connected: ezChat version 0.50
howbloom:: the lord of the rings trilogy
howbloom:: hi, chris
Chris OConnor:: Hello folks
howbloom:: hi jeremy
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, great timing
for it, with looming war etc.
Chris OConnor:: Hey Howard!
howbloom:: i have about
30 books in the computer
Jeremy1952:: Hi Dr. Bloom
Jeremy1952:: welcome back!
Chris OConnor:: Howard - were you watching Bush
talk the past hour?
howbloom:: one of them
is "Hit In The Head By Heavy Metal"
howbloom:: no, what did he say?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was proud of bush
today, he only said "nuclear" a few
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, that one
howbloom:: so what did
Chris OConnor:: Howard - he is giving a speech
about why we need to disarm Iraq - preparing for
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he's such a Pygmalion
Chris OConnor:: I am totally in support of Bush
howbloom:: ok, so how
do you guys feel
Sephirah Geburah:: When do you plan on having
"Hit in the head by heavy metal" available
to the masses?! I would love nothing more than
to read your wisdom on music!
Jeremy1952:: I'm guessing he said, we're gonna
have a war, and you can't stop me, neener neener
howbloom:: about the
elephant in the room
howbloom:: the war
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I feel that if we don't
address this problem we will pay for it dearly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm hoping it goes
perfectly and the Iraqis love us
pctacitus:: it's a risk, but it may pay off in
the long run
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect it's gonna
be a bit messier
howbloom:: do you want
the bloomean view?
Jeremy1952:: I think it is essentially a holy
Chris OConnor:: Howard - please....yes
Jeremy1952:: I think bush is reintroducing...
howbloom:: this is a
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I might not be so worried
if someone other than a
fundamentalist Christian were in office
Jeremy1952:: but I'll wait
pctacitus:: how so?
howbloom:: we have three
choices ahead of us
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think it is too
howbloom:: a pax americana
howbloom:: a world ruled by America
howbloom:: a pax sinica
howbloom:: a world ruled by china
howbloom:: or a mad max nightmare
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mean a world run
by multinational corporations through
howbloom:: the possible
end of the human race
pctacitus:: I'll take option #1
howbloom:: that's another
howbloom:: and an important one
Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats what I fear....an
end to the human species
Jeremy1952:: I'm all for rule by america... by
an ethical, moral america
howbloom:: in three to
five years some of the most insane people in the
Jeremy1952:: I dont' think its another issue at
Chris OConnor:: Howard - a regression to the Dark
Ages or worse
howbloom:: will have
Johnny Neuron joined
howbloom:: jeremy, it's
an important issue that we can discuss
Chris OConnor:: hey brad - welcome
Jeremy1952:: The issue is, what are we becoming,
in persuit of elusive "safety"?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fear the mythology
of End Times will influence Bush to refuse to
help the peace process in Israel. Anyone who signs
a peace treaty there is the antichrist according
to a large number of Bush supporters.
Jeremy1952:: The principles of cooperation....
we are a Defector with a capital D.
howbloom:: yes, one of
the bloom books that's been waiting in the computer
since 1985 is called
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: why would those people
be deterred by us imposing regime change on one
howbloom:: the return
of the middle ages
pctacitus:: tell us about it
Jeremy1952:: The norms of civilization do not
inculde atacking foreign countries
howbloom:: hang on while
I read what you've all said, there's more on why
this is a necessary war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they do now, jer
Jeremy1952:: Yes.. return to the middle ages...
and Bush is leading the charge
howbloom:: we can't just
impose regime change
Jeremy1952:: All this jibber jabber about god
in every speach
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's christian hubris
frightens me...it's not just the
hawkishness, it's the "God on our side"
Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow
howbloom:: here's how
the evolution of ever larger social forms of organization
howbloom:: they come together ironically on the
basis of a monopoly of force
howbloom:: the nation state for example
howbloom:: originally evolved
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: because of
a new megaweapon
howbloom:: the cannon
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how about a new organism
howbloom:: and because
monarchs were able to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel like I belong
to something multinational and organic
Chris OConnor:: How could they do that?
howbloom:: as a consequence
the kings could batter down the previously impregnable
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you monopolize
Jeremy1952:: That's part of it. But nation states
are inherently more productive than their predescessors
howbloom:: of nobles
who had their own private armies
Jeremy1952:: I think the weapons follow the organization,
not the other way 'round
howbloom:: monopoly of
power led to a larger peace
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you must read like a
maniac to be so well educated in so many subjects.
I suggest you join BookTalk
Chris OConnor:: Hey cinnamon
howbloom:: lemme continue
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: it's a long
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: we're where
Europe was in 1905
howbloom:: the Kaiser was working like hell
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect centralization
of power will break down at some
point and an emergent, transcendent "species
identity" will come up
howbloom:: to take the
huge economic power his country had built up
howbloom:: and turn it into weaponry that would
allow him to outdo
howbloom:: the empire-making machinery
howbloom:: he'd seen at the age of four
howbloom:: when he went to visit his grandmother
howbloom:: queen victoria
Sephirah Geburah:: Howard - With all your jaw
dropping credentials, have you ever considered
joining any sort of position in government so
you can change the beast from the inside?
howbloom:: but his weaponry
would be more advanced
howbloom:: than what grandma had
Chris OConnor:: Good question Sephirah
howbloom:: because his
nation was sprinitng ahead
howbloom:: the bottom line is this
howbloom:: if Europe had flattened a bit of Germany
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd rather be a musician
than a politician. People respect musicians
howbloom:: the war that
entailed would have been over in six months
howbloom:: instead, there were peace movements
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is that an argument
for overkill though?
howbloom:: cries for
howbloom:: and when the war came, it lasted what
seemed like forever
Chris OConnor:: yes, it sure did
Jeremy1952:: Howard, when iraq left its borders,
it was squashed like a bug
howbloom:: instead of
losing 200,000 lives--a terrible, terrible thing
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in hindsight, killing
hitler at birth would have been a moral act...
howbloom:: the world
lost over 20 million
Jeremy1952:: And if it tries "empire buliding"
again, it will be squashed again.
howbloom:: over 19 million
lives could have been saved
howbloom:: if there had been a preemptive war
Jeremy1952:: There is no question that Hitler
should not have been appeased, when he began to
howbloom:: the same thing
came up in 1936
Jeremy1952:: I don't want to live in a world of
"preemptive wars", howard.
howbloom:: when Hitler
took over Czechoslovakia
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that we're
going to apply "brute force" to a problem
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I see your logic...what
you are calling for takes strength and foresight
howbloom:: the world
cried out for diplomacy
howbloom:: for peace
Jeremy1952:: It is the meta-norms of civilzation
that ultimately improve humanity
Chris OConnor:: Hey Zombie
howbloom:: for salving
germany's wounds, addressing its legitimate concerns
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, game theory gets
complex here..it might not work to apply lessons
from the past in a linear way to the present...
howbloom:: in 1936 hitler
pctacitus:: This is basic game theory for politics
howbloom:: he didn't
have the military force to back up his deeds
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'm sure there are similarities
howbloom:: he had, instead,
pacifists and peace movements
howbloom:: and a propaganda machine
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't see this as
nazi germany...it's more like a tentacled monster
howbloom:: if the west
had taken him on
pctacitus:: but there's always someone irrational
who wants war
Jeremy1952:: Exactly. And by running "god"
up his flagpole, Bush is defecting from the game
howbloom:: in 1936 it
would have been a two month war
howbloom:: instead it
was a war that killed over 20 million
ZachSylvanus:: sorry I'm late
pctacitus:: even though you gain more from peaceful
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think we'll
have to bomb north korea too?
Jeremy1952:: So, who else attacks whom, once we
open the floodgates?
war, that hateful phrase
Chris OConnor:: Pctactitus - True, but this war
doesn't seem to be such a wat
Chris OConnor:: Hey Zach
howbloom:: once again
could have saved tens of millions of lives
howbloom:: this time around it won't be so easy
Jeremy1952:: You have just justified attackign
anyone you think is really reaaly bad...
which means that the arabs are entirley justified
howbloom:: the weapons
will be nuclear
Jeremy1952:: in attacking the US and isreael,
howbloom:: they already
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our morale
will be greatly damaged if we do things in the
wrong way...it's not just power that is a factor,
it's what forms of power we can accept using with
a clean conscience
pctacitus:: This war resembles what Phillip Bobbit
calls the Long War
Chris OConnor:: Yes, I'd like your opinion on
N. Korea...I am rather comfortable in our ability
to deal with Iraq.
Jeremy1952:: Becuase they think we are really
howbloom:: someone has
to assert a primacy, a monopoly of power
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: to me, it's like a
cancer. You can't cut out the tumor...you have
to use something subtl
howbloom:: or we will
have nuclear weapons hurled at us from Pakistan,
howbloom:: Libya, from
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: saddam is more like
a tumor, but al qaeda is something else
pctacitus:: it will keep going until all opposing
ideas are crushed completely
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but how does asserting
power prevent anything?
howbloom:: and enough
nuclear weapons being tossed around in the Mediterranean
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if biological weapons
become cheap and available to groups without states?
