: thanks for the
invite, Chris.
Chris OConnor:: ...but they don't realize they have
been spanked.
Chris OConnor:: We're happy to have you
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Zombie debates horny Pakistanis,
and spanks them
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - there is no real format for
a chat like this.
NaddiaAoC:: *likes to be spanked*
NaddiaAoC:: *wishes she was a creationist*
Chris OConnor:: Oh boy Cheryl
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: :spanks often
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - in time I will have chat software
that enables an interview style chat
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this is like booktalk as
done by Fox
Meme Wars joined
Chris OConnor:: But as it is now we just have a casual
chat
Chris OConnor:: Welcome Meme
Chris OConnor:: More will soon arrive
NaddiaAoC:: Michael: Damn, I was hoping it was the HBO
version.
disabledpublishing:: yes happy to have you
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: casual chats are way better,
you get into topics you wouldn't expect and you get
more surprises
NaddiaAoC:: Hi Meme
Meme Wars:: Hello!
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree.. The chat with Professor
Dawkins was fun and casual
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moderated chats seem to kill
the energy of the group and make it more predictable
Chris OConnor:: He enjoyed it
pigliucci:: yeah, casual chats
tend to be a bit confusing given that you are always
answering a comment made several seconds earlier (and
many lines ago... ;-), but I'll do my best.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I think I found a phone card
that works. I am going to go try to track down Genryu.
I know he didn't want to miss this. The absentminded
Buddhist may have forgotten what time the chat was.
ZombieHatesYou:: So, tra la. brb.
Chris OConnor:: Ok, Zombie
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: also, the smarter you are
the more you can use casual chat as a vehicle for good
ideas without making them dull
ZombieHatesYou left
disabledpublishing:: tell us about you work
NaddiaAoC:: Massimo: What are you talking about? J/K
Chris OConnor:: probably true
pigliucci:: about my work,
let's see...
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I think much of Unweaving
the Rainbow was along the same lines as your lastest
article
pigliucci:: I study what biologists
call genotype-environment interactions, i.e., the way
in which nature and nurture (genes and environments)
interact.
disabledpublishing:: i read your work today
pigliucci:: Chris, yes, there
is much I agree with in Rainbow. Which is interesting,
because I usually disagree quite a bit with Dawkins.
Meme Wars:: You do?
NaddiaAoC:: Wow. How interesting! That's along the lines
of what we're reading in Pinker's book now.
pigliucci:: disable, which
work?
Meme Wars:: Examples?
Chris OConnor:: People tend to categorize skeptics,
or science-minded people, as immora or unimaginative
or all sorts of nonsensical things
Chris OConnor:: immoral*
pigliucci:: naddia, yes, and
I'm afraid I have my large bit of disagreement with
Pinker as well... ;-)
disabledpublishing:: july 2003
Meme Wars:: I love to hear about those disagreements.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - if you want to share some
of the ways which you don't agree with Dawkins feel
free.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: kids in school hate math
geeks..probably because they hate math
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - share that too!
Chris OConnor:: Meme - me too!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: scientists are the "school
nerds" even in adulthood
ZombieHatesYou joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: tell me how you spanked dawkins
Chris OConnor:: Welcome back Zombie
NaddiaAoC:: Massimo: Wow. I would love to read your
differing views.
ZombieHatesYou:: Thanks. His line was busy...I suppose
he'll show up if he can.
pigliucci:: examples? of gene-environment
interactions? well, like plants capable of producing
different kinds of leaves when they live in different
light environments or animals capable to develop different
kinds of jaws (e.g., fishes) depending on the diet they
are fed while growing.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - the same plants producing
different leaves when exposed to different types of
light sources?
pigliucci:: Chris, yup, exactly.
pigliucci:: about Dawkins...
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - Dawkins would not accept this?
Meme Wars:: Or identical twins exposed to different
diets?
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - you do specialize in plant
evolution correct? I think I have read that on your
site.
pigliucci:: I actually met
him a couple of times, and I like the guy. We disagree
on the role of genes in evolution. he sees all evolution
from a "gene's eye-view", while I consider
genes just one among many players in the game.
Meme Wars:: I believe Pinker asserted as much.
pigliucci:: Chris, yes, my
actual scientific work is on plants.
NaddiaAoC:: Massimo: So are you saying that you more
strongly favor the nuture side than the nature side?
Is that how you disagree with Pinker?
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - excellent stuff! Ok, name
some other players? Group selection?
disabledpublishing:: what do you thank about scienits
that belive in god
Chris OConnor:: Shauna - uh oh
Chris OConnor:: lol
Meme Wars:: 40% genes, 10% parenting, 50% environment.
pigliucci:: I'm going to be
able to address only one out of three questions here...
;-)
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - take which ever one is more
fun to you....as far as the 3
questions
NaddiaAoC:: LOL. We're going to have to schedule private
chats with Massimo.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: scientists who believe in
God should be tortured and burned at the stake after
giving a public statement denouncing theism
Meme Wars:: But the environment factor is more how it
accidently affects embryology.
pigliucci:: so, no, I'm not
a "nurturist", but I think the key to the
problem is in how genes interact with their environments.
while it is true that genes code crucial info for the
building of an organism, it's also true that genes by
themselves do absolutely nothing.
Chris OConnor:: Naddia - there will be no spanking.
Chris OConnor:: interesting
Chris OConnor:: Michael - ummm...ok
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: SHHH! Don't give me away!
disabledpublishing:: dna is alot of ir
pigliucci:: so, I guess I think
a better metaphor for genes is to think of them as receipes
rather than blueprints. a receipe doesn't make any cake
unless there is an apt environment and a lot of other
things going on.
Chris OConnor:: I think the key to really understanding
the nature vs nurture issue will
be by studying twins
disabledpublishing:: i am studying it now
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - are any of your books about
this topic?
Meme Wars:: That is deeply covered in The Blank Slate.
pigliucci:: twins are helpful,
but not a panacea. you can't control the environment
in which they grow up.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dna is a liberal myth designed
to render us impotent and
helpless so the nanny state can make us into good socialists.
Fortunately God won't let
that happen, because Armageddon is coming soon. Did
I mention hell?
