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Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century - by Howard Bloom

Our second interview and live chat session with Howard Bloom was easily as exciting as the first! Enjoy the interview transcript and please visit the Global Brain forum where we discussed the book. As always, comments are welcomed.

March 06, 2003
Transcript of live chat session

connected: ezChat version 0.50

howbloom:: the lord of the rings trilogy

howbloom:: hi, chris

Chris OConnor:: Hello folks

Jeremy1952 joined

howbloom:: hi jeremy

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, great timing for it, with looming war etc.

Chris OConnor:: Hey Howard!

howbloom:: i have about 30 books in the computer

Jeremy1952:: Hi Dr. Bloom

Jeremy1952:: welcome back!

Chris OConnor:: Howard - were you watching Bush talk the past hour?

howbloom:: one of them is "Hit In The Head By Heavy Metal"

howbloom:: no, what did he say?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was proud of bush today, he only said "nuclear" a few times

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er...nucular

howbloom:: nuculur

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, that one

howbloom:: so what did he say?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - he is giving a speech about why we need to disarm Iraq - preparing for war

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he's such a Pygmalion

Chris OConnor:: I am totally in support of Bush

howbloom:: ok, so how do you guys feel

Sephirah Geburah:: When do you plan on having "Hit in the head by heavy metal" available to the masses?! I would love nothing more than to read your wisdom on music!

Jeremy1952:: I'm guessing he said, we're gonna have a war, and you can't stop me, neener neener neener

howbloom:: about the elephant in the room

howbloom:: the war

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I feel that if we don't address this problem we will pay for it dearly

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm hoping it goes perfectly and the Iraqis love us

pctacitus:: it's a risk, but it may pay off in the long run

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect it's gonna be a bit messier

howbloom:: do you want the bloomean view?

Jeremy1952:: I think it is essentially a holy war;

pctacitus:: yes

Chris OConnor:: Howard - please....yes

Jeremy1952:: I think bush is reintroducing...

howbloom:: this is a necessary war

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I might not be so worried if someone other than a
fundamentalist Christian were in office

Jeremy1952:: but I'll wait

pctacitus:: how so?

howbloom:: we have three choices ahead of us

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think it is too

howbloom:: a pax americana

howbloom:: a world ruled by America

howbloom:: a pax sinica

howbloom:: a world ruled by china

howbloom:: or a mad max nightmare

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mean a world run by multinational corporations through

howbloom:: the possible end of the human race

howbloom:: whatever

pctacitus:: I'll take option #1

howbloom:: that's another issue

howbloom:: and an important one

Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats what I end to the human species

Jeremy1952:: I'm all for rule by america... by an ethical, moral america

howbloom:: in three to five years some of the most insane people in the world

Jeremy1952:: I dont' think its another issue at all

Chris OConnor:: Howard - a regression to the Dark Ages or worse

howbloom:: will have nuculur weapons

Johnny Neuron joined

howbloom:: jeremy, it's an important issue that we can discuss

Chris OConnor:: hey brad - welcome

Jeremy1952:: The issue is, what are we becoming, in persuit of elusive "safety"?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fear the mythology of End Times will influence Bush to refuse to help the peace process in Israel. Anyone who signs a peace treaty there is the antichrist according to a large number of Bush supporters.

Jeremy1952:: The principles of cooperation.... we are a Defector with a capital D.

howbloom:: yes, one of the bloom books that's been waiting in the computer since 1985 is called

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: why would those people be deterred by us imposing regime change on one country though?

howbloom:: the return of the middle ages

pctacitus:: tell us about it

Jeremy1952:: The norms of civilization do not inculde atacking foreign countries

howbloom:: hang on while I read what you've all said, there's more on why this is a necessary war

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they do now, jer

Jeremy1952:: Yes.. return to the middle ages... and Bush is leading the charge

howbloom:: we can't just impose regime change

Jeremy1952:: All this jibber jabber about god in every speach

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's christian hubris frightens's not just the
hawkishness, it's the "God on our side" thing.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow

howbloom:: here's how the evolution of ever larger social forms of organization work

howbloom:: they come together ironically on the basis of a monopoly of force

howbloom:: the nation state for example

howbloom:: originally evolved

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: because of a new megaweapon

howbloom:: the cannon

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how about a new organism transcending nations?

howbloom:: and because monarchs were able to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel like I belong to something multinational and organic

howbloom:: monopolize cannonry

Chris OConnor:: How could they do that?

howbloom:: as a consequence the kings could batter down the previously impregnable walls

cinnamon321 joined

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you monopolize bioweapons?

Jeremy1952:: That's part of it. But nation states are inherently more productive than their predescessors

howbloom:: of nobles who had their own private armies

Jeremy1952:: I think the weapons follow the organization, not the other way 'round

howbloom:: monopoly of power led to a larger peace

Chris OConnor:: Howard - you must read like a maniac to be so well educated in so many subjects. I suggest you join BookTalk

Chris OConnor:: Hey cinnamon

cinnamon321:: hi

howbloom:: lemme continue

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: it's a long thought

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: we're where Europe was in 1905

howbloom:: the Kaiser was working like hell

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect centralization of power will break down at some
point and an emergent, transcendent "species identity" will come up

howbloom:: to take the huge economic power his country had built up

howbloom:: and turn it into weaponry that would allow him to outdo

howbloom:: the empire-making machinery

howbloom:: he'd seen at the age of four

howbloom:: when he went to visit his grandmother

howbloom:: queen victoria

Sephirah Geburah:: Howard - With all your jaw dropping credentials, have you ever considered joining any sort of position in government so you can change the beast from the inside?

howbloom:: but his weaponry would be more advanced

howbloom:: than what grandma had

Chris OConnor:: Good question Sephirah

howbloom:: because his nation was sprinitng ahead

howbloom:: the bottom line is this

howbloom:: if Europe had flattened a bit of Germany in 1905

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd rather be a musician than a politician. People respect musicians

howbloom:: the war that entailed would have been over in six months

howbloom:: instead, there were peace movements

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is that an argument for overkill though?

howbloom:: cries for negotiatiation

howbloom:: and when the war came, it lasted what seemed like forever

Chris OConnor:: yes, it sure did

Jeremy1952:: Howard, when iraq left its borders, it was squashed like a bug

howbloom:: instead of losing 200,000 lives--a terrible, terrible thing

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in hindsight, killing hitler at birth would have been a moral act...

howbloom:: the world lost over 20 million

Jeremy1952:: And if it tries "empire buliding" again, it will be squashed again.

howbloom:: over 19 million lives could have been saved

howbloom:: if there had been a preemptive war

Jeremy1952:: There is no question that Hitler should not have been appeased, when he began to attack.

howbloom:: the same thing came up in 1936

Jeremy1952:: I don't want to live in a world of "preemptive wars", howard.

howbloom:: when Hitler took over Czechoslovakia

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that we're going to apply "brute force" to a problem requiring finesse

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I see your logic...what you are calling for takes strength and foresight

howbloom:: the world cried out for diplomacy

howbloom:: for peace

Jeremy1952:: It is the meta-norms of civilzation that ultimately improve humanity

ZombieHatesYou joined

Chris OConnor:: Hey Zombie

howbloom:: for salving germany's wounds, addressing its legitimate concerns

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, game theory gets complex might not work to apply lessons from the past in a linear way to the present...

howbloom:: in 1936 hitler was bluffing

pctacitus:: This is basic game theory for politics

howbloom:: he didn't have the military force to back up his deeds

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'm sure there are similarities

ZombieHatesYou:: Hey

howbloom:: he had, instead, pacifists and peace movements

howbloom:: and a propaganda machine

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't see this as nazi's more like a tentacled monster

howbloom:: if the west had taken him on

pctacitus:: but there's always someone irrational who wants war

Jeremy1952:: Exactly. And by running "god" up his flagpole, Bush is defecting from the game

howbloom:: in 1936 it would have been a two month war

ZachSylvanus joined

howbloom:: instead it was a war that killed over 20 million

ZachSylvanus:: sorry I'm late

pctacitus:: even though you gain more from peaceful cooperation

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think we'll have to bomb north korea too?

Jeremy1952:: So, who else attacks whom, once we open the floodgates?

howbloom:: preemptive war, that hateful phrase

Chris OConnor:: Pctactitus - True, but this war doesn't seem to be such a wat

Chris OConnor:: Hey Zach

howbloom:: once again could have saved tens of millions of lives

howbloom:: this time around it won't be so easy

Jeremy1952:: You have just justified attackign anyone you think is really reaaly bad...
which means that the arabs are entirley justified

howbloom:: the weapons will be nuclear

Jeremy1952:: in attacking the US and isreael, right?

howbloom:: they already are

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our morale will be greatly damaged if we do things in the wrong's not just power that is a factor, it's what forms of power we can accept using with a clean conscience

pctacitus:: This war resembles what Phillip Bobbit calls the Long War

Chris OConnor:: Yes, I'd like your opinion on N. Korea...I am rather comfortable in our ability to deal with Iraq.

Jeremy1952:: Becuase they think we are really really bad...

howbloom:: someone has to assert a primacy, a monopoly of power

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: to me, it's like a cancer. You can't cut out the have to use something subtl

howbloom:: or we will have nuclear weapons hurled at us from Pakistan, from

howbloom:: Libya, from

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: saddam is more like a tumor, but al qaeda is something else

pctacitus:: it will keep going until all opposing ideas are crushed completely

howbloom:: Korea

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but how does asserting power prevent anything?

howbloom:: and enough nuclear weapons being tossed around in the Mediterranean area

NaddiaAoC joined

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if biological weapons become cheap and available to groups without states?

Jeremy1952:: Yes. Bush had skilllfully distracted milllions from the fact that he is powerless against the real enemy

Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of the Alpha the pecking order

howbloom:: to wipe out humanity

NaddiaAoC:: Hi folks

howbloom:: yes

Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl

howbloom:: the alpha male is the key to social peace

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see everyone reacting to an apocalyptic fantasy and accelerating it in the process

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I think I'm in agreement with you

Jeremy1952:: So do what israel did... we have intelligence that they are building a breeder reactor? Bomb the damn thing

howbloom:: and he uses force and persuasion and caring to win his place

howbloom:: another example, two

Sephirah Geburah:: Oh! Michaelangelo.. Excellent last comment...

Jeremy1952:: Ah, persuasion. Now that would be nice

howbloom:: to assert his primacy, Alexander the Great utterly destroyed a city or two

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so do you think the US, by playing alpha male, can inspire Arab alpha males to suppress terrorism in their own countries?

howbloom:: it was hateful

howbloom:: morally disgusting

Chris OConnor:: Howard - But the Alpha male must have a well-defined code of ethics

howbloom:: but it worked

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there was a movie about the president destroying Baghdad to send a signal

howbloom:: and Pericles ushered in the Golden Age of Athens with an atrocity

Jeremy1952:: We already destroyed "a city or two", Howard.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I'm not sure we'd be safe after that. States would avoid using nukes...but individual groups?

pctacitus:: Deterrence, good flick

howbloom:: flattening a city that tried to wiggle out of the Athenian league

Jeremy1952:: Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it might split the american culture in half

howbloom:: now we have to do that not because

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and cause a civil war here

Jeremy1952:: The firebombing of Dresden?

howbloom:: Iraq is a huge menace, it's not

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think if we used nukes against a city, it would split our society down the middle

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think what Howard believes is that we must behave like the lead dog and demand our way...and self police our behaviors

howbloom:: but because we have to do something that sounds childish and stupid

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I understand the theory

howbloom:: we have to set an example

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's something I've thought about before

howbloom:: an example Kim Jung Il

howbloom:: will pay attention to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we have to be the craziest nigga on the block.

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - this is true

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the theory

howbloom:: an example Osama will pay attention to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how does this work in the inner city though?

howbloom:: that Quaddafi will pay attention to

Jeremy1952:: Oh yea, Osama's paying attention.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...he is scaring the hell out of me

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the math might be similar, use power in gangs as a model

howbloom:: the messagi is this--disarm or we will disarm you

Jeremy1952:: Like the attack on Afghanistan made him stop, right?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we can't find you and you're suicidal?

howbloom:: ok, I have been so busy typing I haven't been able to read

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - they forced him to run...they have disempowered him to a degree

ZachSylvanus:: I'm tempted to think that we don't have much to worry about from Korea, because of China

Jeremy1952:: And the message to ther rest of the world is: we can no longer be trusted to play by the rules

howbloom:: give me two minutes to read what you've said, ok?