Jeremy1952:: Yes. Bush had skilllfully distracted
milllions from the fact that he is powerless against
the real enemy
Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of
the Alpha male...in the pecking order
howbloom:: to wipe out
NaddiaAoC:: Hi folks
Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl
howbloom:: the alpha
male is the key to social peace
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see everyone reacting
to an apocalyptic fantasy and accelerating it
in the process
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I think I'm in agreement
Jeremy1952:: So do what israel did... we have
intelligence that they are building a breeder
reactor? Bomb the damn thing
howbloom:: and he uses
force and persuasion and caring to win his place
howbloom:: another example, two
Sephirah Geburah:: Oh! Michaelangelo.. Excellent
Jeremy1952:: Ah, persuasion. Now that would be
howbloom:: to assert
his primacy, Alexander the Great utterly destroyed
a city or two
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so do you think the
US, by playing alpha male, can inspire Arab alpha
males to suppress terrorism in their own countries?
howbloom:: it was hateful
howbloom:: morally disgusting
Chris OConnor:: Howard - But the Alpha male must
have a well-defined code of ethics
howbloom:: but it worked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there was a movie about
the president destroying Baghdad to send a signal
howbloom:: and Pericles
ushered in the Golden Age of Athens with an atrocity
Jeremy1952:: We already destroyed "a city
or two", Howard.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I'm not sure we'd
be safe after that. States would avoid using nukes...but
pctacitus:: Deterrence, good flick
a city that tried to wiggle out of the Athenian
Jeremy1952:: Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it might split the
american culture in half
howbloom:: now we have
to do that not because
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and cause a civil war
Jeremy1952:: The firebombing of Dresden?
howbloom:: Iraq is a
huge menace, it's not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think if we used
nukes against a city, it would split our society
down the middle
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think what Howard
believes is that we must behave like the lead
dog and demand our way...and self police our behaviors
howbloom:: but because
we have to do something that sounds childish and
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I understand the theory
howbloom:: we have to
set an example
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's something I've
thought about before
howbloom:: an example
Kim Jung Il
howbloom:: will pay attention to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we have to be the craziest
nigga on the block.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - this is true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the theory
howbloom:: an example
Osama will pay attention to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how does this work
in the inner city though?
howbloom:: that Quaddafi
will pay attention to
Jeremy1952:: Oh yea, Osama's paying attention.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...he is scaring
the hell out of me
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the math might be similar,
use power in gangs as a model
howbloom:: the messagi
is this--disarm or we will disarm you
Jeremy1952:: Like the attack on Afghanistan made
him stop, right?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we can't find
you and you're suicidal?
howbloom:: ok, I have
been so busy typing I haven't been able to read
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - they forced him to run...they
have disempowered him to a degree
ZachSylvanus:: I'm tempted to think that we don't
have much to worry about from Korea, because of
Jeremy1952:: And the message to ther rest of the
world is: we can no longer be trusted to play
by the rules
howbloom:: give me two
minutes to read what you've said, ok?
Sephirah Geburah:: Everybody take 2!! Go get a
soda or some water!
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - sounds good
Chris OConnor:: This will make an awesome transcript
Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah
pctacitus:: a little disjointed though
Jeremy1952:: We responded to his attack; we took
out ten of his people for every one of ours
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: When you're done reading,
I'll share a flash poem I made with words from
Global Brain...you have the flash plugin?
Chris OConnor:: I am very afraid of N. Korea right
Chris OConnor:: Michael - OMG
Glory Matthews joined
ZachSylvanus:: I don't believe China will allow
N. Korea to do anything drastic
Jeremy1952:: Idont' think he will learn a single
thing from the US attacking a soverign nation,
except maybe that he was right
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've decided to be
afraid of everything. It seems prudent
howbloom:: i'm afraid
of korea too
Chris OConnor:: Hey Glory - you're late. Please
stand in the corner for 30 minutes. Thanks.
howbloom:: yes thye poem,
i do have flash
Johnny Neuron:: My take is North Korea is just
Chris OConnor:: N. Korea is behaving irrationally...without
Chris OConnor:: Johnny - I sure hope
pctacitus:: game theory again
Johnny Neuron:: They don't want to be blasted
to the stone age
Glory Matthews:: Chris, pfffft! You should be
honored, I just got back from the hospital.
Jeremy1952:: Without provoction? I hardly think
ZachSylvanus:: Without provocation?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: read the other day
that Daniel Ellsberg was a game theorist when
he worked at RAND
Jeremy1952:: First of all, we promised not to
demonize his country
Jeremy1952:: then asshole Bush comes out with
the "axis of evil" slap in the face
Chris OConnor:: Michael - very cool!
ZachSylvanus:: The agreement was, they shut down
their nuclear reactors, we send them fuel.
ZachSylvanus:: We stopped sending them fuel
howbloom:: who made that
Jeremy1952:: Then we prepare for a war of agression
against iraq; what are the other nations
ZombieHatesYou:: That was very cool, Huahua.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's my fault
howbloom:: it is, excuse
my language, utterly fucking gorgeous
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks howard
Jeremy1952:: who we , rather bush, deliberately
insults supposed to make of that?
howbloom:: michael, what
do you do for a lving?
Johnny Neuron:: Jeremy: true, but I think NK has
gone a little farther than Bush in terms of propaganda
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a budding web designer
howbloom:: I want to
do more things like that myself
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, this is what triggered
the N. Koreans to do what they're doing...but
it is irrational. Bush had no idea they would
act so crazy
howbloom:: I've turned
the whole history of the cosmos into poetry
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: waiting for my girlfriend
to move here from sydney so we can start a business
Chris OConnor:: LOL Bloom
Jeremy1952:: Law of unindtended consequences
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--I'd be happy
to help you out with flash
pctacitus:: NK is more like Sparta
Jeremy1952:: A good reason to be cautious
pctacitus:: closed off
howbloom:: several musicians
are talking about making it into music--Joan Jett
and David Was
Johnny Neuron:: NK has a very long history of
doing this sort of thing
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my site
if you ever want to contact me
Jeremy1952:: How , by the way, are they acting
howbloom:: and I want
to do a Big Bang Tango stage show
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see what
you're talking about howard
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - hind sight is always
howbloom:: what you've
done, michael, is a step in that direction
howbloom:: a very powerful step
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sounds interesting...it
reminds me of a book I read a while back, but
I forgot the title
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thank you
howbloom:: have you seen,
no of course you haven't its private
Jeremy1952:: We are threatening Iraq; we put NK
and iraq in the same cateogory; they are preparing
an nuclear defense
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the sort of
thing I'd like to do more of
Jeremy1952:: against a nuclear power that has
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: well then
Johnny Neuron:: Is it defense or provocation?
Jeremy1952:: It is the U.S. that is acting "crazy"
Chris OConnor:: To those that don't know, Howard
Bloom is famous in the music industry and worked
with Rolling Stone magazine and stars like Prince
and Michael Jackson
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, it worked this
Johnny Neuron:: Sending missles over the ocean
on the day of the S Korean presidential inauguration
ZachSylvanus:: The thing that concerns me most
about this series of wars on evil is the patriot
Johnny Neuron:: Virtually shooting down our fighter
howbloom:: well, I was
often in the offices of Rolling Stone but I didn't
work for the magazine
Chris OConnor:: Zach - explain
Jeremy1952:: Well, it isn't hindsight yet; the
war hasn't started yet. Forsight: we are fucking
up the world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had an acid trip
in my 20's that would have made a great movie.
It had science rap as the sountrack
ZachSylvanus:: The patriot acts are ostensibly
to protect our freedoms
ZachSylvanus:: And ourselves
howbloom:: our best alley
right now in defending our freedoms from the patriot
howbloom:: is a man who has bush by the balls
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I disagree, but sure
hope I'm not wrong.
howbloom:: Pat Robertson,
my old nemesis
Chris OConnor:: Pat deserves to be in prison
ZachSylvanus:: The Patriot Act 2 involves overturning
Katz vs.....the federal government, I think
Johnny Neuron:: Really Howard? How so?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just tell people Ashcroft
ordered a buttload of microchips
ZachSylvanus:: er, think
Sephirah Geburah:: - Howard - If you could give
one piece of advice for someone seriously entering
the music industry, what would it be?
Chris OConnor:: anyone who dumbs down the general
population is a criminal
howbloom:: Pat Robertson
made two key statements a month or two ago
Jeremy1952:: That's the other thing that scares
the shit out of me; suppose we win the peace as
well as the war... but have
howbloom:: look at the
violence in the Koran, stop papering it over
pctacitus:: arrest all the teachers then
howbloom:: and two
Jeremy1952:: turned into a theocracy by then
cinnamon321:: I agree Chris.