NaddiaAoC:: *wouldn't mind studying a pair of 20 year
old male twins*
Meme Wars:: But one does know the environment is different.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: naddia, are you an intellectual
groupie?
pigliucci:: I haven't read
the Blank Slate yet, but I have read other works by
Pinker, and I would be surprised if he paid more than
lip service to the role of the environment... ;-)
Meme Wars:: And that is all that statistically matters.
pigliucci:: naddia, you are
incorregible... :-)
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - very true. And two twins in
the exact same household are still
experiencing completely different environmental conditions.
They are not treated the same and do not occupy the
exact same space and see things identically o their
twin. There is simply no way to mirror perfectly.
NaddiaAoC:: Michael: What does "intellectual"
mean?
Meme Wars:: He pays alot of service to Environment,
but not in the nurturing role.
ZombieHatesYou:: It's a dirty word, Naddia. Best not
to speak of it.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe it works to say "the
stable parts of the environmentthat are constant from
generation to generation influence genes more than transitory
events"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: naddia--like reading books
and stuff
NaddiaAoC:: Zombie: That's what I thought.
disabledpublishing:: what role dose dna play
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I sure hope environment is
a major factor.
pigliucci:: I have argued in
print that the nature-nurture problem is currently unsolvable
for humans (while we know a lot about it in plants and
some animals) because you can't do the right experiments.
that's because of both logistics (it takes 30 years
to grow a human...) and, obviously, ethical considerations.
Meme Wars:: Yes, but not in a way that is pleasant.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: DNA has tyrannized and oppressed
us too long. We must bomb it.
NaddiaAoC:: Michael: I only read books with thick cardboard
pages that play songs when you turn the pages.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - good point
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: naddia--ok, you're just a
regular groupie who got lost en route to the phish concert
Meme Wars:: Identical twins, one gets virus, other does
not. They are now steering a different embryological
path.
disabledpublishing:: i sill new to dna
pigliucci:: meme, right, good
example.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how much does the chemistry
in the womb affect development?
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - can't we approximate the contributions
of both nature and nurture? Of course we cannot solve
this 100% where we know exactly how much each contributes,
but surely we can make some progress.
Meme Wars:: That is why Pinker assigned parenting from
0 to 10 percent influence.
Meme Wars:: This confuses readers, when he also says
environment has 50% influence.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: environment and genes evolve
together. Every species has genes that somehow reference
or address genes in every predator and prey in the chain
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the meaning of a gene is
how it plays out in the whole
pigliucci:: Chris, again, I'm
skeptical in the case of humans. We can say that genes
definitely affect human behavior, and we can say that
the environment definitely does too. What we have no
experimental handle on is the interaction between these
two factors. Unfortunately, in animal systems this interaction
sometimes overwhelms the individual contributions of
genes and environments.
Meme Wars:: Environment being time and nature of events
affecting morphology and embryology--by the way, embryological
effect continue until death.
pigliucci:: meme, it is exactly
that sort of percentage assignment that Pinker does
that makes no sense at all from a biological perspective.
he is just making numbers up.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I see what you're saying
disabledpublishing:: you right chirs we don't know how
much it play
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - But 76.3% of all statistics
are made up on the spot.
Chris OConnor::
pigliucci:: :-)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: which spot?
Meme Wars:: It is from a combination of twin studies
and also studies of parents raising children not genetically
related to them.
Chris OConnor:: haha
Chris OConnor:: nice Michael
pigliucci:: I'm sure naddia
would answer: the g-spot!
ZombieHatesYou:: You lie, Chris. It's 77.2 %. Let's
not try to mislead the people.
Chris OConnor:: ROFLMAO
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, don't steal naddia's
lines
Chris OConnor:: thats too funny
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: leave some conversation
material for the others
Chris OConnor:: Naddia can't speak after that one
Chris OConnor:: haha
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: naddia, can you wait till
after the discussion to do that?
NaddiaAoC left
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: uh oh
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - oh she left!
disabledpublishing:: what do a skaite meant
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we crashed her computer
Chris OConnor:: She will be back
Chris OConnor:: hehe
Meme Wars:: These detailed multiple studies showed
that parents and peers have little to no effect on developement.
NaddiaAoC joined
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - Did you create the term "rationalistic
fallacy?"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: peers only affect the gene
pool they pee in
ZombieHatesYou:: Welcome back, Naddia.
NaddiaAoC:: OMG! Chris, did you freeze me? That's just
wrong!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our witty banter crashed
your computer
pigliucci:: meme, there is
little human plasticity (i.e., response to the environment)
for morphological traits, but we have abundant evidence
that behavioral traits are a different kettle of fish.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - maybe I should be paying
you Royalties, because I use that all the time
Chris OConnor:: Naddia - I didn't and wouldn't do that
Timothy Schoonover joined
Chris OConnor:: Tim!
Chris OConnor:: Welcome!
NaddiaAoC:: No. I could read what you were writing
but couldn't reply. I think I was being pinned down
by a demon.
Timothy Schoonover:: Hello
NaddiaAoC:: Timothy!
ZombieHatesYou:: Hello, Timothy.
pigliucci:: Chris, I don't
know if I came up with the term rationalistic fallacy
for the first time, but I never heard it anywhere else.
no royalties needed...
Chris OConnor:: I liked your essay on The Rationalistic
Fallacy.
disabledpublishing:: hi tim
Chris OConnor:: I have committed this fallacy over
and over.
Meme Wars:: Yes, but the behavioral traits are unpredictable,
even in stable environments.
Chris OConnor:: But sometimes thowing logic at a mystic
will eventually impact them
Timothy Schoonover:: I seem to remember seeing rationalist
fallacies applied to Descartes
Timothy Schoonover:: err fallacy
pigliucci:: I think the RF
explains a lot of frustration by rationalists who try
to simply explain to others certain things, and then
naively expect them to walk away with their minds changed.
Meme Wars:: The results one seeks in a controlled environment
are often not the ones that are desired or predicted.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the rationalist phallus
disabledpublishing left
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Measuring the Rationalist
Phallus is a good book title
pigliucci:: the RF doesn't
mean that there is no point in arguing or explaining.
Just that it may take going at it several times and
from different points of view.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I liken that to clipping
weeds at the base. You have to get to the roots or the
weeds will continue to grow. Explain one mystery and
you have clipped a weed...maybe. But teach people how
to think critically and you remove the weeds roots.
NaddiaAoC:: It takes SO much thinking and honest contemplation
for a mystic to come around to a rational way of thinking.