Sephirah Geburah:: Everybody take 2!! Go get a soda or some water!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sure

pctacitus:: ok

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - sounds good

Chris OConnor:: This will make an awesome transcript

Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah

pctacitus:: a little disjointed though

Jeremy1952:: We responded to his attack; we took out ten of his people for every one of ours

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: When you're done reading, I'll share a flash poem I made with words from Global have the flash plugin?

Chris OConnor:: I am very afraid of N. Korea right now.

Chris OConnor:: Michael - OMG

Glory Matthews joined

ZachSylvanus:: I don't believe China will allow N. Korea to do anything drastic

Jeremy1952:: Idont' think he will learn a single thing from the US attacking a soverign nation, except maybe that he was right

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've decided to be afraid of everything. It seems prudent

howbloom:: i'm afraid of korea too

Chris OConnor:: Hey Glory - you're late. Please stand in the corner for 30 minutes. Thanks.

howbloom:: yes thye poem, i do have flash


Johnny Neuron:: My take is North Korea is just saber-rattling

Chris OConnor:: N. Korea is behaving irrationally...without provocation

Chris OConnor:: Johnny - I sure hope

pctacitus:: game theory again

Johnny Neuron:: They don't want to be blasted to the stone age

Glory Matthews:: Chris, pfffft! You should be honored, I just got back from the hospital.

Jeremy1952:: Without provoction? I hardly think so

ZachSylvanus:: Without provocation?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: read the other day that Daniel Ellsberg was a game theorist when he worked at RAND

Jeremy1952:: First of all, we promised not to demonize his country

Jeremy1952:: then asshole Bush comes out with the "axis of evil" slap in the face

Chris OConnor:: Michael - very cool!

ZachSylvanus:: The agreement was, they shut down their nuclear reactors, we send them fuel.

ZachSylvanus:: We stopped sending them fuel

howbloom:: who made that poem--ah

howbloom:: michael

Jeremy1952:: Then we prepare for a war of agression against iraq; what are the other nations

ZombieHatesYou:: That was very cool, Huahua.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's my fault

ZombieHatesYou:: Err...Michael.

howbloom:: it is, excuse my language, utterly fucking gorgeous

howbloom:: m8i

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks howard

Jeremy1952:: who we , rather bush, deliberately insults supposed to make of that?

howbloom:: michael, what do you do for a lving?

Johnny Neuron:: Jeremy: true, but I think NK has gone a little farther than Bush in terms of propaganda

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a budding web designer

howbloom:: I want to do more things like that myself

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, this is what triggered the N. Koreans to do what they're doing...but it is irrational. Bush had no idea they would act so crazy

howbloom:: I've turned the whole history of the cosmos into poetry

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: waiting for my girlfriend to move here from sydney so we can start a business

Chris OConnor:: LOL Bloom

Jeremy1952:: Law of unindtended consequences

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--I'd be happy to help you out with flash

pctacitus:: NK is more like Sparta

Jeremy1952:: A good reason to be cautious

pctacitus:: closed off

howbloom:: several musicians are talking about making it into music--Joan Jett and David Was

Johnny Neuron:: NK has a very long history of doing this sort of thing

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my site if you ever want to contact me

Jeremy1952:: How , by the way, are they acting crazy?

howbloom:: and I want to do a Big Bang Tango stage show

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - yes

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see what you're talking about howard

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - hind sight is always 20/20

howbloom:: what you've done, michael, is a step in that direction

howbloom:: a very powerful step

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sounds reminds me of a book I read a while back, but I forgot the title

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thank you

howbloom:: have you seen, no of course you haven't its private

Jeremy1952:: We are threatening Iraq; we put NK and iraq in the same cateogory; they are preparing an nuclear defense

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the sort of thing I'd like to do more of

Jeremy1952:: against a nuclear power that has gone mad.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: well then

Johnny Neuron:: Is it defense or provocation?

Jeremy1952:: It is the U.S. that is acting "crazy"


howbloom:: ?

Chris OConnor:: To those that don't know, Howard Bloom is famous in the music industry and worked with Rolling Stone magazine and stars like Prince and Michael Jackson

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, it worked this time

Johnny Neuron:: Sending missles over the ocean on the day of the S Korean presidential inauguration

ZachSylvanus:: The thing that concerns me most about this series of wars on evil is the patriot acts

Johnny Neuron:: Virtually shooting down our fighter jet

howbloom:: well, I was often in the offices of Rolling Stone but I didn't work for the magazine

Chris OConnor:: Zach - explain

Jeremy1952:: Well, it isn't hindsight yet; the war hasn't started yet. Forsight: we are fucking up the world

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had an acid trip in my 20's that would have made a great movie. It had science rap as the sountrack

ZachSylvanus:: The patriot acts are ostensibly to protect our freedoms

ZachSylvanus:: And ourselves

howbloom:: our best alley right now in defending our freedoms from the patriot act

howbloom:: is a man who has bush by the balls

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I disagree, but sure hope I'm not wrong.

howbloom:: Pat Robertson, my old nemesis

Chris OConnor:: Pat deserves to be in prison

ZachSylvanus:: The Patriot Act 2 involves overturning Katz vs.....the federal government, I think

Johnny Neuron:: Really Howard? How so?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just tell people Ashcroft ordered a buttload of microchips

ZachSylvanus:: er, think

Sephirah Geburah:: - Howard - If you could give one piece of advice for someone seriously entering the music industry, what would it be?

Chris OConnor:: anyone who dumbs down the general population is a criminal

howbloom:: Pat Robertson made two key statements a month or two ago

howbloom:: one

Jeremy1952:: That's the other thing that scares the shit out of me; suppose we win the peace as well as the war... but have

howbloom:: look at the violence in the Koran, stop papering it over

pctacitus:: arrest all the teachers then

howbloom:: and two

Jeremy1952:: turned into a theocracy by then

cinnamon321:: I agree Chris.

NaddiaAoC:: Yeah, the general population is dumb enough.

howbloom:: our civil rights have never been in greater danger

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, I am worried about that too

ZachSylvanus:: Howard, that's not really a viable argument

Johnny Neuron:: Look at all the violence in the Bible

Jeremy1952:: If we destroy our liberties to win a war, what have we won?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the bit of poetry at the end of your attraction page is verra nice

howbloom:: we must protect them for all we're worth

Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon

howbloom:: yes, the bible is one of the most violent books around

ZachSylvanus:: We can't argue that they're evil because of their bible

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I very much agree

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want an army of mimes at my disposal

ZachSylvanus:: Ours isn't any better

pctacitus:: there is a book on the Battles of the Bible

cinnamon321:: The general population is ignorant, not stupid

howbloom:: so is the founding story of western civilization--the Iliad and the Odyssey

Chris OConnor:: lol Michael

howbloom:: and so is the founding story of inida

howbloom:: the Mahavarata

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I've only read some of both

pctacitus:: don't forget Hesiod Howard

howbloom:: all are filled with genocide

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you maintain control in a fluid chaotic system?

howbloom:: with the demonization of other human beings

Johnny Neuron:: Howard: how do you feel about the posturing the US is taking in
relation to the other great powers such as Germany, France and Russia?

Chris OConnor:: Julian James posits that our species lacked consciousness at the time of both pieces

Jeremy1952:: I've found cascade works well, Michael

howbloom:: systems are hierarchical at every level of the cosmos

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to get at the root of projecting evil in all people...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jeremy--explain

howbloom:: animate and pre-animate

Chris OConnor:: yes

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm quite hestitant to call Pat Roberston an ally of mine. I think he's got other things moving him...Things I'd personally not want around me.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what cascade are we initiating exactly?

ZachSylvanus:: afk a few minutes....

howbloom:: and right now we need what some of you guys have said

Jeremy1952:: To control a chaotic fluid system. Pour in a little cascade.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the end-timers scare me in general

Chris OConnor:: what was that?

howbloom:: the craziest niggah on the block

Chris OConnor:: hmmm

howbloom:: the alpha male

Chris OConnor:: ahh

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cascade bleach? lol

howbloom:: on a global basis

Chris OConnor:: explain Howard

howbloom:: so we can continue an incredible progress we've made

NaddiaAoC:: Me too, Michael.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when rock stars rule the world, we'll be fine

howbloom:: via cell phones and the WWW

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: politicians trying to be rock stars doesn't work for me

howbloom:: we are so global it's amazing

howbloom:: and we're about to become even more so

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I got a book called Smart Mobs...need to read that

Chris OConnor:: Howard - if we could conquer the barbarians our species could do incredible things...ohh..and also conquer mysticism

howbloom:: my friends who marched for peace a week ago

cinnamon321:: *laughs at the thought of a politician trying to be a rock star*

Jeremy1952:: Yea! David Bowie for president! Vote for Clinton 'cause he plays the sax

howbloom:: were amazed and exalted

howbloom:: by the fact that they were marching simultaneously in 60 cities

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon, they DO. Politicians use PR consultants who study what makes entertainers popular...then they apply that to themselves.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - mob mentality

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nodding at howard

howbloom:: they were living off the fruit that hierarchical violence produces

howbloom:: peace

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the premise of Smart Mobs

howbloom:: relax the hierarchy too greatly

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: groups organizing spontaneously

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Jeremy

Chris OConnor:: Bloom - wow...excellent point

howbloom:: and we will have an end to cell phones the www electricity

howbloom:: social organization

cinnamon321:: Michael, I know, I was merely having a thought of the stereotypical poltician in kiss garb singing.

howbloom:: stores and groceries

howbloom:: let me tell you the worst case scenario

howbloom:: or one of them

pctacitus:: ok

howbloom:: oki?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was wondering for a while if the species has some kind of spontaneous organizing program that causes a breaking open of the tribal identity and a larger sense of family

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok

howbloom:: you are Osama

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol

ZombieHatesYou:: I knew Michael was Osama.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm in complete agreement. I'm a bit of a pessimist though...and fear we will never succeed in controlling the rampant idiocy of the masses. I feel our downfall is inevitable

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: no, don't go blowing anything up for me thanks

howbloom:: you know that you are building your stardom, your influence

howbloom:: via pr

ladyfractal joined

ladyfractal:: Good evening all!

howbloom:: and you know that the biggest pr stunt you've pulled

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi fractal

Johnny Neuron:: I tend to agree Chris

ZombieHatesYou:: Hey Frac

howbloom:: is the destruction of the world trade center

cinnamon321:: hey frac

howbloom:: ok?

pctacitus:: yes

howbloom:: following this?

pctacitus:: yes

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he wants a revolution in pakistan

Chris OConnor:: ok

ladyfractal:: Hey Michael! Hey Zombie.

Chris OConnor:: I'm with ya

howbloom:: your next step is this

Chris OConnor:: Hey Ladyfractal

Jeremy1952:: Howard is expoinding "worst case scenario", fractal

ladyfractal:: Hi Chris.

howbloom:: nuke twelve major cities in the united states

ladyfractal:: thanks jeremy.

NaddiaAoC:: Hi Lady

howbloom:: basically eliminate the usa

Chris OConnor:: Howard - we would be in the Dark Ages overnight

howbloom:: turn it into a glowing wasteland to set an example

howbloom:: to show that you are Osama the Great

howbloom:: that God is all powerful

Chris OConnor:: And this "worst case scenario" is a very real possibility

pctacitus:: that would crash the world economy overnight

howbloom:: and that nonbelievers should tremble at your feet

Chris OConnor:: pctactus - very true

Johnny Neuron:: Israeli newspapers reported this morning that Osama bin Laden has been captured

pctacitus:: kill tens of millions

howbloom:: you do not have to worry about nuclear fallout or nuclear winter

howbloom:: why?

Sephirah Geburah:: Ha! That could never happen! We where promised to have a missle defense shield! (hehe... Yes, im being sarcastic)

ladyfractal:: johnny: that hasn't been confirmed anyplace

Jeremy1952:: if he could have done it, he would have done it. No way he would have settled for jet fuel if he could have gotten hold of nukes

howbloom:: because you have Allah on your side

Johnny Neuron:: lady: true

howbloom:: and to quote one of Osama's alleys, this earth

Chris OConnor:: Johnny - Hmm...I'll believe that wheh I see his head on a stake

howbloom:: is a mere speck of dust in Allah's eye

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alternatively: you are a fundamentalist Christian with the best of motives...things get sticky and you feel compelled to use a nuclear first strike...

howbloom:: it is expendable

pctacitus:: if you die you go to paradise anyway

howbloom:: next step

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as believe the right wing christians...God will give us a new earth

pctacitus:: right?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - You're making me want to read the Koran/Quran

howbloom:: in Islam these days the big subject of conversation is the reconquest of Europe

Chris OConnor:: ...just to understand

howbloom:: you see, God promised that Islam would triumph

howbloom:: in two major places

Jeremy1952:: Yea, the difference, as Michael implied, is that Bush actually has nukes

ladyfractal:: howard-- how dangerous do you think it is that all three monotheistic faiths seem to be driving all-out for war and *at least* two of those three have nukes?

howbloom:: Constantinople and Rome

Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the Koran clearly states that conquest of infidels is Islams destiny

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: book religions really poisoned the planet...I keep telling them it's idolatry...but they just...don't...lisetn

AvatarofPower joined

Chris OConnor:: Avatar!