NaddiaAoC:: Yeah, the general population is dumb
howbloom:: our civil
rights have never been in greater danger
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, I am worried about
ZachSylvanus:: Howard, that's not really a viable
Johnny Neuron:: Look at all the violence in the
Jeremy1952:: If we destroy our liberties to win
a war, what have we won?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the bit of poetry at
the end of your attraction page is verra nice
howbloom:: we must protect
them for all we're worth
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon
howbloom:: yes, the bible
is one of the most violent books around
ZachSylvanus:: We can't argue that they're evil
because of their bible
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I very much agree
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want an army of mimes
at my disposal
ZachSylvanus:: Ours isn't any better
pctacitus:: there is a book on the Battles of
cinnamon321:: The general population is ignorant,
howbloom:: so is the
founding story of western civilization--the Iliad
and the Odyssey
Chris OConnor:: lol Michael
howbloom:: and so is
the founding story of inida
howbloom:: the Mahavarata
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I've only read some of
pctacitus:: don't forget Hesiod Howard
howbloom:: all are filled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you maintain
control in a fluid chaotic system?
howbloom:: with the demonization
of other human beings
Johnny Neuron:: Howard: how do you feel about
the posturing the US is taking in
relation to the other great powers such as Germany,
France and Russia?
Chris OConnor:: Julian James posits that our species
lacked consciousness at the time of both pieces
Jeremy1952:: I've found cascade works well, Michael
howbloom:: systems are
hierarchical at every level of the cosmos
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to get at the
root of projecting evil in all people...
howbloom:: animate and
Chris OConnor:: yes
ZombieHatesYou:: I'm quite hestitant to call Pat
Roberston an ally of mine. I think he's got other
things moving him...Things I'd personally not
want around me.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what cascade are we
ZachSylvanus:: afk a few minutes....
howbloom:: and right
now we need what some of you guys have said
Jeremy1952:: To control a chaotic fluid system.
Pour in a little cascade.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the end-timers scare
me in general
Chris OConnor:: what was that?
howbloom:: the craziest
niggah on the block
Chris OConnor:: hmmm
howbloom:: the alpha
Chris OConnor:: ahh
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cascade bleach? lol
howbloom:: on a global
Chris OConnor:: explain Howard
howbloom:: so we can
continue an incredible progress we've made
NaddiaAoC:: Me too, Michael.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when rock stars rule
the world, we'll be fine
howbloom:: via cell phones
and the WWW
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: politicians trying
to be rock stars doesn't work for me
howbloom:: we are so
global it's amazing
howbloom:: and we're about to become even more
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I got a book called
Smart Mobs...need to read that
Chris OConnor:: Howard - if we could conquer the
barbarians our species could do incredible things...ohh..and
also conquer mysticism
howbloom:: my friends
who marched for peace a week ago
cinnamon321:: *laughs at the thought of a politician
trying to be a rock star*
Jeremy1952:: Yea! David Bowie for president! Vote
for Clinton 'cause he plays the sax
howbloom:: were amazed
howbloom:: by the fact that they were marching
simultaneously in 60 cities
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon, they DO.
Politicians use PR consultants who study what
makes entertainers popular...then they apply that
Chris OConnor:: Howard - mob mentality
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nodding at howard
howbloom:: they were
living off the fruit that hierarchical violence
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the premise
of Smart Mobs
howbloom:: relax the
hierarchy too greatly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: groups organizing spontaneously
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Jeremy
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - wow...excellent point
howbloom:: and we will
have an end to cell phones the www electricity
howbloom:: social organization
cinnamon321:: Michael, I know, I was merely having
a thought of the stereotypical poltician in kiss
howbloom:: stores and
howbloom:: let me tell you the worst case scenario
howbloom:: or one of them
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was wondering for
a while if the species has some kind of spontaneous
organizing program that causes a breaking open
of the tribal identity and a larger sense of family
howbloom:: you are Osama
ZombieHatesYou:: I knew Michael was Osama.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm in complete agreement.
I'm a bit of a pessimist though...and fear we
will never succeed in controlling the rampant
idiocy of the masses. I feel our downfall is inevitable
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: no, don't go blowing
anything up for me thanks
howbloom:: you know that
you are building your stardom, your influence
howbloom:: via pr
ladyfractal:: Good evening all!
howbloom:: and you know
that the biggest pr stunt you've pulled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi fractal
Johnny Neuron:: I tend to agree Chris
ZombieHatesYou:: Hey Frac
howbloom:: is the destruction
of the world trade center
cinnamon321:: hey frac
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he wants a revolution
Chris OConnor:: ok
ladyfractal:: Hey Michael! Hey Zombie.
Chris OConnor:: I'm with ya
howbloom:: your next
step is this
Chris OConnor:: Hey Ladyfractal
Jeremy1952:: Howard is expoinding "worst
case scenario", fractal
ladyfractal:: Hi Chris.
howbloom:: nuke twelve
major cities in the united states
ladyfractal:: thanks jeremy.
NaddiaAoC:: Hi Lady
eliminate the usa
Chris OConnor:: Howard - we would be in the Dark
howbloom:: turn it into
a glowing wasteland to set an example
howbloom:: to show that you are Osama the Great
howbloom:: that God is all powerful
Chris OConnor:: And this "worst case scenario"
is a very real possibility
pctacitus:: that would crash the world economy
howbloom:: and that nonbelievers
should tremble at your feet
Chris OConnor:: pctactus - very true
Johnny Neuron:: Israeli newspapers reported this
morning that Osama bin Laden has been captured
pctacitus:: kill tens of millions
howbloom:: you do not
have to worry about nuclear fallout or nuclear
Sephirah Geburah:: Ha! That could never happen!
We where promised to have a missle defense shield!
(hehe... Yes, im being sarcastic)
ladyfractal:: johnny: that hasn't been confirmed
Jeremy1952:: if he could have done it, he would
have done it. No way he would have settled for
jet fuel if he could have gotten hold of nukes
howbloom:: because you
have Allah on your side
Johnny Neuron:: lady: true
howbloom:: and to quote
one of Osama's alleys, this earth
Chris OConnor:: Johnny - Hmm...I'll believe that
wheh I see his head on a stake
howbloom:: is a mere
speck of dust in Allah's eye
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alternatively: you
are a fundamentalist Christian with the best of
motives...things get sticky and you feel compelled
to use a nuclear first strike...
howbloom:: it is expendable
pctacitus:: if you die you go to paradise anyway
howbloom:: next step
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as believe the right
wing christians...God will give us a new earth
Chris OConnor:: Howard - You're making me want
to read the Koran/Quran
in Islam these days the big subject of conversation
is the reconquest of Europe
Chris OConnor:: ...just to understand
howbloom:: you see, God
promised that Islam would triumph
howbloom:: in two major places
Jeremy1952:: Yea, the difference, as Michael implied,
is that Bush actually has nukes
ladyfractal:: howard-- how dangerous do you think
it is that all three monotheistic faiths seem
to be driving all-out for war and *at least* two
of those three have nukes?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the Koran clearly
states that conquest of infidels is Islams destiny
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: book religions really
poisoned the planet...I keep telling them it's
idolatry...but they just...don't...lisetn
Chris OConnor:: Avatar!
Chris OConnor:: Welcome
howbloom:: it took 700
years before the prediction about constantinople
fell, but allah came through, right?
ladyfractal:: michael: no, of course not, they're
too busy reading their holy books
AvatarofPower:: hiya chris
howbloom:: and now allah
is bound to deliver Rome
howbloom:: which means all of Europe
howbloom:: nuke the us and
howbloom:: europe will capitulate
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this allah character
DocNancy:: Howard, you need to write all this
down and publish it.
howbloom:: it will beg
Jeremy1952:: Osama is one dangerous sonofabtich.
Terrorists are an infection on the planet. No
argument there... so
pctacitus:: we need to pull a St Jerome and we
write the religious texts then
howbloom:: and be willing
to live in justic and purity
howbloom:: according to god's law sharia
Jeremy1952:: we should be fighting terrorists,
not picking a target we think we can hit, and
ignoring the enemy.
howbloom:: and as part
of an islamic imperium that's global
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: women will be forced
to veil their nipples in public (
Johnny Neuron:: Howard: not all Muslims would
agree with these tactics
howbloom:: here's another
important bit of Osama's thinking
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Girls Gone Wild will
be a thing of the past...
Johnny Neuron:: Some are far more liberal and
peaceful than that
howbloom:: nation states
are a barbarous western creation
Johnny Neuron:: Dare I say most
howbloom:: god says that
the umma is universal
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: empathy is universal
howbloom:: it is a continuous
howbloom:: a planet without boundaries
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it is a conscious planet
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - don't you think Saddam
has something planned with his WoMD?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: osama is on to something
ladyfractal:: howard: Oh I see where this is going...which
means a Pax Islam
howbloom:: living under
God's own law
Jeremy1952:: Don't know, Chris.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, a trapped animal
will do some crazy things
howbloom:: national boundaries
separating afghanistan, egypt, syria, malaysia,
these are artificial slices
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Bush
is unconsciously trying to provoke attacks against
howbloom:: designed to
weakine the ummah
howbloom:: in other worlds Osama
Jeremy1952:: I think the message should be this:
use one, try to use one, and you get slapped like
Johnny Neuron:: I think the key might be for the
US to allign with the more moderate side of the
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: use a nuke to kill
a mosquito and you may face impeachment
howbloom:: osama's interpretation
of Islam makes the world one global caliphate
howbloom:: Osama, the wireless warrior
pctacitus:: what moderate side?