Something you say may eventually impact them, but it
won't happen overnight.
disabledpublishing joined
NaddiaAoC:: Michael: I agree! And it should have lots
of pictures!
ZombieHatesYou:: Sometimes, things that seem so right
and logical in our own minds...we expect others to see
that immediately, too. That's the sort of mindset you
find in fundamentalist theists, methinks, too.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: :agrees
pigliucci:: Timothy, Descartes
was a rationalist, and he did engage in some fallacious
argumentation, but I never actually read that term applied
to his work by any professional philosopher.
disabledpublishing:: i got booted '
Timothy Schoonover:: I could be wrong, its only a vague
suspicion
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Very true.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: vague suspicions are enough
for the president
Timothy Schoonover:: we must liberate descartes then?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we can trust them
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: free him from our skulls
Meme Wars:: What are the top disagreements you have
with Dawkins and Pinker?
Timothy Schoonover:: hehe, before he's uses weapons
of mind destruction
Timothy Schoonover:: ugh i can't type
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I know you're not a big fan
of George Bush.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: math destruction
Chris OConnor:: Ahh...we can stick with Pinker and
Dawkins
disabledpublishing:: i never saw your work before today
pigliucci:: Meme, I disagree
with both Dawkins and Pinker about the role of genes
in evolution, as I mentioned earlier. And it isn't a
matter of percentages, I just think of genes and environments
in a different way from what they seem to.
Meme Wars:: Could you clarify?
Chris OConnor:: Disabled - Massimo has several books
you might want to look into. And there are many chat
transcripts available where he debates pseudoscientists
like Duane Gish...free onle.
Chris OConnor:: online*
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I am a fan of Bush, I think
his character has a lot of depth. To be such a tragically
flawed person who wants to please so eagerly...you can't
fake that kind of acting. He believes in his character.
pigliucci:: Chris, the one
about Bush is probably the understatement of the month...
;-)
disabledpublishing:: ok
pigliucci:: Michael, sadly,
I think there is a lot of truth in what you say.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I know...and it would be
fun to talk about.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Cheney
or Rumsfeld had the wmd reference put into the speech
without telling george it was iffy
LanDroid@booktalk joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or if george knew
pigliucci:: Chris, where do
you want to start?
ZombieHatesYou:: I was at the Ann Arbor street art
fair today, and I saw a bunch of people wearing shirts
with Bush's face on them. It said 'International Terrorist'
on the shirt. I thought that was good.
NaddiaAoC:: Hi LanDroid!
Chris OConnor:: Massimo is
Italian and I'm sure has a completely different perspective
on world events...sees things from within and without
LanDroid@booktalk:: Howdy y'all!
Timothy Schoonover:: He believes his job is to rid
the world of evil
NaddiaAoC:: Kostya: Are you still here?
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I am bothered by how the
world views the US
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Italians would never win
office in the US
Kostya@booktalk:: Naddia, yes I am here
Timothy Schoonover:: i dunno, though, at that level
of politics, is *anything* truly innocent?
Chris OConnor:: Welcome LanDroid
Meme Wars:: Neither would Brights!
NaddiaAoC:: Kostya: Good! I have to keep track of my
fellow Cincinnatians!
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I loved your article on the
US being a rogue nation...but I don't necessarily agree
Timothy Schoonover:: So have any of you looked into
this Deist thing regarding Pinker?
pigliucci:: My perspective
is more European than Italian, and I am very weary of
not coming across as a snoddy foreigner who just wants
to criticize.. Then again, the second national Italian
sport is criticizing one's own government (you know
what the first Italian sport is, right?)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: If the guerilla war in Iraq
lingers, it may actually encourage Jihaad, by showing
that US soldiers can be killed.
Kostya@booktalk:: Naddia, I see.
disabledpublishing:: i won't vote for bush next year
LanDroid@booktalk:: Kostya's from Cincy too? I'm in
Greenhills.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - No, what?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: pig--we criticize our government
too, we just act offended when others do it
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - making love?
pigliucci:: Chris, soccer!
Chris OConnor:: hahaha
Chris OConnor:: Ok
Meme Wars:: Bush has made such a mess, I feel sorry
for any President that will have to clean up after him
and try to save face with our european allies.
Chris OConnor::
ZombieHatesYou:: lol...Soccer.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and we fear criticizing
while we feel afraid or in need of leadership
pigliucci:: Well, all right,
there's that too... ;-)
Chris OConnor:: hehe I thought so
Kostya@booktalk:: LanDroid, I am in Fairfield
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the liberal backlash should
come within a few years though
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe even in 2004
LanDroid@booktalk:: All righty, just up the road a
lil' piece...
pigliucci:: Chris, I'm interested
in your disagreement with my article on the US as a
rogue nation. what in particular?
Timothy Schoonover:: I support you on it : )
disabledpublishing:: we are like rome takeing over
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - Do you feel that Bush lied
to the world about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction?
NaddiaAoC:: I actually live in Northern Kentucky, but
for the sake of having people assume I'm literate I
say that I'm from Cincinnati.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - Ok, here is my disagreement
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think the US actually
has very open goals. It wants to transform the middle
east into a zone of trade on the belief that trade prevents
war (basically true) and that it's profitable
ZombieHatesYou:: *looks around for the WMD...even looks
under the couch* No WMD. Hmm...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't know if Bush lied
or was lied to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: one or the other
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I don't see a single country
in the world that is willing to put its citizens in
harms way to help other people.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the WMD were probably sold
to someone outside Iraq if they existed
pigliucci:: Chris, I think
Bush knowingly embellished things in the belief that
he is right. I saw Gish doing something like that during
a debate on creationism. As Martin Luther said, a lie
is not a lie if it is in the service of god...
Timothy Schoonover:: Hm, michael, there is also a big
investment in trading arms in that area too
Meme Wars:: Bush is not in harms way.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: timothy--true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and oil
disabledpublishing:: are bush bulling a empie
pigliucci:: Chris, but that's
my point: it should not be a single country, it should
be a matter for the UN.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - Take Liberia for example.
Maybe I am ignorant of all the ways we would profit
from helping Liberia, but on the "surface"
it looks like any future military action we might take
would be taken for the explicit goal of assisting the
people
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but it's mostly about a
vision of tyranny being ended by whoever has the balls
to do it, and freedom leading to prosperity for all
Meme Wars:: I believe the embargo was working.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's sort of a myth but
an appealing one for americans
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's how we prove our manhood
as a nation
Timothy Schoonover:: Saudi Arabia is the #1 US Arms
purchaser
Meme Wars:: But that the U.S. was not surviving the
embargo (oil).