Chris OConnor:: Welcome

howbloom:: it took 700 years before the prediction about constantinople fell, but allah came through, right?

ladyfractal:: michael: no, of course not, they're too busy reading their holy books

AvatarofPower:: hiya chris

howbloom:: and now allah is bound to deliver Rome

howbloom:: which means all of Europe

howbloom:: nuke the us and

howbloom:: europe will capitulate

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this allah character needs therapy

DocNancy:: Howard, you need to write all this down and publish it.

howbloom:: it will beg for surivival

Jeremy1952:: Osama is one dangerous sonofabtich. Terrorists are an infection on the planet. No argument there... so

pctacitus:: we need to pull a St Jerome and we write the religious texts then

howbloom:: and be willing to live in justic and purity

howbloom:: according to god's law sharia

Jeremy1952:: we should be fighting terrorists, not picking a target we think we can hit, and ignoring the enemy.

howbloom:: and as part of an islamic imperium that's global

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: women will be forced to veil their nipples in public (

Johnny Neuron:: Howard: not all Muslims would agree with these tactics

howbloom:: here's another important bit of Osama's thinking

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Girls Gone Wild will be a thing of the past...

Johnny Neuron:: Some are far more liberal and peaceful than that

howbloom:: nation states are a barbarous western creation

Johnny Neuron:: Dare I say most

howbloom:: god says that the umma is universal

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: empathy is universal

howbloom:: it is a continuous planet

howbloom:: a planet without boundaries

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it is a conscious planet

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - don't you think Saddam has something planned with his WoMD?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: osama is on to something

ladyfractal:: howard: Oh I see where this is going...which means a Pax Islam

howbloom:: living under God's own law

Jeremy1952:: Don't know, Chris.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, a trapped animal will do some crazy things

howbloom:: national boundaries separating afghanistan, egypt, syria, malaysia, these are artificial slices

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Bush is unconsciously trying to provoke attacks against us

howbloom:: designed to weakine the ummah

howbloom:: in other worlds Osama

Jeremy1952:: I think the message should be this: use one, try to use one, and you get slapped like a mosquito

Johnny Neuron:: I think the key might be for the US to allign with the more moderate side of the Muslim world

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: use a nuke to kill a mosquito and you may face impeachment

howbloom:: osama's interpretation of Islam makes the world one global caliphate

howbloom:: Osama, the wireless warrior

pctacitus:: what moderate side?

Jeremy1952:: But the message that we attack regardless?

howbloom:: has a clear, clear vision

howbloom:: of a global new world order

pctacitus:: Where is it?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in a species unconscious program that will overrule the divisions of nations and religions...but whether that can stop destruction is another thing

pctacitus:: I haven't seen it.

Sephirah Geburah:: Damnit... Why in the hell cant we have people like Howard for President?!?!? (sigh)

Johnny Neuron:: There is definately a moderate portion of Muslims who are opposed to terrorism

howbloom:: so we have the choices of living under an islamic hegemony, one in which most of us here would be dead

Johnny Neuron:: I've talked with some of them

howbloom:: and pax amercana

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Saddam is a sick bastard who has lined up his own people and gunned them down....and poisoneed them

Jeremy1952:: Oh my god, Sephirah, no way!

Johnny Neuron:: Some are US allies

howbloom:: or a pax sinica

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the limbic systems of the world are feeding back

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Sephirah

ladyfractal:: howard: Laid out like that, it certainly seems to be a very clear vision. I have a question for you...

Sephirah Geburah:: hehe

pctacitus:: like Saudi arabia?

howbloom:: and those of us who try to stop this war as we did in 1905

Jeremy1952:: Yes, Chris, this is true.

Jeremy1952:: And?

howbloom:: and in 1936

howbloom:: will have blood on our hands

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - we owe it to the Iraqi people to remove the tyrant

Jeremy1952:: Oh bullshit.

Johnny Neuron:: So you are for a war with Iraq Howard?

howbloom:: the blood of between 200 million and six billion human beings

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's a moral inversion though...the ones who kill are heroes and the ones who don't kill are killers...

howbloom:: that's my speech, now let me read what you

howbloom:: 've been saying

ladyfractal:: howard: okay

Chris OConnor:: Ladyfractal - what was the question?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we trigger something just as bad as what we're trying to avoid? we'll have blood on our hands then too

Jeremy1952:: There are dictators all over the world; we've defended much worse, time and again.

howbloom:: I know Jeremy is going to totally disagree

NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Are you saving this chat periodically?

Chris OConnor:: Micahel - should we freeze out of fear?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if the lessons we're learning from history fail to work in a global system that approaches viscosity?

Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - yep, no worries

ladyfractal:: chris: well, my first question has to do with the three monotheistic religions, two of which are *confirmed* members of the nuclear club goign to war.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: linear thinking may not be the trick here

NaddiaAoC:: Ok good

howbloom:: To answer Johnny's question yes, bring on this war as rapidly as possible

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be playing chess on a Go board

howbloom:: despite the fact that I hate war

cinnamon321:: according to mass media reports i see that iraqis do not like saddams leadership, but since he is a dictator many of them fear to speak out unless they leave the country. perhaps if we do not go to war they will overthrow saddam themselves.

Johnny Neuron:: I agree

howbloom:: no killing of a single human being is justified

ZachSylvanus:: back, sorry

howbloom:: Saddam is a distraction, an example, that's all

Jeremy1952:: To say "war on iraq is good for iraqis" ignores the little detail of the 100,000 or more of them who will DIE in the war.

ladyfractal:: chris: My second question has to do with with people in the West not understanding that Islam is a *fundamentally* different culture/civilization and not one most of us would feel good living under.

Johnny Neuron:: But I feel that the US must do it's best to not make this a "war against Muslims"

DocNancy:: yes, but how does oil enter into all this, and it does.

Jeremy1952:: If they wanted to die, they could oppose Saddam themselves

ladyfractal:: chris: but I'll hold that one

Johnny Neuron:: Boundries must be set; demarcations made

howbloom:: hang on a second, let's discuss the iraqis who will di

Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - the problem is every time a coup is attempted Saddam makes such an example of the perpetrators that the whole nation lives in mortal fear of even appearing to be anti-Saddam

ZombieHatesYou:: Perhaps I am not following this like I should be, but I'm not sure how bringing on the war with Iraq as fast as possible will in turn harm Osama's 'vision.'

howbloom:: saddam has deliberately put his weapons under schools and hospitals

howbloom:: one story out of England says that he hired

AvatarofPower:: Jeremy.... how could they possibly stand up to the current iraqi regime

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so will the arab world blame us for civilian deaths?

howbloom:: western experts to build a subway system under baghdad and is using it to

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - But 100,000 dead now to save 4 million in the long run. I'm not saying I agree, but I think this is Howards point

ladyfractal:: michael: you *bet* they will

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will the iraqis really be "dancing in the street"?

Jeremy1952:: Well, they can't. I'm not saying they should. I'm saying, they'll be just as dead if we kill them

howbloom:: shuttle his weapons of mass destruction around on trains

ZombieHatesYou:: Of course, Michael...We're the Big Bad Guy...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--but how accurate IS that math?

Johnny Neuron:: What are the chances of the US using nuclear weapons against Iraq?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will we become the evil we fear? will our culture survive that?

AvatarofPower:: very, very, very, very slim, Johnny

howbloom:: a contact of mine in the State Department, an Islam expert who has spent most of his adult life in Islamic nations

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moral ambiguity broke a lot of heads open in the 60's

Jeremy1952:: The thing is, chris, the 100,000 dead now is almost a sure thing; the assertiion that less willdie in the long run

Chris OConnor:: Michael - Approximately 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot

howbloom:: says that the bomb shelter filled with civilians we devastated

cinnamon321:: lol Chris

Jeremy1952:: with the war than without it is extremely uncertain

howbloom:: was a cover for the bunkers below

ladyfractal:: johnny: depends upon whether or not the Iraqi military uses them on US troops and how serious teh casualties are from such an attack.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about what our actions will do to our culture. The "culture wars" could become volatile.

howbloom:: can I throw in another fact about the ultimate Osama scenario?

pctacitus:: ok

Sephirah Geburah:: Yep!

howbloom:: which can happen with or without osama

Chris OConnor:: Please do

howbloom:: pakistan

howbloom:: has the Islamic bomb

ladyfractal:: johnny: if the Iraqis use them and if there are high casualties, US doctrine
dictates answering WoMD in kind

Chris OConnor:: Islamis bomb?

Chris OConnor:: Hmmm

howbloom:: the nuclear bomb all Islam feels is God's gift

Chris OConnor:: thats punny

howbloom:: to the Islamic world, not just to one country

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to arrest this God/Allah

howbloom:: Pakistan also has

howbloom:: three submarines

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree

howbloom:: very special submarines

NaddiaAoC:: Michael: I agree, but I think you'll have a problem finding big enough handcuffs.

ZachSylvanus:: What's your point?

howbloom:: stealth submarines, next generation submarines

Chris OConnor:: Nuke subs?

ladyfractal:: michael: would LOVE to go back and time and slap whoever thought up monotheism upside their foolish head

ZachSylvanus:: It's an arms race, Howard, you should know that

ZachSylvanus:: Keep up or fall behind

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mentioned these scenarios before...I'm wondering what the rest of us chess pieces should be doing in the midst of this global chess/go game?

howbloom:: built with French technology

ZachSylvanus:: It's merely an evolution of civilizations

howbloom:: and it has the shipyard to build more

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, monotheists don't play well with others

ZachSylvanus:: Nobody wants to be the losing party, giving in to selection

howbloom:: these are missile carriers and pakistan also has

howbloom:: medium range ballistic missiles

howbloom:: now imagine that Osam is dead or arrested

Chris OConnor:: Howard - are you proposing we add Pakistan to the "Axis of Evil?"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most of us won't be able to influence all this very much...but what kinds of things can we do with our little bit of the superorganism?

howbloom:: and you are a fierce Osama

Chris OConnor:: Ok

howbloom:: fan

howbloom:: a protege

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--they will after Musharraf gets assassinated

ladyfractal:: howard: are you saying that it is no longer a question of "if" but a question of "when" the united states has a city evaporated?

Jeremy1952:: (the very protege that the U.S. helped him recruit, but I digress)

howbloom:: you lead his wireless warriors in something that is likely to happen any day now

NaddiaAoC:: Monotheism is like King of the Hill. My God can beat up your god.

howbloom:: the overthrow of Pervez Musharref

Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - you're right though

howbloom:: you now have three subs with 10,000 mile ranges

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: monotheism ate my homework

howbloom:: you can now nuke any city in America

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Michael

Johnny Neuron:: Forgive my skeptical ide: but this is the "ultimate" Osama scenario...not the likely scenario; Pakistan remains a strong US ally

howbloom:: either from the Atlantic coast

Chris OConnor:: 10k is long enough to hit anywhere from the oceans

howbloom:: or from the pacific coast

howbloom:: yes

ladyfractal:: johnny: strong is not the word that I think I would use

Chris OConnor:: 27k is world circumference I believe

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I say we nuke our own cities in defiance.

Sephirah Geburah:: Michaelangelo! You bring up a great question of "What can we do" I suggest we base a long term forum discusion around that.... There are so many beautiful and powerful minds gathered on this website... We just need to establish some goals and focus...

Chris OConnor:: Michael - omg

howbloom:: and Osams says "we love death more than you love life"

Jeremy1952:: And I think it supports my side more than howards anyway... to show that other countries are dangerous; yes;

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree seph

howbloom:: you westerners are degenerates

Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...this scares the shit out of me

Johnny Neuron:: It was Pakistani officials that brought in the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks

howbloom:: you turn your women into prosititutes

Jeremy1952:: that is exactly why we have to play nice... why we have to promote cooperation

howbloom:: you let them parade their legs on the streets

howbloom:: and you are foolish

ladyfractal:: johnny: Musharref is playing a very cagey political game because he thinks it will keep him in power and give him some legs against the Indians

NaddiaAoC:: LMAO Michael. You're a nut!

howbloom:: you only have two or three children per family

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in the middle of all these worst case scenarios, I'd like to at least play some fun games with culture

howbloom:: we treat our women properly

Sephirah Geburah:: I feel so helpless as much as I care about these issues...

Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - you have the ability to create a thread about anything you want...and I think we would all like to discuss this further

ladyfractal:: johnny: But Pakistan is an ally of convenience

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we treat our women properly ?

howbloom:: we veil them and keep them in the home

cinnamon321:: IMHO the problem that people have is lack of exposure to other cultures. I think if more individuals were exposed to people of different cultures and had positive experiences we wouldn't have as many problems.

howbloom:: we free them from indecency

Johnny Neuron:: But an ally nonthesless

Chris OConnor:: (Now how do we get Howard to pop in once and awhile and post? hmmm)

ladyfractal:: howard; shouldn't that be "we treat women like *property*"

pctacitus:: The horror and the implacable nature of the Wars of Religion was not only that the soldiers on each side believed Heaven awaited them if they fell in battle, they also believed that they owed it to their adversaries to send them to hell. - Ernle
Bradford, The Great Siege: Malta 1565

howbloom:: and we make them pregnant just as god wants them to be

Sephirah Geburah:: neat! I will do so

Jeremy1952:: Mabye it would be worse, cinnamon.

Sephirah Geburah:: hehe

AvatarofPower:: exactly Johnny... i think there's a serious differnece between the Islamic Fundamentalist world and the more moderate muslims

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard will be magnetically attracted to our group, he cannot resist

Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I totally agree!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he will be assimilated

howbloom:: so we have four wives with severn children each

Jeremy1952:: Maybe if the west new how fucked up islamic culture really is, there'd be more hate crimes

Johnny Neuron:: Avatar: Thank you!

Johnny Neuron:: A huge difference

howbloom:: and every mother who believes in Allah is willing to sacrifice three of her children

howbloom:: as martyrs for Allah

Sephirah Geburah:: hehehehe and our western culture ISNT f*cked up?!

AvatarofPower:: BUT... that differernce has the potential to rapidly disappear

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, have you read any of DeMause's stuff?

Jeremy1952:: Yea, the moderates who hack children's vaginas up with dullknives

Johnny Neuron:: When we slip into the fundamentalist mindset, I worry

ladyfractal:: jeremy: that isn't going to happen suga'...most college educated
Westerners have NO sense of what they are apart of or what they are tearing down

howbloom:: more than willing, she celibratses the victory of their death

ZombieHatesYou:: I think when we denounce such things as how the Muslims "treat their women," we are falling into the same trap that we are saying we despise about *them.*

howbloom:: so if we nuke you and you retaliate, it will be useless

cinnamon321:: Jeremy, Islamic culture is fucked up to us because we didnt grow up with it. American culture is fucked up to Muslims who know nothing about it.

AvatarofPower:: the moderates who hack childern's penises up, what?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I heard of an interesting program that connects Israelis and Palestinians by phone

howbloom:: wipe out afghanistan, we don't care

howbloom:: we can afford to lose 200 million to 400 million people

Jeremy1952:: The lovely arabs who murder rape victims and celebrate the rapists

ladyfractal:: jeremy: when you have college-educated Westerners, decrying the Enlightenment and saying that scientific rationalism is just *one* in a number of equally valid ways of viewing the world, you know we're in trouble

howbloom:: in order to assert god's will

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so we threaten to nuke mecca, right?

DocNancy left

howbloom:: and to do what he has ordered us to

Johnny Neuron:: Nuke Mecca? Come on

howbloom:: torture you and annihilate you

Jeremy1952:: I reject your relativism, cinnamon. there are specific actions which are wrong.

howbloom:: two words he has used in the Koran

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - good point

cinnamon321:: Not all Arabs do. There are more liberal Arabs in many places.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, some consultant close to Bush once talked about nuking mecca

howbloom:: any person who does not abide by those two words is a slacker

howbloom:: Allah will never forgive

howbloom:: allah demands that you fight and kill on his behalf

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send internet porn to the Islamic world and expose fundamentalist muslims who download it

howbloom:: those who stay behind and wait

pctacitus:: such a kind deity

howbloom:: for the West to topple of its own might

ZachSylvanus:: No less kind than any deity of our own history

ZombieHatesYou:: So, I think I've got this now. This is a matter of God. They think they have God on their sides...that God will protect them. So they have no fear. Nothing we can do to them is going to deter them. Allah demands they kill the infidel...

howbloom:: will be damend and will never see the fruits of paradise

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the knights of the crusades killed to gain forgiveness

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will do anything to feel pure

Johnny Neuron:: But Howard...among all three great monotheisms you have your right wingers and your left wingers....the left wingers have always been in a minority

howbloom:: ok, now let me read your thoughts for a bit

cinnamon321:: I do agree that they way rape victims are treated in certain Middle Eastern areas is wrong, I just think a lot of Arabs probably think it is too.

howbloom:: I've been typing my fingers off

ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand the point you are making...but I have to say that I disagree with it. It *may* be utterly imperialist for me to believe that women have a right to self-determination, but I cannot back down off of that ideal.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: let's all convert to islam.

Sephirah Geburah:: I remember reading a sobering exerpt in the Lucifer Principle about the Islam culture, and the sleeping giant that it is... When do you believe this giant will wake up, stretch his arms, and get some breakfast?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: then we can assimilate them

ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: I'm not saying I agree with how they treat their women. I am just saying that denouncing that at every turn and insisting you are the same thing they are doing.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--when we appear weakened

Johnny Neuron:: I'm not ready to brandish the Muslim world, en toto, as extremists like Bin Laden

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I am very curious if you see in Christianity that same problems that you see in Islam...

ZombieHatesYou:: We are no better than they are. It's just our ass on the line, so we must fight for what *we* think is right.

howbloom:: the giant has awakened

AvatarofPower:: Sephirah, that giant is going to wake up and realize that maybe an arm, and a foot, and a few other parts are sick and tired of its bullshit, I think...

Chris OConnor:: Howard - or is it a matter of "degree?"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I woudln't brand Germans as evil...their culture just went through a crazy phase. Right now, the islamic cultures and our culture are both in a weird phase

ladyfractal:: zombie: Hmmm...perhaps.

Jeremy1952:: Of course we are better, Zombie

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm just trying to point out that while we believe they are wrong...they believe *we* are wrong. So how are we any better?

howbloom:: and is getting its strength day by day

ZombieHatesYou:: It's equal.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our own fundamentalists may act up

Sephirah Geburah:: I hope Avatar

cinnamon321:: I agree Micheal

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: No. I don't think so.

Johnny Neuron:: Good point Michael

Jeremy1952:: Because they really ARE wrong, zombie.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the giant is Islam?

howbloom:: look, Zombie

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But they don't think they are wrong. Just like we don't think we are wrong. Do you see what I am getting at?

howbloom:: I can speak osama speak because within his framework of belief he is right

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make some muslim entertainers famous so nobody will want to see them die

howbloom:: he is not just right

howbloom:: he is courageous

Jeremy1952:: Yes, but you are wrong.

howbloom:: he is heroic

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.

howbloom:: he is probably the greatest idealist on this planet today

ladyfractal:: zombie: okay, I don't think its equal because they are, in fact, going against a principle of universal...truly universal...human rights. If I understand it correctly, MOST Islamic nations do not allow women to vote and do not see women as human enough to vote

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: inside osama is a screaming infant who wants his mommy to forgive hi8m

Jeremy1952:: The wholesale repression of women is wrong. It isn't relativist. It isn't negotiable.

howbloom:: he is willing to give up his life for what he believes in

ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Allah says that is the way it works.

ladyfractal:: zombie: Our culture went through it and our culture was *wrong* at that point.

cinnamon321:: Shakira is part Arabic, I think but everyone sees her as a Latina and she is marketed that way.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm willing to give up his life too

Jeremy1952:: One memeber of the species does not have the right to opress and kill the other gender

howbloom:: but if that means the death of free speech, equal rights for women, toleran, pluralism

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I do see your point.

howbloom:: cell phones

howbloom:: and computers for the masses

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you kill cell phones?

Jeremy1952:: So: they think we are wrong for pluralism. We are right, and they are wrong.

howbloom:: then I am willing to make a moral jusgement

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that cat's out of the bag

howbloom:: and defend the way of life I beieve in

howbloom:: period

Johnny Neuron:: So what is the solution Howard? Or IS there a solution?

Jeremy1952:: Oh shit, now me and howard are agreeing.

AvatarofPower:: hehe

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, what would you say we ordinary folks can do collectively aside from cheering Bush on?

Chris OConnor:: LOL

ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand what you are saying...but I cannot be a relativist when it comes to issues like viewing women as full-human beings. I just cannot see how there is room to negotiate on that matter.

howbloom:: if I were living in Osama's world I would never be allowe to think and write

ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not saying I am against this war business. I just want people to recognize what it's really about.

Jeremy1952:: Actually at a deeper level I think we do pretty much agree... it is tactics, not objectivs, where we differ.

howbloom:: this discussion would not be happening

howbloom:: and none of us would be waht we are today

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the solution is for boundaries to dissolve and a great sacrifice to show humanity why it's impossible to impose boundaries on an emergent system

Jeremy1952:: Now wait just a minute, Michael.

howbloom:: trying with all our might to contribute through our discusions, our brainstorming and our disagreements

Johnny Neuron:: And compromise?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or just for people to organize and communicate across boundaries until they understand the Beast

howbloom:: the the betterment of humahnity

Chris OConnor:: Howard - you should come speak at the Atheist Alliance convention here in FL in april - Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins will be there. Your views on Islam would make for an incredible presentation

ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Obviously I view women as 'full human beings.' You know me. I'm always blaring about something or another. And no, I do not agree with the way the Muslim women are treated. I just think it would be better all around if people realized that *everyone* thinks they are right when it comes to this stuff.

Jeremy1952:: Where would we be if protozoans hand't imposed boundaries on their genomes?

AvatarofPower:: its called a Unified Human Intelligence, Michael

ZachSylvanus:: Howard, need I remind you that in the Islamic world, it nurtured and advanced the learning of Greece and Rome for six hundred years, until our own culture forcefully took it from them?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think westerners and arabs need to communicate on a human level as well as a strategic level

ZombieHatesYou:: Whether they are *actually* right about the issue is neither here nor there.

ladyfractal:: zombie: Okay, I see your point

AvatarofPower:: and we're working on it...

ZombieHatesYou:: 'tay.

howbloom:: Chris--I was invited to one atheist symposium

howbloom:: but I

ladyfractal:: zombie: I'm sorry I thought you were arguing a slightly different point than the one you were making

Jeremy1952:: Zombie, we KNOW everyone thinks they are right. That's why it comes
down to tactics. We need to WIN

Johnny Neuron:: Zach: these are different times, different interests

ZachSylvanus:: agreed

Chris OConnor:: Howard - they probably cannot afford you

Johnny Neuron:: different Muslims

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the boundaries dissolve inside so that you can understand how to prevent them from dissolving outside

howbloom:: I've been housebound with illness for fifteen years

howbloom:: and do all my appearances via video

howbloom:: or electronic means

Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow...I didn't know.

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But while you are so hellbent on winning, do you see why they are so hellbent on winning?

Jeremy1952:: I'm not opposed to the war because it is morally wrong, I'm opposed because it is TACTICALLY wrong.

howbloom:: they weren't up for that

ZachSylvanus:: It's not the religion that is against learning, etc., it's the leaders
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MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: reality is too slow, I like internet

ZombieHatesYou:: I never said this war was morally wrong.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I never meet anyone interesting offline

howbloom:: to address the issue of Moslems who disagree with Osama

ZachSylvanus:: Leaders that have taken power much like Germany and Hitler, because of the way in which the Islamic countries have developed

Jeremy1952:: I'm hellbent on winning BECAUSE they are hellbent on winning. If they were willing to live and let live, so would I!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this war is morally ambiguous

howbloom:: in the Islamic world, as in Hitler's German world

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those who can survive moral ambiguity without going insane will have something to offer

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.

howbloom:: they are not allowed to speak their mind

Jeremy1952:: Nope, nope, I didn't mean to imply that you did, Zombie. That was more of a general statement

Chris OConnor:: Howard - if you have any interest in making a video presentation at this convention I would be happy to help you with it....I know the people in charge

AvatarofPower:: mich: exactly... the internet... universal computer networking is the key to that increase in communication that you're talking about

howbloom:: the leaders of moderate pluralist subcultures have been killed

ZachSylvanus:: I agree that if it comes down to it, I would rather see them paying the price than us, but I'd rather not think that we're at such a dead end as to be left with that as our only choice

howbloom:: nearly every writer who has gotten out of line has literally been murdered

ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay. I know you think I'm wrong...but do you at least see my point, even if you don't agree with it?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send bullet proof vests to moderate islamic writers

howbloom:: my friends in Islam, the pluralists and moderists I meet with in this bedroom

Jeremy1952:: Yes

ZachSylvanus:: Much as those who spoke out against Hitler

howbloom:: have no voice

pctacitus:: remember rushdie anyone?

howbloom:: no spokesmen

ZombieHatesYou:: That's all I really want....for people to see each other's points, even if we don't agree.