Jeremy1952:: But the message that we attack regardless?
howbloom:: has a clear,
howbloom:: of a global new world order
pctacitus:: Where is it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in a species
unconscious program that will overrule the divisions
of nations and religions...but whether that can
stop destruction is another thing
pctacitus:: I haven't seen it.
Sephirah Geburah:: Damnit... Why in the hell cant
we have people like Howard for President?!?!?
Johnny Neuron:: There is definately a moderate
portion of Muslims who are opposed to terrorism
howbloom:: so we have
the choices of living under an islamic hegemony,
one in which most of us here would be dead
Johnny Neuron:: I've talked with some of them
howbloom:: and pax amercana
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Saddam is a sick bastard
who has lined up his own people and gunned them
down....and poisoneed them
Jeremy1952:: Oh my god, Sephirah, no way!
Johnny Neuron:: Some are US allies
howbloom:: or a pax sinica
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the limbic systems
of the world are feeding back
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Sephirah
ladyfractal:: howard: Laid out like that, it certainly
seems to be a very clear vision. I have a question
Sephirah Geburah:: hehe
pctacitus:: like Saudi arabia?
howbloom:: and those
of us who try to stop this war as we did in 1905
Jeremy1952:: Yes, Chris, this is true.
howbloom:: and in 1936
howbloom:: will have blood on our hands
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - we owe it to the Iraqi
people to remove the tyrant
Jeremy1952:: Oh bullshit.
Johnny Neuron:: So you are for a war with Iraq
howbloom:: the blood
of between 200 million and six billion human beings
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's a moral inversion
though...the ones who kill are heroes and the
ones who don't kill are killers...
howbloom:: that's my
speech, now let me read what you
howbloom:: 've been saying
ladyfractal:: howard: okay
Chris OConnor:: Ladyfractal - what was the question?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we trigger
something just as bad as what we're trying to
avoid? we'll have blood on our hands then too
Jeremy1952:: There are dictators all over the
world; we've defended much worse, time and again.
howbloom:: I know Jeremy
is going to totally disagree
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Are you saving this chat periodically?
Chris OConnor:: Micahel - should we freeze out
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if the lessons
we're learning from history fail to work in a
global system that approaches viscosity?
Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - yep, no worries
ladyfractal:: chris: well, my first question has
to do with the three monotheistic religions, two
of which are *confirmed* members of the nuclear
club goign to war.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: linear thinking may
not be the trick here
NaddiaAoC:: Ok good
howbloom:: To answer
Johnny's question yes, bring on this war as rapidly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be playing chess
on a Go board
howbloom:: despite the
fact that I hate war
cinnamon321:: according to mass media reports
i see that iraqis do not like saddams leadership,
but since he is a dictator many of them fear to
speak out unless they leave the country. perhaps
if we do not go to war they will overthrow saddam
Johnny Neuron:: I agree
howbloom:: no killing
of a single human being is justified
ZachSylvanus:: back, sorry
howbloom:: Saddam is
a distraction, an example, that's all
Jeremy1952:: To say "war on iraq is good
for iraqis" ignores the little detail of
the 100,000 or more of them who will DIE in the
ladyfractal:: chris: My second question has to
do with with people in the West not understanding
that Islam is a *fundamentally* different culture/civilization
and not one most of us would feel good living
Johnny Neuron:: But I feel that the US must do
it's best to not make this a "war against
DocNancy:: yes, but how does oil enter into all
this, and it does.
Jeremy1952:: If they wanted to die, they could
oppose Saddam themselves
ladyfractal:: chris: but I'll hold that one
Johnny Neuron:: Boundries must be set; demarcations
howbloom:: hang on a
second, let's discuss the iraqis who will di
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - the problem is every
time a coup is attempted Saddam makes such an
example of the perpetrators that the whole nation
lives in mortal fear of even appearing to be anti-Saddam
ZombieHatesYou:: Perhaps I am not following this
like I should be, but I'm not sure how bringing
on the war with Iraq as fast as possible will
in turn harm Osama's 'vision.'
howbloom:: saddam has
deliberately put his weapons under schools and
howbloom:: one story out of England says that
AvatarofPower:: Jeremy.... how could they possibly
stand up to the current iraqi regime
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so will the arab world
blame us for civilian deaths?
howbloom:: western experts
to build a subway system under baghdad and is
using it to
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - But 100,000 dead now
to save 4 million in the long run. I'm not saying
I agree, but I think this is Howards point
ladyfractal:: michael: you *bet* they will
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will the iraqis really
be "dancing in the street"?
Jeremy1952:: Well, they can't. I'm not saying
they should. I'm saying, they'll be just as dead
if we kill them
howbloom:: shuttle his
weapons of mass destruction around on trains
ZombieHatesYou:: Of course, Michael...We're the
Big Bad Guy...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--but how accurate
IS that math?
Johnny Neuron:: What are the chances of the US
using nuclear weapons against Iraq?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will we become the
evil we fear? will our culture survive that?
AvatarofPower:: very, very, very, very slim, Johnny
howbloom:: a contact
of mine in the State Department, an Islam expert
who has spent most of his adult life in Islamic
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moral ambiguity broke
a lot of heads open in the 60's
Jeremy1952:: The thing is, chris, the 100,000
dead now is almost a sure thing; the assertiion
that less willdie in the long run
Chris OConnor:: Michael - Approximately 87.3%
of all statistics are made up on the spot
howbloom:: says that
the bomb shelter filled with civilians we devastated
cinnamon321:: lol Chris
Jeremy1952:: with the war than without it is extremely
howbloom:: was a cover
for the bunkers below
ladyfractal:: johnny: depends upon whether or
not the Iraqi military uses them on US troops
and how serious teh casualties are from such an
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about what
our actions will do to our culture. The "culture
wars" could become volatile.
howbloom:: can I throw
in another fact about the ultimate Osama scenario?
Sephirah Geburah:: Yep!
howbloom:: which can
happen with or without osama
Chris OConnor:: Please do
howbloom:: has the Islamic bomb
ladyfractal:: johnny: if the Iraqis use them and
if there are high casualties, US doctrine
dictates answering WoMD in kind
Chris OConnor:: Islamis bomb?
Chris OConnor:: Hmmm
howbloom:: the nuclear
bomb all Islam feels is God's gift
Chris OConnor:: thats punny
howbloom:: to the Islamic
world, not just to one country
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to arrest this
howbloom:: Pakistan also
howbloom:: three submarines
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree
howbloom:: very special
NaddiaAoC:: Michael: I agree, but I think you'll
have a problem finding big enough handcuffs.
ZachSylvanus:: What's your point?
howbloom:: stealth submarines,
next generation submarines
Chris OConnor:: Nuke subs?
ladyfractal:: michael: would LOVE to go back and
time and slap whoever thought up monotheism upside
their foolish head
ZachSylvanus:: It's an arms race, Howard, you
should know that
ZachSylvanus:: Keep up or fall behind
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mentioned these
scenarios before...I'm wondering what the rest
of us chess pieces should be doing in the midst
of this global chess/go game?
howbloom:: built with
ZachSylvanus:: It's merely an evolution of civilizations
howbloom:: and it has
the shipyard to build more
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, monotheists don't
play well with others
ZachSylvanus:: Nobody wants to be the losing party,
giving in to selection
howbloom:: these are
missile carriers and pakistan also has
howbloom:: medium range ballistic missiles
howbloom:: now imagine that Osam is dead or arrested
Chris OConnor:: Howard - are you proposing we
add Pakistan to the "Axis of Evil?"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most of us won't be
able to influence all this very much...but what
kinds of things can we do with our little bit
of the superorganism?
howbloom:: and you are
a fierce Osama
Chris OConnor:: Ok
howbloom:: a protege
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--they will after
Musharraf gets assassinated
ladyfractal:: howard: are you saying that it is
no longer a question of "if" but a question
of "when" the united states has a city
Jeremy1952:: (the very protege that the U.S. helped
him recruit, but I digress)
howbloom:: you lead his
wireless warriors in something that is likely
to happen any day now
NaddiaAoC:: Monotheism is like King of the Hill.
My God can beat up your god.
howbloom:: the overthrow
of Pervez Musharref
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - you're right though
howbloom:: you now have
three subs with 10,000 mile ranges
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: monotheism ate my homework
howbloom:: you can now
nuke any city in America
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Michael
Johnny Neuron:: Forgive my skeptical ide: but
this is the "ultimate" Osama scenario...not
the likely scenario; Pakistan remains a strong
howbloom:: either from the
Chris OConnor:: 10k is long enough to hit anywhere
from the oceans
howbloom:: or from the
ladyfractal:: johnny: strong is not the word that
I think I would use
Chris OConnor:: 27k is world circumference I believe
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I say we nuke our own
cities in defiance.