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I can't see how it's 'helping
people.' I mean, it certainly wasn't an altruistic act
for us to go in there and bomb Iraq all to bits.
Meme Wars:: And wanted to cut it short.
LanDroid@booktalk:: I disagree with the war and think
Bush & Co. lied about WMD, but "Bush = Terrorist"
and "US = Rogue Nation" goes way too far...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Liberia would only be to
help the people, which is why we're not as interested
in a big investment
ZombieHatesYou:: Bush thought we could gain from it.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I agree about the UN, but
why doesn't the UN get some balls?
pigliucci:: Chris, interesting
about Liberia (by the way, I was actually born there,
but that's another story). I think that's why Bush is
so hesitant: no oil, no strategic interest, just helping
people, so why risking political fallouts?
Timothy Schoonover:: What can they do Chris?
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I disagree
NaddiaAoC:: What does WMD stand for?
pigliucci:: Chris, the UN
can't get balls if the US keeps castreting them...
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: You're allowed.
ZombieHatesYou:: Weapons of Mass Destruction, Naddia
NaddiaAoC:: Ah, thank you.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Liberia isn't on the axis
of evil. The Axis of evil is seen as the middle eastern
zone where anti-american dictators rule over resources
they don't deserve
Meme Wars:: And the U.S. has yet to pay up on its dues.
disabledpublishing:: any one wants us to rule thw world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the neoconservatives are
right about the need for a transformative policy, but
wrong about how they go about it
pigliucci:: It seems to me
the US wants it both ways: it is international community
when they need help, it is my way or no way when others
disagree. not very democratic, is it?
LanDroid@booktalk:: Bush may get involved in Liberia
because of the backlash after we did nothing in Rhuwanda
(sp?).
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it should be a global effort,
not something done by one country on its terms
ZombieHatesYou:: Agreed, Massimo.
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - here is my reasoning. Forget
the oil and profits. Anytime people are being abused,
oppressed and killed...the world needs to stop it. It
pisses me off when I hear about women being raped and
people starving. We all must fight this crap together.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: pig--yes, exactly (did
he just call him "pig?" LOL)
JPRT464 joined
Meme Wars:: The secret energy meeting were about Iraq,
I am sure.
ZombieHatesYou:: Rwanda, LanDroid.
Meme Wars:: Otherwise, why were they secret?
LanDroid@booktalk:: The U.S. wants Ted Turner to keep
picking up the tab for the U.N.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush has no concept of multilateralism.
His brain is pure linear and he relies on his staff
to keep him informed, and they all have limited interests
NaddiaAoC:: Hi JPRT
Timothy Schoonover:: That sort of stuff happens all
the time Chris, it just isn't politically expedient
nor in the interests of global stability to pursue that
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and he's a feeling type,
so he feels good as long as he can congratulate his
people and enjoy the game
pigliucci:: Chris, I'm not
disagreeing with you on stopping the crap in the world,
I just don't think the current way is the best way (or
the most honest way) to do it.
Chris OConnor:: Richard! Welcome
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: That happens right here on
US soil. Nothing's done here...why don't we clean up
our own backyard before galloping off to save everyone
else.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bush congratulates and praises
others because of his own deep desire for praise
Timothy Schoonover:: not that we should just look away
Kostya@booktalk left
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and if hte world won't praise
him, it don't exist
ZombieHatesYou:: *pokes a query mark in up there*
disabledpublishing:: he lied about wmd
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: only those who praise bush
get an audience
LanDroid@booktalk:: Good goal on "stopping the
crap", Chris, but we also are rather isolationist
and don't want to be the world's cop - shunning multilateralism
makes this worse.
Chris OConnor:: I watched a movie last night and my
stomach was turning. What was it called? hmmmm... ith
Bruce Willis in Nigeria
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so you need a stealth movement
that praises bush and by praising him, draws him into
controversy
ZombieHatesYou:: LanDroid: I like to refer to the US
as 'The World's Hall Monitor'
Timothy Schoonover:: I would really like to see our
voting system become representative
Meme Wars:: It is quites suspicious the ones rewarded
to rebuilt Iraq, with no active open bidding allowed.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we can't be the world's
cop...but I think we seek external wars to avoid dealing
with our internal toxic memes
ZombieHatesYou:: "YOU! No running in the halls!...psst,
bomb that guy. He walks funny."
Meme Wars:: Bush has blatantly awarded those who contributed
to his campaign.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true meme....and these are
the people who constantly talk about the good of the
free market
Timothy Schoonover:: i agree with you on that michael
LanDroid@booktalk:: Yeah, Zombie, look at who is getting
a "free hall pass" these days...
pigliucci:: Meme, and it is
astonishing that nobody seems bothered by it!
ZombieHatesYou:: *giggles*
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: pig--we're just coming out
of a national fantasy
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Zombie
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I hate to sound like a "cynic"
after your last article, but I am not very confident
our species can continue on an upward path (culturally
and technologically) for much longer.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: fear of emasculation drives
males to overrule females and go to war to prove their
manhood
ZombieHatesYou:: Naddia: It's funny because it's true.
disabledpublishing:: we will alway be in iriq
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: 911 made us feel castrated
and impotent
pigliucci:: Michael, I'm afraid
the national fantasy will keep going for some time.
Timothy Schoonover:: the american public needs a straw
man to beat...the real problems are just to much trouble
to worry about
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and with our rationalist
phallus, we had to go forth and recover our self-respect
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: by kicking some ass
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: spanking something
NaddiaAoC:: Zombie: That would make a good newspaper
comic.
Meme Wars:: Well, even those Americans that have their
doupts about this war, they say little as the gas prices
drop for their monster SUV's.
Chris OConnor:: I feel all empires fall and we will
someday fall. I don't even mean the US necessarily.
I mean humanity.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: strawman politics is very
common now
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Can't they just compare dick
size and get it over with?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true meme
ZombieHatesYou:: That's all it really is, in the end.
pigliucci:: Chris, read my
column on why it isn't desperate to be a liberal semi-optimist...
;-)
Chris OConnor:: How much longer can we keep from a
nuke war?