Jeremy1952:: Actually when you rephrased your position, I think I agreed.

ladyfractal:: zach; I'm not sure that we're *not* at that far as I can tell, the Islamic facists are *not* interested in compromising with the West

AvatarofPower:: being able to link directly to a person's mind and thoughts breaks down all the barriers of WHAT a human is and brings forward WHO that human is

howbloom:: they are free to speak because they are here in America, not back home in Bangla Desh or Pakistan

howbloom:: we need to free them to speak

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree, Avatar

howbloom:: which is something I'm working on

Johnny Neuron left

ladyfractal:: howard: have you read Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make them fall in love with us through media

ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Do you feel justified in compromising at the blade of a sword?

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Glory Matthews left

cinnamon321:: wb Johnny

ZachSylvanus:: Because essentially we're asking aquiescence with a knife at their throats

ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Yes, MTV will bring them over.

AvatarofPower:: or at least understand us...

howbloom:: I agree with Huntington's idea

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we are the world's entertainers...

howbloom:: yes, this is the biggest choice point of history

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howbloom:: any of us will see in our lives

Jeremy1952:: Well boys and girls, men and women, your honor, members of the jury; if I am to have ANY chance at sex tomorrow, I'd better

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe musicians need to have a video dialogue with Islam

ZachSylvanus:: It's a large choice point in history, but I wouldn't say the biggest

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Springsteen sings "Please don't kill us"

Jeremy1952:: go spend some time with my lovely wife, who is at this very moment feeling abandoned

ladyfractal:: zach: Perhaps...although I'm not sure.

howbloom:: if we mistreat it and make the wrong decisions we may well determine the fate of many generations down the line

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AvatarofPower:: lol... enjoy yoursef, Jeremy

Sephirah Geburah:: Thanks for your time Jeremy! You are fun to read.

ZombieHatesYou:: 'Night, Jer.

ZachSylvanus:: It's the same choice every set of clashing cultures must make

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: night jer

Chris OConnor:: Night Jeremy

ZachSylvanus:: Night Jeremy

howbloom:: jeremy, g'night

Glory Matthews:: night Jer

cinnamon321:: night jer

Jeremy1952:: See y'all next time! Howard, thanks 1,000,000 for coming back, in spite of nags like me

Jeremy1952:: : )

ladyfractal:: howard: I'm not sure I fully agreed with Huntington. although he invokes you at the end of his book, talking about how Westerners need to recognize that we are part of Western civilization

AvatarofPower:: true, zach... but its the biggest one *we'll* see

howbloom:: thank you, jer

Chris OConnor:: Howard - how often do you make video presentations?

Jeremy1952 left

ZachSylvanus:: Possibly

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm part of a species organism, it's not western or american

ZachSylvanus:: But to claim it's the Biggest in History is to bastardize cultures that have come before

howbloom:: video presentations?

ladyfractal:: michael: yes, you are...but at the same time, you really *are* a Westerner

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: whatever I'm part of, it's emerging globally and not in one place

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--I'm IN the West

howbloom:: easy, when someone wnats to hire me to give a speech in Amsterdam

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not necessarily identified with it

howbloom:: they send a videographer

Chris OConnor:: Howard - you said you do presentations by video

howbloom:: and we tape it

Chris OConnor:: Ahh

howbloom:: or we do it live via telephone

ladyfractal:: michael: your mindset is very different, I think, than someone from Chinese or Islamic civilization

ladyfractal:: michael: your grounding assumptions, I think, are different

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady, I'm sure there are people like me over there

howbloom:: doing it live via webcam is something I've done but it's primitive at best

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know I have counterparts

Chris OConnor:: A video would be the best method

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there is a me in Iran, a me in China etc

howbloom:: it is so far

howbloom:: michael

AvatarofPower:: heh... talk to Steve Mann

howbloom:: what you're saying is right

Chris OConnor:: I don't think the Atheist Alliance has much of a budget

howbloom:: so very right

howbloom:: but the you in Iraq or the you in Indonesia

ladyfractal:: michael: Oh, I'm sure that there are people in other civilizations who are more like Westerners than of other cultures. Hell, you know me, I practice a Japanese interpretation of an originally hindu there's cross-fertilization

howbloom:: doesn't have the freedom to be you

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the me in Iraq is hiding in a basemenet

howbloom:: so much so that, get this

Chris OConnor:: Michael - true

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: of course, I'm in a basement

howbloom:: the intellectual hear to the Islamic world is Egypt

ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I'll let you out next week...maybe.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb

ZombieHatesYou:: -.o

howbloom:: Do you know how many new books are published in Cairo every year

Sephirah Geburah:: How many?!

howbloom:: in the whole nation of Egypt?

howbloom:: 300

AvatarofPower:: million?

ladyfractal:: michael: But my *grounding* assumptions are very different....for instance, that I would turn away from the faith of my parents without too much thought of what they would think about it is, I think, very Western.

ZombieHatesYou:: Not very many, I'd wager...

Sephirah Geburah:: oh

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there really should be a way to connect people in Egypt etc. with people here

Sephirah Geburah:: sheesh

howbloom:: now let's look at Israel

howbloom:: it has a population less than a third of the city of Cairo

ladyfractal:: michael: you see my point?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a dating service, only for intellectuals

ZachSylvanus:: I think it's largely a matter of the audience available to read, as well...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or kids

howbloom:: wanna guess how many new books Israel publishes?

ladyfractal:: michael: that would be interesting

howbloom:: 4,000

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: get kids on different sides to communicate

pctacitus:: millions

ZombieHatesYou:: I've had close contact with some Egyptians fresh off the boat, as it were. They were completely horrified by me.

howbloom:: which means that the huge, enormours brainpower

Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats amazing

howbloom:: the extraordinary creativity of the Islamic world

ZachSylvanus:: What's the literacy rate of the Islamic world?

howbloom:: is being squashed

howbloom:: strangled

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: smooshed

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - why?

howbloom:: the literacy rate is low

ZachSylvanus:: And of Israel?

howbloom:: so is the standard of living

ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Why were they horrified by me?

Glory Matthews:: Zomba, yes, but all it takes is an average westerner to br horrified of one who thinks freely.

howbloom:: literacy rate in israel is high

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - yea

ZachSylvanus:: Standard of living?

AvatarofPower:: squelched, mashed, mushed and dashed

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can Israel survive?

howbloom:: the standard of living is the highest in the middle east

ladyfractal:: zach; the Israeli literacy rate is in the upper 90' most (non-American) Industrial nations

AvatarofPower:: butcherd, slaughtered, ripped up and smashed

howbloom:: if Israel does not survive I will be very very upset

AvatarofPower:: *bow*

ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Well, a few reasons...I had dyed red hair, a kid and I wasn't married, I smoke, I swear, I talk too much, and I was working a hard physical labor job.

ZachSylvanus:: So should we really be surprised that fewer books are published in a society where they're less useful?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if any population doesn't survive, I'll feel it

howbloom:: however it is living on the edge of a razor blade

Chris OConnor:: Wouldn't Israel be conquered in short order if the US were not supporting it?

howbloom:: barely haning in there

ZombieHatesYou:: They fluctuated between thinking I was the Whore of Babylon to being in love with me
ZachSylvanus:: not anymore, I don't think

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - LOL I gues that would do it

howbloom:: but remember once upon a time france supplied israel with all its jets

ZombieHatesYou:: Indeed.

ZombieHatesYou:: You know me. I' m brash.

howbloom:: then france sold out for arab oil

ZachSylvanus:: They've got enough technology and scientific research that I think they could probably hold their end up fairly well...

Chris OConnor:: hehe true

ladyfractal:: zach; the problem is that at one point, the Islamic world was THE most enlightened, scientific culture going...

howbloom:: and stopped selling weapons to israel

AvatarofPower:: 300 versus 4000 is a bit much, though, zach

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--oh there you go...get a bunch of western women to attract fundamentalist muslim men who are considered pillars of their community....then post the chat transcripts when they ask for cybersex

ladyfractal:: zach: then something seems to have gone terribly, terribly wrong

howbloom:: here's something else to consider

ZachSylvanus:: Not if the relationship in standard of living and literacy is very off

howbloom:: there are 1.2 billion moslems

ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Western civilization

ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Oh blah. :P

ladyfractal:: zach: ?

ZachSylvanus:: We've crushed them since we mounted the crusades

howbloom:: almost all of them agree that the jews are a curse on the planet

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MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Zombie--hey, it just might work

howbloom:: and that israel is an abomination

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could discredit the extremists

ZachSylvanus:: They were able to hold on very well, since they were in the middle of the spice road

ZombieHatesYou:: They think we are whores, Michael.

howbloom:: there are 5 million Israelis

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we know the islamic extremists are suckers for sex

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--exactly

ZachSylvanus:: And then our shipping routes pulled out the only economic advantage they had

howbloom:: do the arithmetic, who wins?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could out them

Chris OConnor:: Hey meme

Chris OConnor:: you're late!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we could resettle the Jews in Texas, I'm sure they'll assimilate just fine

ladyfractal:: michael: they *really* do...although what I've started doing on Yahoo is asking if Muslim women will chat about sex with any man who asks

cinnamon321:: I met someone from Iran once, and she says that there are practicing Jews there.

Meme Wars:: So did I miss the guest speaker?

howbloom:: Jews? in Texas?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: course I'm technically jewish and afraid of Texans so maybe not

ZombieHatesYou:: *giggles*

Chris OConnor:: Michael - you sure are filled with fancy ideas lol

ladyfractal:: michael: its AMAZING how quickly that shuts them up

howbloom:: we jews tend to be left wing liberals

Chris OConnor:: Meme - Howard Bloom is here now

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a bleeding heart handwringing liberal

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "handwringing" is the latest epithet

ladyfractal:: michael: Jews in Texas? Do they even ALLOW Jews in Texas? they don't eat bbq pork ribs.

howbloom:: about the only place in texas where we'd fit in is austin

howbloom:: the progressive capital of the state

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, Jews survive (somehow) in florida

howbloom:: actually there are jewish texans

AvatarofPower:: lol... i'm conservative.... for a hippy... which is to say moderately liberal

ZombieHatesYou:: This is driving me nuts. I want so much to be able to listen to what you all have to say, and my kids keep screaming at me. How frustrating.

howbloom:: kinky friedman

cinnamon321:: There's Jews everywhere hehe

ladyfractal:: howard: Austin is the ONLY part of Texas I'll actually cast a shadow

ZachSylvanus:: As opposed to the middle of the Islamic world, howard? :P

Meme Wars:: I had to do emergency work to my wife's postal jeep, so I missed out.

ladyfractal:: howard: sorry, I was being facetious

howbloom:: look, we jews have a problem

howbloom:: the irish have ireland

howbloom:: the french have france

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we humans have a problem

howbloom:: the english have england

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the christians have america

AvatarofPower:: we humans have a problem

AvatarofPower:: indeed, michael

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - being a single mom is rough

howbloom:: and we were tossed out of the postage stamp of land we once had

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the animists

ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I manage.