Sephirah Geburah:: Michaelangelo! You bring up
a great question of "What can we do"
I suggest we base a long term forum discusion
around that.... There are so many beautiful and
powerful minds gathered on this website... We
just need to establish some goals and focus...
Chris OConnor:: Michael - omg
howbloom:: and Osams
says "we love death more than you love life"
Jeremy1952:: And I think it supports my side more
than howards anyway... to show that other countries
are dangerous; yes;
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree seph
howbloom:: you westerners
Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...this scares
the shit out of me
Johnny Neuron:: It was Pakistani officials that
brought in the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks
howbloom:: you turn your
women into prosititutes
Jeremy1952:: that is exactly why we have to play
nice... why we have to promote cooperation
howbloom:: you let them
parade their legs on the streets
howbloom:: and you are foolish
ladyfractal:: johnny: Musharref is playing a very
cagey political game because he thinks it will
keep him in power and give him some legs against
NaddiaAoC:: LMAO Michael. You're a nut!
howbloom:: you only have
two or three children per family
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in the middle of all
these worst case scenarios, I'd like to at least
play some fun games with culture
howbloom:: we treat our
Sephirah Geburah:: I feel so helpless as much
as I care about these issues...
Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - you have the ability
to create a thread about anything you want...and
I think we would all like to discuss this further
ladyfractal:: johnny: But Pakistan is an ally
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we treat our women
howbloom:: we veil them
and keep them in the home
cinnamon321:: IMHO the problem that people have
is lack of exposure to other cultures. I think
if more individuals were exposed to people of
different cultures and had positive experiences
we wouldn't have as many problems.
howbloom:: we free them
Johnny Neuron:: But an ally nonthesless
Chris OConnor:: (Now how do we get Howard to pop
in once and awhile and post? hmmm)
ladyfractal:: howard; shouldn't that be "we
treat women like *property*"
pctacitus:: The horror and the implacable nature
of the Wars of Religion was not only that the
soldiers on each side believed Heaven awaited
them if they fell in battle, they also believed
that they owed it to their adversaries to send
them to hell. - Ernle
Bradford, The Great Siege: Malta 1565
howbloom:: and we make
them pregnant just as god wants them to be
Sephirah Geburah:: neat! I will do so
Jeremy1952:: Mabye it would be worse, cinnamon.
Sephirah Geburah:: hehe
AvatarofPower:: exactly Johnny... i think there's
a serious differnece between the Islamic Fundamentalist
world and the more moderate muslims
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard will be magnetically
attracted to our group, he cannot resist
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I totally agree!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he will be assimilated
howbloom:: so we have
four wives with severn children each
Jeremy1952:: Maybe if the west new how fucked
up islamic culture really is, there'd be more
Johnny Neuron:: Avatar: Thank you!
Johnny Neuron:: A huge difference
howbloom:: and every
mother who believes in Allah is willing to sacrifice
three of her children
howbloom:: as martyrs for Allah
Sephirah Geburah:: hehehehe and our western culture
ISNT f*cked up?!
AvatarofPower:: BUT... that differernce has the
potential to rapidly disappear
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, have you read
any of DeMause's stuff?
Jeremy1952:: Yea, the moderates who hack children's
vaginas up with dullknives
Johnny Neuron:: When we slip into the fundamentalist
mindset, I worry
ladyfractal:: jeremy: that isn't going to happen
suga'...most college educated
Westerners have NO sense of what they are apart
of or what they are tearing down
howbloom:: more than
willing, she celibratses the victory of their
ZombieHatesYou:: I think when we denounce such
things as how the Muslims "treat their women,"
we are falling into the same trap that we are
saying we despise about *them.*
howbloom:: so if we nuke
you and you retaliate, it will be useless
cinnamon321:: Jeremy, Islamic culture is fucked
up to us because we didnt grow up with it. American
culture is fucked up to Muslims who know nothing
AvatarofPower:: the moderates who hack childern's
penises up, what?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I heard of an interesting
program that connects Israelis and Palestinians
howbloom:: wipe out afghanistan,
we don't care
howbloom:: we can afford to lose 200 million to
400 million people
Jeremy1952:: The lovely arabs who murder rape
victims and celebrate the rapists
ladyfractal:: jeremy: when you have college-educated
Westerners, decrying the Enlightenment and saying
that scientific rationalism is just *one* in a
number of equally valid ways of viewing the world,
you know we're in trouble
howbloom:: in order to
assert god's will
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so we threaten to nuke
howbloom:: and to do
what he has ordered us to
Johnny Neuron:: Nuke Mecca? Come on
howbloom:: torture you
and annihilate you
Jeremy1952:: I reject your relativism, cinnamon.
there are specific actions which are wrong.
howbloom:: two words
he has used in the Koran
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - good point
cinnamon321:: Not all Arabs do. There are more
liberal Arabs in many places.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, some consultant
close to Bush once talked about nuking mecca
howbloom:: any person
who does not abide by those two words is a slacker
howbloom:: Allah will never forgive
howbloom:: allah demands that you fight and kill
on his behalf
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send internet
porn to the Islamic world and expose fundamentalist
muslims who download it
howbloom:: those who
stay behind and wait
pctacitus:: such a kind deity
howbloom:: for the West
to topple of its own might
ZachSylvanus:: No less kind than any deity of
our own history
ZombieHatesYou:: So, I think I've got this now.
This is a matter of God. They think they have
God on their sides...that God will protect them.
So they have no fear. Nothing we can do to them
is going to deter them. Allah demands they kill
howbloom:: will be damend
and will never see the fruits of paradise
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the knights of the
crusades killed to gain forgiveness
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will do anything
to feel pure
Johnny Neuron:: But Howard...among all three great
monotheisms you have your right wingers and your
left wingers....the left wingers have always been
in a minority
howbloom:: ok, now let
me read your thoughts for a bit
cinnamon321:: I do agree that they way rape victims
are treated in certain Middle Eastern areas is
wrong, I just think a lot of Arabs probably think
it is too.
howbloom:: I've been
typing my fingers off
ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand the point you
are making...but I have to say that I disagree
with it. It *may* be utterly imperialist for me
to believe that women have a right to self-determination,
but I cannot back down off of that ideal.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: let's all convert to
Sephirah Geburah:: I remember reading a sobering
exerpt in the Lucifer Principle about the Islam
culture, and the sleeping giant that it is...
When do you believe this giant will wake up, stretch
his arms, and get some breakfast?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: then we can assimilate
ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: I'm not saying I agree
with how they treat their women. I am just saying
that denouncing that at every turn and insisting
you are right...is the same thing they are doing.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--when we appear
Johnny Neuron:: I'm not ready to brandish the
Muslim world, en toto, as extremists like Bin
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I am very curious if
you see in Christianity that same problems that
you see in Islam...
ZombieHatesYou:: We are no better than they are.
It's just our ass on the line, so we must fight
for what *we* think is right.
howbloom:: the giant
AvatarofPower:: Sephirah, that giant is going
to wake up and realize that maybe an arm, and
a foot, and a few other parts are sick and tired
of its bullshit, I think...
Chris OConnor:: Howard - or is it a matter of
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I woudln't brand Germans
as evil...their culture just went through a crazy
phase. Right now, the islamic cultures and our
culture are both in a weird phase
ladyfractal:: zombie: Hmmm...perhaps.
Jeremy1952:: Of course we are better, Zombie
ZombieHatesYou:: I'm just trying to point out
that while we believe they are wrong...they believe
*we* are wrong. So how are we any better?
howbloom:: and is getting
its strength day by day
ZombieHatesYou:: It's equal.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our own fundamentalists
may act up
Sephirah Geburah:: I hope Avatar
cinnamon321:: I agree Micheal
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: No. I don't think so.
Johnny Neuron:: Good point Michael
Jeremy1952:: Because they really ARE wrong, zombie.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the giant is Islam?
howbloom:: look, Zombie
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But they don't think they
are wrong. Just like we don't think we are wrong.
Do you see what I am getting at?
howbloom:: I can speak
osama speak because within his framework of belief
he is right
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make some
muslim entertainers famous so nobody will want
to see them die
howbloom:: he is not
howbloom:: he is courageous
Jeremy1952:: Yes, but you are wrong.
howbloom:: he is heroic
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.
howbloom:: he is probably
the greatest idealist on this planet today
ladyfractal:: zombie: okay, I don't think its
equal because they are, in fact, going against
a principle of universal...truly universal...human
rights. If I understand it correctly, MOST Islamic
nations do not allow women to vote and do not
see women as human enough to vote
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: inside osama is a screaming
infant who wants his mommy to forgive hi8m
Jeremy1952:: The wholesale repression of women
is wrong. It isn't relativist. It isn't negotiable.
howbloom:: he is willing
to give up his life for what he believes in
ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Allah says that is the
way it works.
ladyfractal:: zombie: Our culture went through
it and our culture was *wrong* at that point.
cinnamon321:: Shakira is part Arabic, I think
but everyone sees her as a Latina and she is marketed
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm willing to give
up his life too
Jeremy1952:: One memeber of the species does not
have the right to opress and kill the other gender
howbloom:: but if that
means the death of free speech, equal rights for
women, toleran, pluralism
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I do see your point.
howbloom:: cell phones
howbloom:: and computers for the masses
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you kill cell
Jeremy1952:: So: they think we are wrong for pluralism.