ZombieHatesYou:: 'Mine's bigger...and I'll prove it.'
disabledpublishing:: do you have a web page
Meme Wars:: Yes, and the weakness of the modern world
is energy.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if humanity falls, it will
be incredibly painful for those who endure it. They
will curse the generations before them for doing nothing.
LanDroid@booktalk:: Long Dong Silver for President!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just wanted to say that.
Resume comparing meme sizes
Chris OConnor:: Lan! Holy &%^^!
Meme Wars:: Iraq has given the USA another 15 years
of energy breathing room.
Timothy Schoonover:: rofl landroid
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I will read it
pigliucci:: disable, my web
page (assuming you were asking me) is www.rationallyspeaking.org,
which right now is not working because of a bizarre
problem with my domain name. try the much more difficult
to remember:
pigliucci:: botany1.bio.utk.edu/skeptic
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Droid!
ZombieHatesYou:: I have to say I find Massimo a much
better chatter than I did Mr Dawkins. *end gratuitous
flattery here*
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I'm afraid of a nuke war,
nuclear winter, and humanity regressing into something
similar to the Dark Ages
Timothy Schoonover:: The war cost what, 80 billion,
is that figure right?
Chris OConnor:: Zombie lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris--I'm determined to
see that not happen
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if enough people are also
determined, it won't happen
Chris OConnor:: Michael - which is why we are involved
in The Big Bang Tango I'm sure
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Stock up on canned ham, darling.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but it probably will because
of lack of determination
pigliucci:: Chris, I keep
thinking it won't happen, but you know, in the general
economy of the universe it wouldn't be such a big deal...
;-)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I can imagine the last people,
dying from radiation sickness, saying "at least
there are probably other planets up there with life"
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - exactly! It really wouldn't.
Life would go on. We are one species of millions. The
planet would continue.
LanDroid@booktalk:: On the other hand - won't the current
difficulties in Iraq and the attitude of the Int'l community
make it more difficult for the U.S. attack unilaterally?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there'd be lots of ufo cults
and end times militias
Meme Wars:: Nuclear exchange will not happen on a large
scale. Frog jump out of that boiling water pretty quickly.
It is the slow rise of temp that boils the frog.
Meme Wars:: And that is the insideous population increase
and resource consumption.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: The US may end up trying
to take out N Korea's nuclear reactors.
pigliucci:: Meme, the frog
analogy was used to great effect in "The Story
of B" by DanielQuinn. Excellent book for both optimists
and pessimists.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that would be in character
for the white house
Chris OConnor:: Meme - the problem is the male ego.
War is almost always the result of the male ego and
desire to conquer and dominate. This is my opinion of
course.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris--and females giving
praise to men in uniform
JPRT464:: Chris, did you see Jared Diamond's article
in the Atlantic on how civilizations collapse (reviewing
some interesting conclusions about the collapse of the
Maya) and we have no reason to believe that ours is
exempt.
Meme Wars:: Never heard of that book.
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I met a group today that
advocates colonizing Mars...speaking of ufo cults.
LanDroid@booktalk:: In character Michael, but still
difficult to believe after the horrors of the Korean
war...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if our civilization collapsed,
at least bookburning would be difficult
disabledpublishing:: thank you for the page
Meme Wars:: Behind every male is a female to take in
the booty.
NaddiaAoC:: *prefers a man out of uniform*
Chris OConnor:: One person does something stupid and
the next has to look like a man/leader and they do something
stupid. Before you know it the sky is filled with ICBM's
Timothy Schoonover:: If Jeremy were here, he'd say
the male ego and its concurrent dilemmas are instintual
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Lan--the current leaders
don't really like ground wars. They like bombing things.
Meme Wars:: If males laide down their arms, the women
would be fit to be tied!
Chris OConnor:: ummm...ok Meme
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we wouldn't go into N Korea
on foot, we'd bomb them and then say "oh no! now
we have to send troops" when N Korea attacked
Meme Wars:: They would say, "Be a man! Get out
there and get me some resources for my nest!"
Chris OConnor:: So what do we do about North Korea
Massimo? Nothing?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: meme--yes
disabledpublishing:: we are falling face it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "be a man" is
what it's about
Chris OConnor:: Is it really none of our business?
By "our" I mean the entire civilized world.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when society lets women
sexually taunt men, that's what they get
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we must upholster our women
pigliucci:: Chris, on N Korea
we engage the international community, starting with
China. which is exactly what it's been done. noticed
how the US hasn't invaded yet.
LanDroid@booktalk:: Yes Michael, that's a given and
a disaster I think they will avoid. I don't think they're
THAT dumb.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - what fabric?
ZombieHatesYou:: lol @ upholster
ZombieHatesYou:: With shag carpeting?
Timothy Schoonover:: I don't think we'll bomb NK
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I agree with that. China
has more at stake too. They should be involved.
ZombieHatesYou:: Fashionable. And functional, if it's
stain-resistant. Also keeps us warm in winter.
Meme Wars:: North Korea doesn't have any resources
for us, um, I mean oil.
LanDroid@booktalk:: Michael, what does "We must
upholster our women" mean? Kink?
Chris OConnor:: Meme - Do you really think all US foreign
policy revolves strictly around oil?
Timothy Schoonover:: Nor is it politically teneble
for the current admin, then really be called warmongers
Meme Wars:: Yes.
disabledpublishing:: we will bomb nk
Meme Wars:: Examine history.
pigliucci:: notice that N
Korea has asked all along for dialogue, they want help,
but we (the US) don't want to be seen as "making
concessions". Like Israel with the Palestinians,
which is why they keep bombing the hell out of each
other.
ZombieHatesYou:: It's probably a big chunk of it, Chris.
I wouldn't say all of it, though.
Timothy Schoonover:: Chris, it revolves around self-interest
LanDroid@booktalk:: Yes, somehow force Japan and China
to take the lead on North Korea.
Timothy Schoonover:: and it always has
Meme Wars:: North Korea has nothing to offer us.
Chris OConnor:: Meme - I sure hope you're wrong. At
this point I have to have more confidence in the people
running the show. I know most/all of you don't share
this optimism.
Timothy Schoonover:: when oil serves the self interest
of the US, then it revolves around oil
Meme Wars:: We are out for ourselves.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's not all about oil
disabledpublishing:: we are the ruler of the world
now'
ZombieHatesYou:: Good point, Massimo.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's about honor, feeling
non-impotent
Timothy Schoonover:: That's worth repeating Meme
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the idea that you must strike
back when hit
Meme Wars:: North Korea is a pesky mosquito we hope
others are more irritated with.