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I once was one.

howbloom:: in the same way that the french are wedded to the soil of france

Chris OConnor:: lol

howbloom:: we are wedded to the soil from which we came

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the buddhists have hollywood

howbloom:: god knows why

ZombieHatesYou:: A single mom? *quirks brow*

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't believe in being wedded to soil. I believe group identity is a narrative process

howbloom:: and god knows what instinctual thing supports the power of tribal memory

AvatarofPower:: howard... modern western cultures are absolutely removed from the land

ladyfractal:: howard: I hope you don't mind my saying this...but as a black woman, I almost envy Jews for having a Jerusalem

howbloom:: narratives are based on instinct

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't necessarily think so...

howbloom:: they swirl around instinctual points

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think there is an instinct to form groups

howbloom:: they are based on hierarchy games

Chris OConnor:: Lady - Wow...I can imagine you do

AvatarofPower:: its the culture that the people are attatched to... its the human constructions ON the land that modern western cultures are attached to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I don't know if jewishness is instinctual.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or any other "ishness"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think it's just grouping

Chris OConnor:: Lady - They have a place to call home

howbloom:: have you ever looked at Aristotelian plot structure from an instincual and evolutionary point of view?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jews have a narrative, Palestinians have a narrative

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they are both victim narratives

ZombieHatesYou:: My Zombishness is instinctual.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives are very similar

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they see each other as aliens, but they're brothers

ladyfractal:: chris: I have Jewish friends, I've gone to Passover saders and when I've heard "next year in Jerusalem" I understand what it *truly* means to have a land that is yours

howbloom:: the Palestinian narrative was started in the 1960s

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no land of my own

howbloom:: did you know that what is now called Jordan occupies

howbloom:: 75% of the territory once called Palestine

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: victims are victims, they generate a retro-narrative

ladyfractal:: brb

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can create a thousand years of narrative without there even being a reality to it

howbloom:: and do you know how palestinians are treated in that 75% of palestine

howbloom:: ?

howbloom:: do you know about black september?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Palestinians are the Jews of the Middle East, aside from the Jews

ZombieHatesYou:: What is that? Black September?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I don't know much of the history of that region...and should read up on it a bit

pctacitus:: yeah, like shit

howbloom:: 10,000 palestinians under Yassir Arafat

pctacitus:: Jordanians massacred palastinians

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wish people would just realize they are weaving a story and it's killing them

howbloom:: were living in Palestine--Jordan

howbloom:: yes, you've got it

ZombieHatesYou:: *frowns*

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there's a point when one's self-narrative unravels and you have to see you are just a member of a species

ladyfractal:: michael: but that's not going to happen...people are far too wedded to their memes

howbloom:: tacitus, how did you know and can you tell the story

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--it will happen someday

pctacitus:: history

ladyfractal:: michael: *particularly* if those memes help them feel special and beats back the demon of having to deal with their own lives

howbloom:: well few know that corner of history

howbloom:: it never made the headlines

pctacitus:: Arafat was too politically powerful

ZombieHatesYou:: I will have to read up on that.

Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'll agree with Lady....I don't see it ever happening

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in Ireland, at one point, 3 children were killed by a bomb...their parents were protestant and catholic. Neither side could use them as martyrs. That seemed to break the spell for a lot of people.

cinnamon321:: I agree ladyfractal

howbloom:: the slaughter of Palestinians by...Palestinians

pctacitus:: the king of Jordan had the army kick the PLO out by force

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nature gave us tribal identities for a reason...perhaps she breaks those open and gives us species identities when the pressure is great enough.

ladyfractal:: chris: I'm not saying it will *never* happen...but I think it will be a terribly long road. There's a rising tide of irrationalism and I don't think we've seen the crest of it yet

howbloom:: yes, Arafat's boys were doing what they do best--stealing cars and forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint

pctacitus:: tanks vs rifles

Glory Matthews:: Michale, I really identify with what you said ... I often feel not just from my culture, but just human

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I would imagine the blaming of Jews for the Palestinians is partly a product of guilt over how Arabs have treateed them?

pctacitus:: who wins? just guess people

howbloom:: and there were suspicions that Arafat might want the Jordanian throne

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: tribal narratives are soaked with guilt, that's why I can't have identify with them

howbloom:: michael, it would be nice

pctacitus:: Arafat wants power? Im so shocked

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: arabs and Israelis and Americans, all thee groups have stories...and guilt is fuelling a big chunk of them

Chris OConnor:: Lady - I am afraid for our species. I see ignorance everywhere I turn...and this ignorance is embraced. As if its a virtue to not care about self-education

howbloom:: if the Arabs felt guilty over the way they've penned up the Palestinians in refugee camps

pctacitus:: no wait Im not at all shocked

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: exactly

howbloom:: and used them as political pawns

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if everyone felt their own guilt, they'd stop projecting it

howbloom:: but I don't think there's a stitch of guilt about it

ladyfractal:: chris: that is *exactly* what I'm talking and I are on the same page

howbloom:: and you're right

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but guilt makes them feel unconsciously that they deserve to be overwhelmed

pctacitus:: of course not

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so they push and strategize

howbloom:: there's no need for guilt when you can blame it on the Israelis

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and form final solutions

pctacitus:: it's war by proxy

howbloom:: the jews who secretly run america etc

Glory Matthews:: Chris, I am concerned about that too.

Chris OConnor:: Michael - the problem is the majority of people on this planet are idiots...and they don't care about their idiocy.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and both populations are separated by a gulf of perception

Chris OConnor:: Glory - I don't see a solution

pctacitus:: the arabs are hoping both sides will kill each other off

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives

ladyfractal:: chris: My housemate, is very well educated and well-traveled...but without realizing the implications, dismisses with a wave of the hand, rationality, logic and science as being 'just another (inferior) way of viewing the world'

ZombieHatesYou:: There's never need for guilt when you can blame it on someone else...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: group identity replaces individual conscience because it's too hard to bear

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and everyone becomes a robot

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Why is it that there are so many jews in political office in the US?

howbloom:: group identities are very important

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jews? try christians!

howbloom:: group identities give us our individual identity

ladyfractal:: chris: when I tried to explain to her that in some Islamic states, for instance, the accused in a murder can have friends come in and testiy on his behalf and that testimony is counted as evidentiary that is a scary world, she didn't understand it.

Glory Matthews:: Chris, people don't want to know, they just want to be sheltered, and we all know this and only extreme circumstances will change that.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more identified with my abilities and not with a group beyond my immediate family

cinnamon321:: My biggest pipe dream for the future would be that humans would gain a species identity as the flow of information between the nether-regions of the world increases and people lose some of their ignorance.

Chris OConnor:: Is there any truth to what I've heard of Jews controlling this nation?

pctacitus:: chris?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more like a piece of music than a piece of land

pctacitus:: are you ok?

ladyfractal:: michael: hmmmm...I understand what you are saying...I've been giving a lot of thought to it as you speak

howbloom:: LOL

howbloom:: look, music is all about group identity

howbloom:: think for a moment

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know if I were black, and I spent time with black people, I'd form an "authentic" black identity

howbloom:: music is used as a flag to show what group you belong to

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: same with jewishness...if I was SEEN as a member of the group, I'd feel their narrative

ladyfractal:: michael: But I have to say, I *am* part of something larger than myself or my family. My personal story, who I am,is inseperable from my being a black American and a child of the civil rights movement.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--that's why white suburban kids talk ghetto

Chris OConnor:: I listen to rap

howbloom:: to say fuck you to their parents

ZachSylvanus:: you rebel :P

Chris OConnor:: I like Tu Pac, Eminem, etc..

Glory Matthews:: Howard, I relate with the music statement more than anything else that has been said tonight!

howbloom:: to say we have an identity of our own

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel connected to all white people just cos I'm white..but if whites were persecuted, then I'd have a "white" identity

Chris OConnor:: I also listen to Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman, Al Green, Marvin Gaye

howbloom:: yes

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: white kids saying "we have our own identity, and it's black!"

howbloom:: michael is right

pctacitus:: isn't the music thing in Global Brain?

ladyfractal:: michael; LOL!!!

howbloom:: opposiiton in the greatest bonder

howbloom:: music is another bonder

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel Jewish, but if I lived in Israel I might

howbloom:: the music thing isn't in global brain

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as it is, nobody notices my jewishness so I don't identify with it

howbloom:: it's part of my fieldwork in music

Chris OConnor:: Howard - it is something you should write about someday

ZombieHatesYou:: I think our "ethnic" or "cultural" identity is what often gets us into these messes in the first place...

howbloom:: it's one of the things I learned helping new subcultures get on their feet

pctacitus:: Are you sure Howard?

ladyfractal:: michael: well, my 'authentic' black identity is a very different 'black' identity than what gets into the media

Chris OConnor:: Howard - or I should say "publish" someday

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I lived in a prison and was seen as a criminal, I'd adopt the criminal identity

Glory Matthews:: Howard, I would LOVE to read about the music idea.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - explain disco then

ladyfractal:: howard; disco??!!!!!!!

howbloom:: hang on

Chris OConnor:: I even liked disco

howbloom:: how did

Chris OConnor:: I LOVE music

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think all the "identities" people are coasting on will turn out to be automatic programs which will shock us into a new identity, a species identity

howbloom:: Al sharpton's name come up?

howbloom:: then we'll do disco

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those identities are becoming idols, brittle

Chris OConnor:: Who didn't like Saturday Night Fever?

NaddiaAoC:: Chris: You liked disco? Wow. My whole opinion of you just went down the crapper.

ladyfractal:: howard: Yes, briefly...I was saying that my black identity was more like Shelby Steele than Al Sharpton

Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - I sure did

cinnamon321:: Micheal, we will eventually HAVE to have a species identity.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I can imagine having a disco identity

howbloom:: good for you

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon--a lot of people have already glimpsed it

howbloom:: I spent six months babysitting al sharpton and

Chris OConnor:: I love music....soooooo much. I like bagpipes, banjos, the pan flute

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when you arent' accepted by ANY group, something happens to you

howbloom:: am utterly disgusted at what the media has made of him

ladyfractal:: howard: the ONLY reason I would invoke that man is to emphasize the ways in which I am not like him

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you are Jewish but the Jewish community rejects you, you become what?

pctacitus:: Al Sharpton's campaign would reelect GWB

howbloom:: he's a con man and he's been legitmated

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you're black but you're gay, are you treated the same as if you were just black? Identity becomes complex.

ladyfractal:: howard: not that I have strong feelings about him at all.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: legitimated lol

Meme Wars left

NaddiaAoC:: I love music too, Chris, but I have yet to meet a disco song that I like.

howbloom:: I do, he's a fascinating guy and extremely charming

howbloom:: but a thief

howbloom:: ok disco if you're up for it

ladyfractal:: michael; I can say, definitely, that you're not. there is a tension between my being black and my being gay

pctacitus:: ok

Chris OConnor:: Lady - I would love to have a conversation someday about racism...its of great interest to me.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Al Sharpton is popular for his ability to get racism publicized when nobody else will touch it

ladyfractal:: michael: for a long time I didn't have much to do with the black community because of homophobia

howbloom:: gays in the 1950s and 1960s were bashed, beaten when they went on the street

Glory Matthews:: Michael, you become Velveta, just like the rest of the ethnic-uncentered americans who struggle for identity.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--but maybe that tension gives you a way to see through the illusion of both identities?

howbloom:: they had no ligeitimate identity in our culture

Chris OConnor:: Howard - lets talk disco

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think you have to be "velveta"

ladyfractal:: michael: Yes, it does...

howbloom:: gay clubs were raided by the police and everyone arrested for being gay

howbloom:: this is the background of the disco movement

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no real ethnic identification but I identify with art, music, things involving pattern

howbloom:: one sunday I got a call from a close friend in the music business

Chris OConnor:: Howard! Are you saying disco is a gay thing?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--so everyone acted gay and that solved the problem! I get it!

ladyfractal:: michael: But when I moved to Oregon, and found that this place is white as new-fallen snow, I suddenly feel *very* black...

howbloom:: it must have been 1975

LanDroid joined

howbloom:: or 1976

ladyfractal:: chris; no, I understand where howard is going

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--well that I can understand

NaddiaAoC:: Hi LanDroid!

howbloom:: he was on fire island, a place where gays can quietyl be themselves

Chris OConnor:: Speaking of gay....welcome back LanDroid

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I moved into an all black neighborhood, I'd feel conspicuously white

AvatarofPower:: lol

NaddiaAoC:: I was still burping up breastmilk in 1975.