We are right, and they are wrong.
howbloom:: then I am
willing to make a moral jusgement
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that cat's out of the
howbloom:: and defend
the way of life I beieve in
Johnny Neuron:: So what is the solution Howard?
Or IS there a solution?
Jeremy1952:: Oh shit, now me and howard are agreeing.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, what would
you say we ordinary folks can do collectively
aside from cheering Bush on?
Chris OConnor:: LOL
ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand what you are
saying...but I cannot be a relativist when it
comes to issues like viewing women as full-human
beings. I just cannot see how there is room to
negotiate on that matter.
howbloom:: if I were
living in Osama's world I would never be allowe
to think and write
ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not saying I am against this
war business. I just want people to recognize
what it's really about.
Jeremy1952:: Actually at a deeper level I think
we do pretty much agree... it is tactics, not
objectivs, where we differ.
howbloom:: this discussion
would not be happening
howbloom:: and none of us would be waht we are
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the solution is for
boundaries to dissolve and a great sacrifice to
show humanity why it's impossible to impose boundaries
on an emergent system
Jeremy1952:: Now wait just a minute, Michael.
howbloom:: trying with
all our might to contribute through our discusions,
our brainstorming and our disagreements
Johnny Neuron:: And compromise?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or just for people
to organize and communicate across boundaries
until they understand the Beast
howbloom:: the the betterment
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you should come speak
at the Atheist Alliance convention here in FL
in april - Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins
will be there. Your views on Islam would make
for an incredible presentation
ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Obviously I view women
as 'full human beings.' You know me. I'm always
blaring about something or another. And no, I
do not agree with the way the Muslim women are
treated. I just think it would be better all around
if people realized that *everyone* thinks they
are right when it comes to this stuff.
Jeremy1952:: Where would we be if protozoans hand't
imposed boundaries on their genomes?
AvatarofPower:: its called a Unified Human Intelligence,
ZachSylvanus:: Howard, need I remind you that
in the Islamic world, it nurtured and advanced
the learning of Greece and Rome for six hundred
years, until our own culture forcefully took it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think westerners
and arabs need to communicate on a human level
as well as a strategic level
ZombieHatesYou:: Whether they are *actually* right
about the issue is neither here nor there.
ladyfractal:: zombie: Okay, I see your point
AvatarofPower:: and we're working on it...
howbloom:: Chris--I was
invited to one atheist symposium
howbloom:: but I
ladyfractal:: zombie: I'm sorry I thought you
were arguing a slightly different point than the
one you were making
Jeremy1952:: Zombie, we KNOW everyone thinks they
are right. That's why it comes
down to tactics. We need to WIN
Johnny Neuron:: Zach: these are different times,
Chris OConnor:: Howard - they probably cannot
Johnny Neuron:: different Muslims
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the boundaries dissolve
inside so that you can understand how to prevent
them from dissolving outside
howbloom:: I've been
housebound with illness for fifteen years
howbloom:: and do all my appearances via video
howbloom:: or electronic means
Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow...I didn't know.
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But while you are so hellbent
on winning, do you see why they are so hellbent
Jeremy1952:: I'm not opposed to the war because
it is morally wrong, I'm opposed because it is
howbloom:: they weren't
up for that
ZachSylvanus:: It's not the religion that is against
learning, etc., it's the leaders
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: reality is too slow,
I like internet
ZombieHatesYou:: I never said this war was morally
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I never meet anyone
howbloom:: to address
the issue of Moslems who disagree with Osama
ZachSylvanus:: Leaders that have taken power much
like Germany and Hitler, because of the way in
which the Islamic countries have developed
Jeremy1952:: I'm hellbent on winning BECAUSE they
are hellbent on winning. If they were willing
to live and let live, so would I!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this war is morally
howbloom:: in the Islamic
world, as in Hitler's German world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those who can survive
moral ambiguity without going insane will have
something to offer
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.
howbloom:: they are not
allowed to speak their mind
Jeremy1952:: Nope, nope, I didn't mean to imply
that you did, Zombie. That was more of a general
Chris OConnor:: Howard - if you have any interest
in making a video presentation at this convention
I would be happy to help you with it....I know
the people in charge
AvatarofPower:: mich: exactly... the internet...
universal computer networking is the key to that
increase in communication that you're talking
howbloom:: the leaders
of moderate pluralist subcultures have been killed
ZachSylvanus:: I agree that if it comes down to
it, I would rather see them paying the price than
us, but I'd rather not think that we're at such
a dead end as to be left with that as our only
howbloom:: nearly every
writer who has gotten out of line has literally
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay. I know you think I'm
wrong...but do you at least see my point, even
if you don't agree with it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send bullet
proof vests to moderate islamic writers
howbloom:: my friends
in Islam, the pluralists and moderists I meet
with in this bedroom
ZachSylvanus:: Much as those who spoke out against
howbloom:: have no voice
pctacitus:: remember rushdie anyone?
howbloom:: no spokesmen
ZombieHatesYou:: That's all I really want....for
people to see each other's points, even if we
Jeremy1952:: Actually when you rephrased your
position, I think I agreed.
ladyfractal:: zach; I'm not sure that we're *not*
at that point...as far as I can tell, the Islamic
facists are *not* interested in compromising with
AvatarofPower:: being able to link directly to
a person's mind and thoughts breaks down all the
barriers of WHAT a human is and brings forward
WHO that human is
howbloom:: they are free
to speak because they are here in America, not
back home in Bangla Desh or Pakistan
howbloom:: we need to free them to speak
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree, Avatar
howbloom:: which is something
I'm working on
Johnny Neuron left
ladyfractal:: howard: have you read Huntington's
"Clash of Civilizations"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make them
fall in love with us through media
ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Do you feel justified in
compromising at the blade of a sword?
Johnny Neuron joined
Glory Matthews left
cinnamon321:: wb Johnny
ZachSylvanus:: Because essentially we're asking
aquiescence with a knife at their throats
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Yes, MTV will bring
AvatarofPower:: or at least understand us...
howbloom:: I agree with
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we are the world's
howbloom:: yes, this
is the biggest choice point of history
Johnny Neuron left
howbloom:: any of us
will see in our lives
Jeremy1952:: Well boys and girls, men and women,
your honor, members of the jury; if I am to have
ANY chance at sex tomorrow, I'd better
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe musicians need
to have a video dialogue with Islam
ZachSylvanus:: It's a large choice point in history,
but I wouldn't say the biggest
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Springsteen sings "Please
don't kill us"
Jeremy1952:: go spend some time with my lovely
wife, who is at this very moment feeling abandoned
ladyfractal:: zach: Perhaps...although I'm not
howbloom:: if we mistreat
it and make the wrong decisions we may well determine
the fate of many generations down the line
Glory Matthews joined
AvatarofPower:: lol... enjoy yoursef, Jeremy
Sephirah Geburah:: Thanks for your time Jeremy!
You are fun to read.
ZombieHatesYou:: 'Night, Jer.
ZachSylvanus:: It's the same choice every set
of clashing cultures must make
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: night jer
Chris OConnor:: Night Jeremy
ZachSylvanus:: Night Jeremy
howbloom:: jeremy, g'night
Glory Matthews:: night Jer
cinnamon321:: night jer
Jeremy1952:: See y'all next time! Howard, thanks
1,000,000 for coming back, in spite of nags like
Jeremy1952:: : )
ladyfractal:: howard: I'm not sure I fully agreed
with Huntington. although he invokes you at the
end of his book, talking about how Westerners
need to recognize that we are part of Western
AvatarofPower:: true, zach... but its the biggest
one *we'll* see
howbloom:: thank you,
Chris OConnor:: Howard - how often do you make
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm part of a species
organism, it's not western or american
ZachSylvanus:: But to claim it's the Biggest in
History is to bastardize cultures that have come
howbloom:: video presentations?