Timothy Schoonover:: Self-preservation, the only moral
absolute
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bush was raised with spankings,
so he needs to spank
Chris OConnor:: Tim - everything revolves around rational
self-interest. It is in our best interest to do something
about N. Korea because if we don't they can become a
threat to us. There is nothing wrong with doing things
for your own interests.
LanDroid@booktalk:: Important fact: I am currently
drinking a dark beer named "Old Leghumper".
AHAHAHAAAAAA! It has a photo of a dog learing at some
female human legs on the bottle. Deeelish!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sometimes honor comes ahead
of self-preservation
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the nazis were all about
honor and should have known they'd lose
Meme Wars:: Its also about trade, profit, cheap labor
(Oh yes, Korea might have cheap labor!)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: suicide bombers are after
honor, even though it never works
ZombieHatesYou:: *has a bottle of Rat Bastard root
beer around here somewhere*
pigliucci:: there is an interesting
book by Kaplan on "warrior ethos" and how
the US is talking Christian values but in reality adopting
the "end-justifies-means" attitude of the
ancient Romans.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree, massimo
NaddiaAoC:: Tim: How is self-preservation a "moral"
absolute?
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I agree too
Meme Wars:: Yes, end justifies means.
Timothy Schoonover:: yes, but US self-interest impinges
upon the self-intesrest of other states, and cannot
therefore be called rational chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be unconsciously
provoking terrorism against ourselves in a self-defeating
way
Timothy Schoonover:: it was a cynical remark naddia
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: self-interest also requires
cooperation
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or at least marketing
disabledpublishing:: i agee piglucci
Timothy Schoonover:: but you must value you your own
preservation, otherwise you have nothing left to value
Meme Wars:: But not at the expense of others.
pigliucci:: Timothy, self-interest
is not necessarily irrational. It becomes so if by pursuing
it to the extreme one ends up causing arm to oneself,
like any time you live in a community rather than on
a deserted island.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: timothy--nobody would serve
in an army then
Chris OConnor:: Tim - have you read any Ayn Rand? She
is big on rational self-interest. Self interest doesn't
mean always doing what is in your own best interest
at that moment. The qualifier is the word "rational."
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is it self interest of the
tribe, or self-interest of the species?
Meme Wars:: We are way beyond self preservation!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or of the individual?
disabledpublishing:: we like romes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: survival of the family is
seen as lower than survival of the nation
ZombieHatesYou joined
Meme Wars:: With our huge homes and monster SUV'S!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: amen meme
NaddiaAoC:: But honor is a form of self-preservation.
There is no honor without the awareness of an audience.
Whether its an eternal life you're preparing for yourself
or glory in the minds of your contemporaries, it's still
a form of self-preservation.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we're consuming out of guilt
for overconsuming
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a viscous cycle
pigliucci:: Chris, Ayn Rand,
there is another person I vehemently disagree with,
even more than with Dawkins or Pinker...
Timothy Schoonover:: Chris: Yes I have, I've studied
her, not extensively, but scholastically at least...and
that was my point
Meme Wars:: We are doing what we can to keep energy
cheep so americans can continute to waiste it and our
children's future.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: honor is symbolic self-preservation
with reference to status in a pack
LanDroid@booktalk:: Yes Meme, and bombing a bankrupt
country inspected by U.N. and patrolled no-fly zones...
Chris OConnor:: It is the US rational best interest
to strive to make the world free from tyranny. Why?
Because we don't want it in our personal lives, and
if we allow it to exist elsewhere it could someday be
imposed on us.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ayn rand's mental type bothers
me...they tend to be clueless socially and justify it
through snobbery
LanDroid@booktalk:: Oh good, what are your disagreements
with Dawkins and Pinker?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like my country for example
Chris OConnor:: Ayn Rand came from a totally oppressed
society and she is a bit biased
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: tyranny prevents free trade
which is the best way to prevent war
Tim OConnor joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: open economies fight against
closed ones
NaddiaAoC:: Hi Tim
Timothy Schoonover:: She is horribly biased...she wants
laissez faire capaitalizm for one
Tim OConnor:: Hello
Chris OConnor:: Tim O'Connor! My older brother folks!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true chris...the neoconservatives
are also influenced by the soviets
Chris OConnor:: Welcome Tim
Meme Wars:: No, we supoorted the Shah of Iran, Saddam,
and supported "has been Laden"
pigliucci:: Lan, sorry, but
we went into that earlier, and I would hate to bore
the others by repeating it. we can talk about it again
some other time.
LanDroid@booktalk:: Welcome older bro!
ZombieHatesYou:: Shoot. My son is crying. brb
disabledpublishing:: hi tim
LanDroid@booktalk:: Oh sorry, I came in late...
Chris OConnor:: Lan - it will be in the chat transcript
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we support our future enemies
often
Meme Wars:: We support countries that surpress their
people as long as they are not communist and will give
us good deals for our corporations.
NaddiaAoC:: Zombie: Just give him a big dose of Benadryl.
That should quiet him for the night.
Chris OConnor:: Laissez Faire would NEVER work
Chris OConnor:: Under Laissez Faire a company could
by the lot next to your house and build a chemical plant
Chris OConnor:: Don't like it? Move
Chris OConnor:: Is this room lagging?
LanDroid@booktalk:: I used to like A. Rand, but tired
of the zero tolerance of gray areas and the "with
me or against me" mentality.
NaddiaAoC:: I don't thinks so.
NaddiaAoC:: You're the only one talking. Hehe.
Timothy Schoonover:: I'm getting warp messages
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: rand wasn't very self-aware,
she identified with her writing persona and wasn't so
good at accepting her emotional self
pigliucci:: Chris, I agree
(on laissez faire). it's amazing how many people think
that "the market will take care of it". It
did with Enron, eventually, but it also left hundreds
of thousands of people without jobs or retirement acounts...
disabledpublishing:: i don't know her work
Meme Wars:: Yes, but Laissez Faire won't work because
it cannot solve the dillema of the "Tragedy of
the Commons".
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: kind of the opposite of
bush
Tim OConnor:: The Shah was an angel compared to what
the good people of Iran have in his place ...