LanDroid:: Heh, howdy - been here a while, just quiet......

howbloom:: he said, "meet me at my apartment tomorrow morning" Monday when

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: unless they were all intellectuals

ladyfractal:: chris: I hadn't come out yet...but I lived just north of San Francisco and have friends who were out at that time

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Chris

howbloom:: I get off the seaplane from fire island

howbloom:: we met

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: he was wildly excited

howbloom:: he was a very macho sort of guy

Chris OConnor:: macho macho man....(Village People)

howbloom:: so was his roommate, zz tops rep in ny and another friend and colleague of mine

ladyfractal:: chris: I was wondering if he was gonna tie the gay rights movement to the disco movement...that's the ONLY place where I could see disco having any kind of political consciousness

howbloom:: he tolem me he was gay and proud of it

NaddiaAoC:: Me too, LanDroid. I'm at work so I'm in and out of the chat.

howbloom:: I was very, very surprised

howbloom:: then he told me what had been happening during the summer on fire island

ladyfractal:: chris; btw. I'd be happy to talk to you about racism at some point

Chris OConnor:: I never undrstood being proud of anything you didn't proactively do

howbloom:: in the gay community

Chris OConnor:: lady - excellent

howbloom:: there was a new form of music being imported from

ladyfractal:: chris: you can email me if you wish

howbloom:: europ

howbloom:: it was techno dance stuff with a feverish pitch

NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Me either. That's why I have a hard time with the phrase, "proud to be an American."

howbloom:: the gays were gathering every night and dancing their asses of to it

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: where is the gay gangsta rap?

howbloom:: empowered by that music, they felt a potent sense of belonging

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there must be gay gangstas out there

howbloom:: a potent sense of identity

howbloom:: and they wanted to take that music

Chris OConnor:: lady - you should start posting on BookTalk - we could have a great conversation on "The Roundtable" about this...I don't have enough time to do email conversations and also participate on BookTalk. I like to keep the intellectual time-consuming stuff on the boards

howbloom:: and that IDENTITY

howbloom:: global

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: identity=resonance

howbloom:: disco was a social movement

ladyfractal:: michael: actually had an article about three months ago on gay rappers

howbloom:: a coming out of the closet, and I was being asked to be its spokesman

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--yeah, but gangsta rappers?

NaddiaAoC:: Lady: Yeah, you should start a thread about racism on the message board. I would love to discuss it too.

ladyfractal:: michael: its still very small...but there seems to be a growing gay hip-hop rap scene

howbloom:: the person who would embed it in the culture

AvatarofPower:: all real deep forms of music are social movements....

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--kewl

howbloom:: new gay clubs sprang up on the west side of the village

howbloom:: overtly

howbloom:: outrageously gay clubs

howbloom:: no pretending, no sneaking around

Chris OConnor:: I've been in a gay club

ladyfractal:: michael: well, I'm not sure and I'm not sure I would WANT there to be a gay gangsta' rap scene because I'm not particularly fond of gangsta rap

howbloom:: but clothes like you've never seen

LanDroid:: No surprise Chris...

AvatarofPower:: heh... enjoy yourself chris?

howbloom:: skin tight leather outfits, then the macho thing

Chris OConnor:: LanDroid ROFL

cinnamon321:: LOL

Glory Matthews:: lan, heh

howbloom:: guys dressed up like the Village People

howbloom:: before there was a Village people

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and gays have more reason than anyone to oppose
fundamentalist islamic radicals but they can't join the army

howbloom:: two gay guys flew in from France

ladyfractal:: michael: to me, it appropriates the *worst* images of black urban life and elevates them to be THE One True Authentic Blackness

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: pity

Chris OConnor:: I wore black leather pants, a leather vest, and a space helmet

howbloom:: and suddently found their freedom

howbloom:: in the clubs

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--yup

ZombieHatesYou:: *has minor mental breakdown*

howbloom:: they were brilliant at making music

Chris OConnor:: Hoard - this was in the 70's?

howbloom:: they recruited four guys and random

howbloom:: yes the 70s

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: here goose, have an identity

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er..zombs

howbloom:: and dressed them the way the guys in the clubs were dressing

howbloom:: and called them the village people

Chris OConnor:: The Village People

Chris OConnor:: yes

ZombieHatesYou:: You called me Goose

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sowwy

Chris OConnor:: and they were great I thought

howbloom:: it was a celebration of their identity

LanDroid:: YMCA!

Chris OConnor:: no laughing...I liked them

ladyfractal:: howard: so that's how they started!

howbloom:: disco was a social movement

Sephirah Geburah:: What do you see for the near future of music in general, Howard?

howbloom:: a demand to be recognized

Chris OConnor:: yes

howbloom:: a demand to the end of gay bashing

ladyfractal:: howard: so, what do you think about the current gay rights movement?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: music with intelligent lyrics would be nice

Glory Matthews:: Zomb, at least he didn't call you Binary ;P

Chris OConnor:: And it seemed to have an extent

LanDroid:: Next musical social movement?

Chris OConnor:: tehy came out of the closet

howbloom:: so when I worked on music i never worked on rhythm and melody in a vacuum

AvatarofPower:: Jam

howbloom:: i was always freeing new subcultures the right

Sephirah Geburah:: Or artistic and honest lyrics at that...

AvatarofPower:: damn hippies are starting to come back....

howbloom:: for new ways to be

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how would you free islamic intellectuals?

ladyfractal:: avatar: hey! I resemble that remark! LOL

howbloom:: hmmmm, I'm on ef those damend hippies, circa 1962

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need publicists

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm a country fan....any opinions on country music?

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Avatar. From that photo of you on the MB I think you should be their king.

howbloom:: I'm trying to free Islamic intellectuals

pctacitus:: hippies again, damn them

AvatarofPower:: lol

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you a bleeding heart liberal or a handwringing liberal?

howbloom:: yoiks, naddia

Chris OConnor:: (and please don't say, "yea, it sucks"

howbloom:: bear with me if I sound stupid or brash

Chris OConnor:: ok

howbloom:: but in 1973 I was working with country music

Chris OConnor:: ok

ladyfractal:: howard: out of sheer curiosity...what do you think of what happened to the gay rights movement AFTER AIDS hit?

howbloom:: I hated the music but loved the people

howbloom:: the music got no respect, it was like the gay thing

pctacitus:: ok

howbloom:: so I worked to take it mainstream and it worked

howbloom:: but why did I do it?

ladyfractal:: howard; I got involved in the movement in the late 80's...and it seemed like we lost a generation of least amongst men.

howbloom:: for the people, not for the music

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos your dog died and your pickup stopped working?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, the people are a big part of it for me. What I like about country music is it is clean...and the lyrics are about things we can all relate to.

howbloom:: and the lyrics say that if you are depressed and miserable

howbloom:: you are not alone

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lesbian country is good

Chris OConnor:: Howard - what country artists did you work with?

howbloom:: there are a bunch of us and we will comfort you

ladyfractal:: michael: lesbian whom?

howbloom:: Donna Fargo

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: KD Lang maybe?

howbloom:: Roy Clark

LanDroid:: I like humorous country songs, otherwise can't get past the twang...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not sure what's considered country

ladyfractal:: michael: ahhh...okay...she's more Jazz now...and the indigo girls aren't country

howbloom:: nope, I was asked to take a look at KD Lang

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Another thing I like is that country fans are cross-generational. You can like the same songs if you are 12 or 21 or 61

howbloom:: and to give an opinion to a record company president who was thinking of signing her

howbloom:: and I hated her

Chris OConnor:: Never heard of Donna Fargo

howbloom:: so I did not always get things right

Chris OConnor:: but that was the 70's

LanDroid:: Chris - like the rolling stones?

ladyfractal:: lan: LOL

ladyfractal:: chris: the Grateful Dead are like that

LanDroid:: Hated KD Lang?

Chris OConnor:: I am not a deadhead

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the first bands I really liked were talking heads and Police

howbloom:: yes, I must confess

ladyfractal:: chris: I am.

Chris OConnor:: ahh

howbloom:: I hated KD Lang and was sure she would go nowhere

pctacitus:: why

AvatarofPower:: heh... the jamband social scene is getting *huge* nowadays, lady

ladyfractal:: michael; I LOVED the Police...

Chris OConnor:: Howard - she has fizzled out though...a short career

AvatarofPower:: and the Dead is back!

howbloom:: I helped start a whole bunch of subcultures off--rap, heavy metal, crossover black

LanDroid:: I wouldn't buy a disc, but thought KD has a great voice compared to most...

Chris OConnor:: Which bands?

Chris OConnor:: I love metal

howbloom:: but kd lang resonated with the old country music i'd heard when I was a kid

Chris OConnor:: Constant Craving is the only KD Lang song I know

howbloom:: and I sensed something alien about that music, it was a group identity thing

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the only song I really like lol

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: haven't heard that much of her stuff though

Sephirah Geburah:: Hey! Im gonna toot my own horn! My "band" for lack of better words, has had a local top ten album for more than 7 months, had over 14,000 downloads on, consitently sell out local venues, and have talked from everybody from RCA to Warner Brothers about deals... Any suggestions on how we can finally get this thing going the next step?!

howbloom:: I was four yeras old and would wake up at 6am before my parents

ladyfractal:: okay I'm gonna blast some Dave Matthews Band and get ready to go have a drink

howbloom:: and turn on the radio

cinnamon321:: For me, I like a song and I don't really pay attention to the artist.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--right on...where do you live?

ladyfractal:: be well all...namaste

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye fractal

Sephirah Geburah:: !!! Namaste!!!!!!

howbloom:: and it was all country music and farm reports and something inside of me told me

cinnamon321:: by fractal

Sephirah Geburah:: Arizona

ladyfractal:: michael: thanks for telling me about this place...this was a Good Thing (tm)

howbloom:: that I was a Jewish city kid and that farmers hated me

Sephirah Geburah:: Phoenix

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I tend to resonate to individual songs, not so much the persona

howbloom:: so I hated the music--remember I was only four

LanDroid:: Heh, insightful 4 year old.

ladyfractal:: howard: pleasure meeting you...I've read some of your works....enjoyed speaking with you.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there jewish rap?

ZombieHatesYou:: Take care, Frac

Chris OConnor:: Sephira - thats awesome

howbloom:: thanks fractal

ladyfractal:: zombs: be well suga' to ya later

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they should have rap competitions between Jews and Arabs

ladyfractal left

Chris OConnor:: Bye Lady

ZachSylvanus:: Michael: I've heard HINDI rap>>>

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sing the narratives

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I've heard hindi rap

ZachSylvanus:: I'm sure there's Jewish rap

howbloom:: rap competitions between christians and arabs

ZachSylvanus:: lol

howbloom:: i love it

Chris OConnor:: lol

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe a world competition for narrative songwriting

Chris OConnor:: lovely

howbloom:: you know what I would love?

LanDroid:: freestylin...

Chris OConnor:: What?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: aspire to be the spokesman for your identity niche

howbloom:: if jews and arabs could live together and enjoy each other

AvatarofPower:: penguins?

LanDroid:: heh.

howbloom:: have coffee together at the cafes

Chris OConnor:: How do you feel about Ebonics and rap lyrics?

howbloom:: eat dinner together

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--did I mention that phone campaign?

howbloom:: talk about the holy sights in hebron

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, that would be incredibe

howbloom:: make dates to meet each other there

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they're anonymously connecting Israelis and Palestinians over the phone

ZachSylvanus:: We need a powerful Arab Neitzsche to kill Allah

howbloom:: i had a bit of that when I was in Israel

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a switchboard for peace

LanDroid:: how long would that take - less than 1000 years?

howbloom:: I'd love to see it as a social norm

NaddiaAoC:: LOL Zach

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it takes a generation, but you have to be willing to go against the ones on your own side who feel the other side is alien

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: because that's guilt talking

howbloom:: the Arab world has managed to unite the entire Islamic community around hatred of Israel and of Jews

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the person who reminds me of my own failures is the person who is most alien to me

howbloom:: from Nigeria to Malaysia

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos they have a vibe which goes inside

howbloom:: Jew hatred is too valuable a political tool to give up

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need to role play and be in a situation where they're SEEN as jews

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's what breaks up the trance...being seen as the other side

pctacitus:: it gives them something to believe in

howbloom:: god, do you mean asking arabs to role play a jewish role?

Chris OConnor:: I've never understood it

Chris OConnor:: Jew hatred

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--and vice versa

howbloom:: I put myself inside the arab mind every day

Chris OConnor:: I've never understood hatred of any sort...blind hatred

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all things come full circle eventually. There's a book by a concentration camp survivor who took LSD with a psychiatrist...

howbloom:: I read Osama's speeches word for word

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he said he saw the Nazi within himself

howbloom:: and those of mnay of his allies

Chris OConnor:: Howard - that is a great book "The Arab Mind"

pctacitus:: in what language?