ladyfractal:: michael: yes, you are...but at the
same time, you really *are* a Westerner
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: whatever I'm part of,
it's emerging globally and not in one place
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--I'm IN the West
howbloom:: easy, when
someone wnats to hire me to give a speech in Amsterdam
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not necessarily identified
howbloom:: they send
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you said you do presentations
howbloom:: and we tape
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: or we do it
live via telephone
ladyfractal:: michael: your mindset is very different,
I think, than someone from Chinese or Islamic
ladyfractal:: michael: your grounding assumptions,
I think, are different
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady, I'm sure there
are people like me over there
howbloom:: doing it live
via webcam is something I've done but it's primitive
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know I have counterparts
Chris OConnor:: A video would be the best method
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there is a me in Iran,
a me in China etc
howbloom:: it is so far
AvatarofPower:: heh... talk to Steve Mann
howbloom:: what you're
saying is right
Chris OConnor:: I don't think the Atheist Alliance
has much of a budget
howbloom:: so very right
howbloom:: but the you in Iraq or the you in Indonesia
ladyfractal:: michael: Oh, I'm sure that there
are people in other civilizations who are more
like Westerners than of other cultures. Hell,
you know me, I practice a Japanese interpretation
of an originally hindu religion...so there's cross-fertilization
howbloom:: doesn't have
the freedom to be you
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the me in Iraq is hiding
in a basemenet
howbloom:: so much so
that, get this
Chris OConnor:: Michael - true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: of course, I'm in a
howbloom:: the intellectual
hear to the Islamic world is Egypt
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I'll let you out next
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb
howbloom:: Do you know
how many new books are published in Cairo every
Sephirah Geburah:: How many?!
howbloom:: in the whole
nation of Egypt?
ladyfractal:: michael: But my *grounding* assumptions
are very different....for instance, that I would
turn away from the faith of my parents without
too much thought of what they would think about
it is, I think, very Western.
ZombieHatesYou:: Not very many, I'd wager...
Sephirah Geburah:: oh
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there really should
be a way to connect people in Egypt etc. with
Sephirah Geburah:: sheesh
howbloom:: now let's
look at Israel
howbloom:: it has a population less than a third
of the city of Cairo
ladyfractal:: michael: you see my point?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a dating service,
only for intellectuals
ZachSylvanus:: I think it's largely a matter of
the audience available to read, as well...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or kids
howbloom:: wanna guess
how many new books Israel publishes?
ladyfractal:: michael: that would be interesting
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: get kids on different
sides to communicate
ZombieHatesYou:: I've had close contact with some
Egyptians fresh off the boat, as it were. They
were completely horrified by me.
howbloom:: which means
that the huge, enormours brainpower
Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats amazing
howbloom:: the extraordinary
creativity of the Islamic world
ZachSylvanus:: What's the literacy rate of the
howbloom:: is being squashed
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - why?
howbloom:: the literacy
rate is low
ZachSylvanus:: And of Israel?
howbloom:: so is the
standard of living
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Why were they horrified
Glory Matthews:: Zomba, yes, but all it takes
is an average westerner to br horrified of one
who thinks freely.
howbloom:: literacy rate
in israel is high
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - yea
ZachSylvanus:: Standard of living?
AvatarofPower:: squelched, mashed, mushed and
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can Israel survive?
howbloom:: the standard
of living is the highest in the middle east
ladyfractal:: zach; the Israeli literacy rate
is in the upper 90's...like most (non-American)
AvatarofPower:: butcherd, slaughtered, ripped
up and smashed
howbloom:: if Israel
does not survive I will be very very upset
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Well, a few reasons...I
had dyed red hair, a kid and I wasn't married,
I smoke, I swear, I talk too much, and I was working
a hard physical labor job.
ZachSylvanus:: So should we really be surprised
that fewer books are published in a society where
they're less useful?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if any population doesn't
survive, I'll feel it
howbloom:: however it
is living on the edge of a razor blade
Chris OConnor:: Wouldn't Israel be conquered in
short order if the US were not supporting it?
howbloom:: barely haning
ZombieHatesYou:: They fluctuated between thinking
I was the Whore of Babylon to being in love with
ZachSylvanus:: not anymore, I don't think
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - LOL I gues that would
howbloom:: but remember
once upon a time france supplied israel with all
ZombieHatesYou:: You know me. I' m brash.
howbloom:: then france
sold out for arab oil
ZachSylvanus:: They've got enough technology and
scientific research that I think they could probably
hold their end up fairly well...
Chris OConnor:: hehe true
ladyfractal:: zach; the problem is that at one
point, the Islamic world was THE most enlightened,
scientific culture going...
howbloom:: and stopped
selling weapons to israel
AvatarofPower:: 300 versus 4000 is a bit much,
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--oh there you
go...get a bunch of western women to attract fundamentalist
muslim men who are considered pillars of their
community....then post the chat transcripts when
they ask for cybersex
ladyfractal:: zach: then something seems to have
gone terribly, terribly wrong
howbloom:: here's something
else to consider
ZachSylvanus:: Not if the relationship in standard
of living and literacy is very off
howbloom:: there are
1.2 billion moslems
ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Western civilization
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Oh blah. :P
ladyfractal:: zach: ?
ZachSylvanus:: We've crushed them since we mounted
howbloom:: almost all
of them agree that the jews are a curse on the
Meme Wars joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Zombie--hey, it just
howbloom:: and that israel
is an abomination
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could discredit
ZachSylvanus:: They were able to hold on very
well, since they were in the middle of the spice
ZombieHatesYou:: They think we are whores, Michael.
howbloom:: there are
5 million Israelis
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we know the islamic
extremists are suckers for sex
ZachSylvanus:: And then our shipping routes pulled
out the only economic advantage they had
howbloom:: do the arithmetic,
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could out them
Chris OConnor:: Hey meme
Chris OConnor:: you're late!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we could resettle the
Jews in Texas, I'm sure they'll assimilate just
ladyfractal:: michael: they *really* do...although
what I've started doing on Yahoo is asking if
Muslim women will chat about sex with any man
cinnamon321:: I met someone from Iran once, and
she says that there are practicing Jews there.
Meme Wars:: So did I miss the guest speaker?
howbloom:: Jews? in Texas?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: course I'm technically
jewish and afraid of Texans so maybe not
Chris OConnor:: Michael - you sure are filled
with fancy ideas lol
ladyfractal:: michael: its AMAZING how quickly
that shuts them up
howbloom:: we jews tend
to be left wing liberals
Chris OConnor:: Meme - Howard Bloom is here now
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a bleeding heart
is the latest epithet
ladyfractal:: michael: Jews in Texas? Do they
even ALLOW Jews in Texas? they don't eat bbq pork
howbloom:: about the
only place in texas where we'd fit in is austin
howbloom:: the progressive capital of the state
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, Jews survive (somehow)
howbloom:: actually there
are jewish texans
AvatarofPower:: lol... i'm conservative.... for
a hippy... which is to say moderately liberal
ZombieHatesYou:: This is driving me nuts. I want
so much to be able to listen to what you all have
to say, and my kids keep screaming at me. How
howbloom:: kinky friedman
cinnamon321:: There's Jews everywhere hehe
ladyfractal:: howard: Austin is the ONLY part
of Texas I'll actually cast a shadow
ZachSylvanus:: As opposed to the middle of the
Islamic world, howard? :P
Meme Wars:: I had to do emergency work to my wife's
postal jeep, so I missed out.
ladyfractal:: howard: sorry, I was being facetious
howbloom:: look, we jews
have a problem
howbloom:: the irish have ireland
howbloom:: the french have france
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we humans have a problem
howbloom:: the english
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the christians have
AvatarofPower:: we humans have a problem
AvatarofPower:: indeed, michael
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - being a single mom is
howbloom:: and we were
tossed out of the postage stamp of land we once
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the animists have....um...
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I manage.
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I once was one.
howbloom:: in the same
way that the french are wedded to the soil of
Chris OConnor:: lol
howbloom:: we are wedded
to the soil from which we came
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the buddhists have
howbloom:: god knows
ZombieHatesYou:: A single mom? *quirks brow*
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't believe in
being wedded to soil. I believe group identity
is a narrative process
howbloom:: and god knows
what instinctual thing supports the power of tribal
AvatarofPower:: howard... modern western cultures
are absolutely removed from the land
ladyfractal:: howard: I hope you don't mind my
saying this...but as a black woman, I almost envy
Jews for having a Jerusalem
are based on instinct
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't necessarily
howbloom:: they swirl
around instinctual points
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think there is an
instinct to form groups
howbloom:: they are based
on hierarchy games
Chris OConnor:: Lady - Wow...I can imagine you
AvatarofPower:: its the culture that the people
are attatched to... its the human constructions
ON the land that modern western cultures are attached
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I don't know if
jewishness is instinctual.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or any other "ishness"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think it's just grouping
Chris OConnor:: Lady - They have a place to call
howbloom:: have you ever
looked at Aristotelian plot structure from an
instincual and evolutionary point of view?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jews have a narrative,
Palestinians have a narrative
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they are both victim
ZombieHatesYou:: My Zombishness is instinctual.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives are
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they see each other
as aliens, but they're brothers
ladyfractal:: chris: I have Jewish friends, I've
gone to Passover saders and when I've heard "next
year in Jerusalem" I understand what it *truly*
means to have a land that is yours
howbloom:: the Palestinian
narrative was started in the 1960s
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no land of my
howbloom:: did you know
that what is now called Jordan occupies
howbloom:: 75% of the territory once called Palestine
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: victims are victims,
they generate a retro-narrative
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can create a thousand
years of narrative without there even being a
reality to it
howbloom:: and do you
know how palestinians are treated in that 75%
howbloom:: do you know about black september?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Palestinians are the
Jews of the Middle East, aside from the Jews
ZombieHatesYou:: What is that? Black September?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I don't know much of
the history of that region...and should read up
on it a bit
pctacitus:: yeah, like shit
howbloom:: 10,000 palestinians
under Yassir Arafat
pctacitus:: Jordanians massacred palastinians
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wish people would
just realize they are weaving a story and it's
howbloom:: were living
howbloom:: yes, you've got it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there's a point when
one's self-narrative unravels and you have to
see you are just a member of a species
ladyfractal:: michael: but that's not going to
happen...people are far too wedded to their memes
howbloom:: tacitus, how
did you know and can you tell the story
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--it will happen
ladyfractal:: michael: *particularly* if those
memes help them feel special and beats back the
demon of having to deal with their own lives
howbloom:: well few know
that corner of history
howbloom:: it never made the headlines
pctacitus:: Arafat was too politically powerful
ZombieHatesYou:: I will have to read up on that.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'll agree with Lady....I
don't see it ever happening
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in Ireland, at one
point, 3 children were killed by a bomb...their
parents were protestant and catholic. Neither
side could use them as martyrs. That seemed to
break the spell for a lot of people.