LanDroid@booktalk:: Waddya mean laissez-faire would
noever work? That is what Rand advocated!
LanDroid@booktalk:: noever = never
Timothy Schoonover:: The welfare state is preferable
to laissez faire
Meme Wars:: And the winners of laissez-faire will eliminate
their competition and end competition.
Chris OConnor:: I am a 3/4 Objectivist.The Laissez
Faire stuff is ludicrous
Timothy Schoonover:: its just a huge economically polarizing
machine used to justify gross wealth and severe poverty
LanDroid@booktalk:: Rand wanted ZERO Gov't regulation,
ZERO power over business enterprise freedom. Ridiculous.
NaddiaAoC:: What's Laissez-Faire? Is that extreme liberalism?
pigliucci:: Timothy, the welfare
state has problems of its own. I prefer a system of
managed capitalism, which is what most European nations
have adopted. The US does that too, but I think it is
too close to the free market end of the spectrum.
Timothy Schoonover:: It's extreme capitalism
disabledpublishing:: i behind on my reading
Chris OConnor:: Naddia - No, it is a hands-off policy
where the government doesn't get involved in regulating
anything....it is a free for all where the market is
supposed to take care of itself.
Timothy Schoonover:: I don't know enough about economics
to make a decision massimo
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think laissez -faire is
fine until it interferes with people's rights
LanDroid@booktalk:: Laissez-faire, French basically
for "let do" or "let it alone" -
total free market capitalism without Gov't regulation.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if it leads to monopoly,
consumers should have some way of organizing to change
it
pigliucci:: Timothy, I doubt
anybody knows enough about economics, starting with
the economists... ;-)
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Is that only regarding the economy,
or does it include social and moral issues as well?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and since people can't address
every issue that way, the government has to do some
regulating
Timothy Schoonover:: its only good for the bougeousie
(sp?)
Chris OConnor:: Naddia - Almost no government regulation
at all. If people don't like what you are doing they
won't buy your goods or services.
Timothy Schoonover:: the propertied classes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people tend to forget why
systems are in place, assuming that getting rid of one
thing will fix everything
Chris OConnor:: Naddia - Good question. I think just
the economy.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but you start removing safety
nets and regulations randomly and you find out why they're
there
Chris OConnor:: Michael - exactly.
Meme Wars:: Yes, aggree with pigliucci--managed capitalism
for the good of the people. An Engine needs a throttle,
otherwise it will wreck with passengers inside!
disabledpublishing:: all stocks are down'
ZombieHatesYou:: All right. I am back.
pigliucci:: Meme, good way
to put it.
Timothy Schoonover:: To be honest, I lean more towards
Marxism economically than anything else
NaddiaAoC:: Zombie: WB
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Hitler thought he could
simplify everything and get rid of "impotent bureaucracy"
and he screwed everything up and sunk all his energy
into a war that couldn't possibly succeed
ZombieHatesYou:: Thank you, Naddia.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's how afraid he was
of impotence
pigliucci:: Hey guys, I hate
to say this, but it has been a (delightful) hour, and
it is my bed time. My wife just called... (sorry Naddia
;-)
LanDroid@booktalk:: Good point, Michael - modern conservatives
seem to think Gov't programs were installed in a vacuum
for no reason whatsoever...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Lan--exactly
disabledpublishing:: no work
Timothy Schoonover:: Thanks for coming!
ZombieHatesYou:: It was wonderful to chat with you,
Massimo.
Chris OConnor:: I'm in real estate and I can give an
example....Deed Restrictions. Spend $150,000 on a home
and have your next door neighbor open a junk yard and
see how much you care for the "freedom" of
Laissez Faire capitalism. You instantly loose equity
in your home.
LanDroid@booktalk:: Thanks!
NaddiaAoC:: Massimo:
pigliucci:: it was my pleasure.
Chris, anytime you want to do this again let me know.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: night massimo
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you didn't give naddia her
spanking
disabledpublishing:: night
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - thank you very much for being
our guest!
Chris OConnor::
pigliucci:: good readings
and thinking everybody. good spanking naddia.
Timothy Schoonover:: I think one of our next books
should be on ECONOMICS\
Chris OConnor:: Massimo - I sure will. Thank you!
Meme Wars:: Thank you for honoring us Pigliucci!
Chris OConnor:: hahah
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what was the book people
liked about the clash of civilizations?
Timothy Schoonover:: night
NaddiaAoC:: This is obviously a spankless group. But
thanks for chatting with us, Massimo!
Chris OConnor:: Naddia had her impact on Massimo
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: was it the lexus and the
olive tree or a different book?
pigliucci left
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a spankless task
Timothy Schoonover:: *goan* @ michael
Chris OConnor:: That was fun
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: spankenstein
ZombieHatesYou:: That went really well, I think.
Chris OConnor:: Better than most Thursday night chats
for sure
Meme Wars:: I wished we could have followed up on the
details of Pigliucci’s disagreement with Dawkins
and Pinker.
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - where was Genryu?
ZombieHatesYou:: Much more organized than the Dawkins
chat. Genryu will be unhappy he missed it.
ZombieHatesYou:: I have no idea, hon.
LanDroid@booktalk:: The Lucifer Principle mentioned
the clash of civilizations.
Tim OConnor:: Chris: that was because I showed up.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Lucifer principle
was good
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it covered a lot of stuff
without being boring
Meme Wars:: It was also a shorter chat. The one with
Dawkins lasted almost two hours!
ZombieHatesYou:: He disappeared right before 9, and
hasn't been back on. I tried calling, but the line was
busy. Something must've come up.
Chris OConnor:: Meme - Yes, that would be relevant.
I can get in touch with him and see if he will discuss
it on the forums
Chris OConnor:: Yes, Tim O - you saved us!
NaddiaAoC:: Tim: Yes. You were really the gel that
held this chat together. Thank you for being here.
disabledpublishing:: now do we have our weekly casual
chat
Chris OConnor:: Everyone say hello to my big brother
Tim!
Tim OConnor:: No problem Naddia. Glad to help!
ZombieHatesYou:: I did, Timothy. We didn't accomplish
much discussion at all.
Timothy Schoonover:: Heyas!
disabledpublishing:: hi tim
NaddiaAoC:: Tim: I don't know. Unfortunately I slept
through the Dawkins chat.