Sephirah Geburah:: Howard, have you considered employing your social engeneering techniques to help a "arab-neitzsche" for example, get off its feet?

howbloom:: I'm trying

Sephirah Geburah:: How?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think you need people who are very fluid in their identification

howbloom:: that's why I have meetings in this bedroom with folks with tiels to Bangla Desh and Afghanistan

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people who can separate the factual narrative from the identity narrative

howbloom:: I am trying to help these people find their voice

howbloom:: and trying to influence the educational systems in those countries

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: interesting that we can do that, isn't it? sit indoors and communicate halfway around the world

howbloom:: so kids are not taught hate

Sephirah Geburah:: !!! I would give you a hug if

Chris OConnor:: thats the key

Sephirah Geburah:: I was there

howbloom:: and not taught only about their warriror heros

Sephirah Geburah:: hehehe

howbloom:: but are taught about their culture heros

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's not just teaching hate, it's child abuse...abused kids will adopt angry identities to displace anger at their own parents

howbloom:: the ones who innovated and who created new ideas, new empowerments for humanity

howbloom:: forgotten heros

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a lot of it is psycholigical substitution and displacement

howbloom:: forgotten role models

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Islam produced some great art

howbloom:: but role models build the psyches and the passions of kids

howbloom:: and stay inside adults, guiding their emotions

Sephirah Geburah:: Howard, Do you keep a journal? And if you do, do you think you ever publish it?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true...being SEEN in association with the role model
howbloom:: I have 300 mb of

howbloom:: the grand unified theory of everything in the universe including the human soul

Chris OConnor:: Wow

howbloom:: it's 3,800 chapters of book material

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send it over

Sephirah Geburah:: !!! I wanna read it all!!! JEEZE!!!

howbloom:: I need editors to helpe me put it together

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: should form a think tank to compete with the Heritage Inst

howbloom:: so if you know anyone in ny

pctacitus:: how much will that cost on amazon?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - do you believe humans have a soul?

Sephirah Geburah:: Ok do this, right click "My Documents" and click "Share" ok?

howbloom:: who'd like to help, let me know

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'll help with whatever

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my website

LanDroid:: Came in late - have you chatted about the effect of the upcoming war? U.S. genocide in Baghdad seeding more terrorism?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have some free time

howbloom:: sould to me means passions so deep that they leap from us like flame in transcendent moments

pctacitus:: I'll edit

howbloom:: remember, I'm an atheist

howbloom:: tacitus, where do you live?

Chris OConnor:: Howard - defined as such I have quite a soul

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like the idea of scientific pantheism

pctacitus:: VA

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think about the soul, but not as an external thing

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: more as a pattern

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feedback spiral

howbloom:: scientific pantheism is part of what we're working on around here

howbloom:: a new religion based on science

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's coming

ZachSylvanus:: Why bother?

howbloom:: one of the books in the hard drive waiting to be birthed

pctacitus:: Church of Virus?

Chris OConnor:: I never understood pantheism. The cosmos is divine? Meaningless to me.

Sephirah Geburah:: THATS IT!!! ALL OF YOU!!! Ponder for the next couple days on how we can help Howard get those chapters into the public hands... His work has already done magic for many people I know, and the more the better... This world needs it, and fast

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: harness that limbig resonance and add some poetry and smart ideas

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: limbic

howbloom:: is called The third Testament--the message of science to the human soul

ZachSylvanus:: I guess I don't understand why science needs a church

cinnamon321:: Some peoples religion is science. LOL

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think the basic message is "it's all connected"

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you've seen Mindwalk haven't you?

howbloom:: sephirah, thank you for your words

pctacitus:: My spring break starts tommorrow

ZachSylvanus:: the very idea of a religion based around science implies some sort of dogma

howbloom:: can you email me so I can stay in touch with you?

pctacitus:: email me and I will edit quickly

cinnamon321:: I agree Zach.

howbloom:: my email address is

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think we would all love if you stayed in contact with BookTalk somehow...not sure how. Maybe come back in the future to keep us abreast of your progress in solving the great mysteries of life.

howbloom:: or if that's hard to remember, try this


MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you send me stuff to read, I'll see if I can come up with some flash poetry based on it

Chris OConnor:: Michael - One of my favorite movies!!!

howbloom:: Chris let's discuss it and figure out a way to do it

pctacitus:: I'll be in touch

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Mindwalk was good

howbloom:: wow, Michael, email me, remind me about the flash poetry, ok?

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--will do

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's an L in your email right?

LanDroid:: - like a wolf? heh.

NaddiaAoC:: Howard: I would love for you to stay in touch. It would be fun to chat with you again.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok, howl

Chris OConnor:: Howard - I would love to see you do something with Dorion and Ann Druyan...something about bringing the beauty of science to the masses. That was Carls passion.

howbloom:: tacitus, if you seriously think you've got some editing time, stay in touch, emai me

howbloom:: naddia, thank you

LanDroid:: Yes, building on candle in the darkness.

pctacitus:: I will

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've always got time, my only client right now is my dad
howbloom:: LOL

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: write anytime, I like interesting projects and think tanks

howbloom:: ok, guys and ladies, I'm wiped

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to see you again howard

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: always stimulating

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Want the transcript emailed again?

LanDroid:: Whew! Thanks! Great job!

howbloom:: chris, let's see if we can work out another visit and yes, please send a transcript

Sephirah Geburah:: Thank you SO much Howard for talking with us! You mean so much to so many of us... I can't thank you enough...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send me one too chris

AvatarofPower:: it was excellent talking with you, howard!

ZachSylvanus:: Thanks for taking time to chat with us

howbloom:: I will see you all again soon

pctacitus:: thanks Howard

cinnamon321:: Yes, thanks for talking to us Howard.

Chris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, you can expect the transcript shortly. I always edit for spelling errors to make it read smoother.

NaddiaAoC:: Thanks for coming by, Howard. This was definitely a highlight of BookTalk!

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to chat with people not using capslock

howbloom left

Chris OConnor:: Michael - LOL No doubt

pctacitus:: bye, I have an art history paper to write by tomorrow

Sephirah Geburah:: Aww.. hes gone.. its kind of like a really good concert ending

Chris OConnor:: I'm glad to see so many people turned out for this

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: later pc

pctacitus left

LanDroid:: Whoaaa. Amazing - what did he say, 3800 chapters? Heh...

Chris OConnor:: Howard is a great guy....brilliant

Glory Matthews:: It's been great to chat tonight, very interesting. Must get to bed now though. G'night!

NaddiaAoC:: I am too.

AvatarofPower:: yeah, it was a good session, chris

Chris OConnor:: Night Glori

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have to pee. See you in yahoo, chris

NaddiaAoC:: Goodnight Glory

ZachSylvanus:: g'night glory

cinnamon321:: Yeah...3800 Chapters..that boggles the imagination

ZombieHatesYou:: Thanks for having me, Chris.

MichaelangeloGlossolalia left

AvatarofPower:: thats alota text

ZombieHatesYou:: I've a lot to think about now.

AvatarofPower:: 300mb of text

Chris OConnor:: Hey, the transcript will be in "Chat Central" and you all can feel to add comments to the thread

ZombieHatesYou:: *retreats to yahoo*

ZombieHatesYou left

Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I am sooo glad you came by

cinnamon321:: That kind of reminds me of Wolfram's a new kind of science...but Wolframs book is about math

Chris OConnor:: Damn she left

Sephirah Geburah:: hehe

AvatarofPower:: have you read that, cinnamon?

Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - and I'm glad you joined.

Sephirah Geburah:: Is there some sort of Buddy List system here on Booktalk?

cinnamon321:: No....

Sephirah Geburah:: Me to! Thanks again chris!

Glory Matthews left

AvatarofPower:: ahh

cinnamon321:: I would like to be able to understand it someday though.

Chris OConnor:: we will have many authors as guests in the future

cinnamon321:: I was just comparing book sizes

Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - What do you mean by muddy list?

LanDroid:: Can we get Lucretius next month?

AvatarofPower:: heh...

AvatarofPower:: its a biggun

Chris OConnor:: Lan - I already have him set up

Chris OConnor:: LOL

Sephirah Geburah:: I dunno... I met alot of neat people in this room tonight and I want some way to log there names and talk with them outside of booktalk

AvatarofPower:: i'm slowly preparing my brain to start digging through it

ZachSylvanus:: The forums, Seph

Sephirah Geburah:: oh yeah

Sephirah Geburah:: silly me.. im new at all this

ZachSylvanus:: hehe

cinnamon321:: Arent most of the booktalk people on yahell?

Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - Here is the scoop. You can exchange emails on the forums...and talk outside of BookTalk

NaddiaAoC:: Alright folks. I need to go. Nice chatting with you.

ZachSylvanus:: g'night cheryl

AvatarofPower:: talk to ya later, cheryl!

Chris OConnor:: I want to have a BookTalk get-together one day within the year here in Florida

Chris OConnor:: Night cheryl

cinnamon321:: Good night Naddia

Sephirah Geburah:: How many registered users does Book talk have?

AvatarofPower:: florida... so... far... away

NaddiaAoC:: Goodnight everyone!

AvatarofPower:: 62

NaddiaAoC left

ZachSylvanus:: Florida is so hot

LanDroid:: 62 members! Allriiiight...

Chris OConnor:: We have 62 registered users...but I do something to the numbers...

Sephirah Geburah:: ?

Chris OConnor:: Other EZBoards do not delete inactive people...I do

Sephirah Geburah:: oh

Sephirah Geburah:: gotcha

Chris OConnor:: If I didn't delete people we would have over 100

Chris OConnor:: I delete spammers

Sephirah Geburah:: how long has this board been around?

cinnamon321:: Spammers?

Chris OConnor:: and people who don't come back after doing a "hit and run"
cinnamon321:: Hmm, I didnt know anyone who spammed on message boards

Chris OConnor:: Spammers are people who come by and post about their message board without even knowing what BookTalk is

Chris OConnor:: ...other EZBoard owners

cinnamon321:: Yeah, that would be annoying.

Chris OConnor:: But the moderators delete those posts right away

Chris OConnor:: I wanted to say something

Chris OConnor:: We are now reading "Atheism: A Reader"....

Chris OConnor:: I plan to invite S.T. Joshi for a chat in 2 months

Chris OConnor:: And possibly Carl Sagans widow Ann Druyan

Sephirah Geburah:: CRAP! I wish I had money. I would go buy it.. I will try to scroundge up cash...

cinnamon321:: Cool

ZachSylvanus:: do you think he'll deign to speak to us mere mortals? Joshi, that is

cinnamon321:: I'll have to hit the library

Chris OConnor:: She would stand in for Carl...who has an essay in this book

Sephirah Geburah:: Starving artist

Chris OConnor:: Zach - I would bet on it

AvatarofPower:: that would be very cool, chris

Sephirah Geburah:: I have a big over due fee at the library shame on me

LanDroid:: Be sure to tell Jeremy that Howard specifically admitted to being an atheist.
Jeremy seems to think he is a theologian, LOL...

cinnamon321:: You're an artist sephirah, or a student?

Chris OConnor:: Zach - we have a great group here...authors love feedback

ZachSylvanus:: true

Chris OConnor:: LanDroid - good point

Sephirah Geburah:: I'm a musician

ZachSylvanus:: On the other hand, do we really understand the issues? :P

Chris OConnor:: Are you all reading this next book?

AvatarofPower:: i'm omnicient, zach... didn't you know?

Chris OConnor:: I am looking very much forward to some awesome discussions on it

cinnamon321:: Oh cool Seph, do you identify the style of music you play with any of the current genres?

ZachSylvanus:: Not only did I know, but I made you say that

LanDroid:: Yeah, I just started John Stuart Mill - # 10.

AvatarofPower:: i knew you were making me say it... i just went along with it to make you *think* you were making me say it

Chris OConnor:: I wish there was a way to select all of the text in this chat room with one or two buttons

Sephirah Geburah:: AH!! CINNAMON I LOVE YOU!!! That was the best way to ask that question!!! hehehe... I have had HUNDREDS of people ask the simple question, "Who would you compare yourself to"

Chris OConnor:: LanDroid - damn

cinnamon321:: hehe

Chris OConnor:: Ok guys...thanks for showing up and making this such a success.

Sephirah Geburah:: But, the best way Ihave heard somebody describe our music is "Exotic Industrial Hardcore"

AvatarofPower left

Chris OConnor:: Howard will come back in the heard him

Sephirah Geburah:: It is very spiritual and artistic

cinnamon321:: Cool Seph.

LanDroid:: What's the website?

Chris OConnor:: I am done chatting...I have to copy and paste this whole thread now.

cinnamon321:: Good luck with your band

Sephirah Geburah::

Chris OConnor:: Goodnight guys

LanDroid:: Thanks - chekkin it...

Sephirah Geburah:: nighty night!

cinnamon321: Goodnight Chris

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