Chris OConnor:: Tim - I have received dozens of emails
from people who have read that transcript and thought
it was a total blast
Meme Wars:: I will be analyzing the chat with Dawkins
later.
Chris OConnor:: Well, maybe he was a bit passive
Chris OConnor:: Meme - oh no
Chris OConnor:: LOL
ZombieHatesYou:: I think Mr Dawkins was probably overwhelmed.
People were throwing questions at him right and left
before he could answer the first ones.
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - you're probably right
ZombieHatesYou:: The end result was sort of chaotic.
Timothy Schoonover:: And since we really didn't have
a format, we just went in circles
Meme Wars:: He did come strong against Religion and
really into "I'm a Bright!"
ZombieHatesYou:: And he'd never been in a chat before,
correct?
Chris OConnor:: As soon as I can get some better software
we will have some structure
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - correct
Timothy Schoonover:: I can see that, but I don't know
how we could have improved the time
LanDroid@booktalk:: I read the Dawkins transcript,
wasn't here, but it was his FIRST chat session and I
gather he was a little overwhelmed - not possible to
address every query.
disabledpublishing:: chirs can i pm u
ZombieHatesYou:: Right. So that contributed to the
chaotic bits.
Chris OConnor:: Shauna - sure.
Chris OConnor:: Yes
Meme Wars:: And I believe Dawkins had the small screen.
If he didn't read fast enough, the question was gone
before he had a chance to respond.
ZombieHatesYou:: It was wonderful to meet Mr Dawkins,
but he was way overwhelmed.
ZombieHatesYou:: I will forgive him.....this time.
ZombieHatesYou::
Timothy Schoonover:: And also the names, he commented
several times on our monikers
disabledpublishing:: i have a few things to ask
Chris OConnor:: I kinda like the chaos. The only solution
is to "gag" people and have one or more people
interview these authors. Who really wants that? Isn't
the fun part actually chatting directly with them?
ZombieHatesYou:: No one ever likes my names...
Timothy Schoonover:: I almost regret pulling that Gluepot
stunt
LanDroid@booktalk:: Yeah, had to get used to the "culture".
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: You didn't have to gag anyone
with this chat.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: interviews are usually boring
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: real chat forces the guest
to actually interact
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it brings out things you
wouldn't get in an interview
ZombieHatesYou:: I think this chat was a hell of a
lot more productive than the Dawkins chat...
LanDroid@booktalk:: We could have a few pre-organized
formal questions perhaps.
Timothy Schoonover:: I agree Zombie
ZombieHatesYou:: Like all the spanking, huahua?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could always introduce
topics
ZombieHatesYou:: I don't think it's a matter of formal
questions...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: have one or two people whose
job is to bring up the central topics whenever people
drift
Chris OConnor:: Every scientist will be different
ZombieHatesYou:: Just taking turns.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yes zombie
LanDroid@booktalk:: Possibly because Massimo is used
to chat, internet, etc.
Chris OConnor:: Its a matter of personality
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: No way? :O
ZombieHatesYou:: =P
Chris OConnor:: Zombie needs a beating
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: imagine an interview..."Would
you like to spank any of our readers?"
Timothy Schoonover:: I like the idea of submitting
certain discussion topics in advance, so they don't
feel like their walking into boiling room or anything
ZombieHatesYou:: Beat me, baybeh.
Chris OConnor:: Michael ROFLMAO
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: did you guys hear about
that shooting women with paintballs thing?
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Michael
LanDroid@booktalk:: Damn, I missed the good parts of
this chat!
ZombieHatesYou:: "Because they would consider
it quite an honor if you gave them a good spanking in
the name of science."
Chris OConnor:: Tim - as soon as I get some chat software
I will do that
Tim OConnor:: I am gonna run. Thanks for inviting me
Chris. Sorry I was late. I had just finished reading
Massimo's article and he left
Chris OConnor:: Bye Tim! XOXOXOXOX
Timothy Schoonover:: Nice to meet you Tim
ZombieHatesYou:: Bye Tim
Timothy Schoonover:: I love your name
Timothy Schoonover:: best name in the house
Chris OConnor:: hehe
ZombieHatesYou:: My name is better.
ZombieHatesYou:: *sniffs*
Timothy Schoonover:: yeah but you eat brains!
Chris OConnor:: Horse pucky
ZombieHatesYou:: I do not.
Tim OConnor left
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: now that would liven up
intellectual meetings...regular spankings
Chris OConnor:: Good point Tim
NaddiaAoC:: *would definitely be willing to take a
good spanking for science*
Timothy Schoonover:: yeshuh!
JPRT464:: I came prepared with some questions for Pigliucci,
but the discussion had already sizzled off along those
political lines, which are occupying everyone's attention
these days.
Chris OConnor:: Ok, I need to save this whole transcript
folks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I always wanted someone
to do calculus porn...porno that has math lessons and
stuff
Meme Wars:: What were some of those questions?
Timothy Schoonover:: Massimo is an excellent conversationalist
ZombieHatesYou:: I will save it and send it to Genryu.
Shame he missed it.
Chris OConnor:: So I am done. This takes a bit of time.
Chris OConnor:: Tim - I agree
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a perverted sesame
street with advanced math and stuff
Chris OConnor:: In the future we will host debates
ZombieHatesYou:: Oh, you can't cut and paste
ZombieHatesYou:: How terrible.
Chris OConnor:: I might get some software that allows
voice chat too
ZombieHatesYou:: How do you save it if you can't cut
and paste?
JPRT464:: Who is the next person we will chat with?
Meme Wars:: JPRTR64, What were some of your questions?
ZachSylvanus joined
Chris OConnor:: JPRT - We hope Stephen Pinker
Chris OConnor:: Zach!
ZachSylvanus:: hi all
ZombieHatesYou:: Hello, Zach.
Chris OConnor:: You slow poke
ZachSylvanus:: Sorry, fell asleep after work
Kostya@booktalk joined
NaddiaAoC:: Michael: OMG. I fantasize regularly about
Big Bird.
Meme Wars:: Debates! Cool! B)
Timothy Schoonover:: It's the big pecker isn't it naddia
Chris OConnor:: Ok, you all chat. I am copying this
transcript
ZombieHatesYou: Chris!
LanDroid@booktalk: Heeeee!
NaddiaAoC: Tim: Hell yeah
ZombieHatesYou: How do you save the chat if you can't
cut and paste?
Timothy Schoonover: Go to text mode zombie
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