cinnamon321:: I agree ladyfractal
howbloom:: the slaughter
of Palestinians by...Palestinians
pctacitus:: the king of Jordan had the army kick
the PLO out by force
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nature gave us tribal
identities for a reason...perhaps she breaks those
open and gives us species identities when the
pressure is great enough.
ladyfractal:: chris: I'm not saying it will *never*
happen...but I think it will be a terribly long
road. There's a rising tide of irrationalism and
I don't think we've seen the crest of it yet
howbloom:: yes, Arafat's
boys were doing what they do best--stealing cars
and forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint
pctacitus:: tanks vs rifles
Glory Matthews:: Michale, I really identify with
what you said ... I often feel not just from my
culture, but just human
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I would imagine the
blaming of Jews for the Palestinians is partly
a product of guilt over how Arabs have treateed
pctacitus:: who wins? just guess people
howbloom:: and there
were suspicions that Arafat might want the Jordanian
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: tribal narratives are
soaked with guilt, that's why I can't have identify
howbloom:: michael, it
would be nice
pctacitus:: Arafat wants power? Im so shocked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: arabs and Israelis
and Americans, all thee groups have stories...and
guilt is fuelling a big chunk of them
Chris OConnor:: Lady - I am afraid for our species.
I see ignorance everywhere I turn...and this ignorance
is embraced. As if its a virtue to not care about
howbloom:: if the Arabs
felt guilty over the way they've penned up the
Palestinians in refugee camps
pctacitus:: no wait Im not at all shocked
howbloom:: and used them
as political pawns
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if everyone felt their
own guilt, they'd stop projecting it
howbloom:: but I don't
think there's a stitch of guilt about it
ladyfractal:: chris: that is *exactly* what I'm
talking about...you and I are on the same page
howbloom:: and you're
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but guilt makes them
feel unconsciously that they deserve to be overwhelmed
pctacitus:: of course not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so they push and strategize
howbloom:: there's no
need for guilt when you can blame it on the Israelis
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and form final solutions
pctacitus:: it's war by proxy
howbloom:: the jews who
secretly run america etc
Glory Matthews:: Chris, I am concerned about that
Chris OConnor:: Michael - the problem is the majority
of people on this planet are idiots...and they
don't care about their idiocy.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and both populations
are separated by a gulf of perception
Chris OConnor:: Glory - I don't see a solution
pctacitus:: the arabs are hoping both sides will
kill each other off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives
ladyfractal:: chris: My housemate, is very well
educated and well-traveled...but without realizing
the implications, dismisses with a wave of the
hand, rationality, logic and science as being
'just another (inferior) way of viewing the world'
ZombieHatesYou:: There's never need for guilt
when you can blame it on someone else...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: group identity replaces
individual conscience because it's too hard to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and everyone becomes
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Why is it that there
are so many jews in political office in the US?
howbloom:: group identities
are very important
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jews? try christians!
howbloom:: group identities
give us our individual identity
ladyfractal:: chris: when I tried to explain to
her that in some Islamic states, for instance,
the accused in a murder can have friends come
in and testiy on his behalf and that testimony
is counted as evidentiary that is a scary world,
she didn't understand it.
Glory Matthews:: Chris, people don't want to know,
they just want to be sheltered, and we all know
this and only extreme circumstances will change
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more identified
with my abilities and not with a group beyond
my immediate family
cinnamon321:: My biggest pipe dream for the future
would be that humans would gain a species identity
as the flow of information between the nether-regions
of the world increases and people lose some of
Chris OConnor:: Is there any truth to what I've
heard of Jews controlling this nation?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more like a
piece of music than a piece of land
pctacitus:: are you ok?
ladyfractal:: michael: hmmmm...I understand what
you are saying...I've been giving a lot of thought
to it as you speak
howbloom:: look, music is all about group identity
howbloom:: think for a moment
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know if I were black,
and I spent time with black people, I'd form an
"authentic" black identity
howbloom:: music is used
as a flag to show what group you belong to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: same with jewishness...if
I was SEEN as a member of the group, I'd feel
ladyfractal:: michael: But I have to say, I *am*
part of something larger than myself or my family.
My personal story, who I am,is inseperable from
my being a black American and a child of the civil
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--that's why
white suburban kids talk ghetto
Chris OConnor:: I listen to rap
howbloom:: to say fuck
you to their parents
ZachSylvanus:: you rebel :P
Chris OConnor:: I like Tu Pac, Eminem, etc..
Glory Matthews:: Howard, I relate with the music
statement more than anything else that has been
howbloom:: to say we
have an identity of our own
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel connected
to all white people just cos I'm white..but if
whites were persecuted, then I'd have a "white"
Chris OConnor:: I also listen to Andrea Bocelli
and Sarah Brightman, Al Green, Marvin Gaye
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: white kids saying "we
have our own identity, and it's black!"
howbloom:: michael is
pctacitus:: isn't the music thing in Global Brain?
ladyfractal:: michael; LOL!!!
in the greatest bonder
howbloom:: music is another bonder
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel Jewish,
but if I lived in Israel I might
howbloom:: the music
thing isn't in global brain
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as it is, nobody notices
my jewishness so I don't identify with it
howbloom:: it's part
of my fieldwork in music
Chris OConnor:: Howard - it is something you should
write about someday
ZombieHatesYou:: I think our "ethnic"
or "cultural" identity is what often
gets us into these messes in the first place...
howbloom:: it's one of
the things I learned helping new subcultures get
on their feet
pctacitus:: Are you sure Howard?
ladyfractal:: michael: well, my 'authentic' black
identity is a very different 'black' identity
than what gets into the media
Chris OConnor:: Howard - or I should say "publish"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I lived in a prison
and was seen as a criminal, I'd adopt the criminal
Glory Matthews:: Howard, I would LOVE to read
about the music idea.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - explain disco then
ladyfractal:: howard; disco??!!!!!!!
howbloom:: hang on
Chris OConnor:: I even liked disco
howbloom:: how did
Chris OConnor:: I LOVE music
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think all the "identities"
people are coasting on will turn out to be automatic
programs which will shock us into a new identity,
a species identity
howbloom:: Al sharpton's
name come up?
howbloom:: then we'll do disco
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those identities are
becoming idols, brittle
Chris OConnor:: Who didn't like Saturday Night
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: You liked disco? Wow. My whole
opinion of you just went down the crapper.
ladyfractal:: howard: Yes, briefly...I was saying
that my black identity was more like Shelby Steele
than Al Sharpton
Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - I sure did
cinnamon321:: Micheal, we will eventually HAVE
to have a species identity.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I can imagine having
a disco identity
howbloom:: good for you
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon--a lot of
people have already glimpsed it
howbloom:: I spent six
months babysitting al sharpton and
Chris OConnor:: I love music....soooooo much.
I like bagpipes, banjos, the pan flute
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when you arent' accepted
by ANY group, something happens to you
howbloom:: am utterly
disgusted at what the media has made of him
ladyfractal:: howard: the ONLY reason I would
invoke that man is to emphasize the ways in which
I am not like him
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you are Jewish but
the Jewish community rejects you, you become what?
pctacitus:: Al Sharpton's campaign would reelect
howbloom:: he's a con
man and he's been legitmated
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you're black but
you're gay, are you treated the same as if you
were just black? Identity becomes complex.
ladyfractal:: howard: not that I have strong feelings
about him at all.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: legitimated lol
Meme Wars left
NaddiaAoC:: I love music too, Chris, but I have
yet to meet a disco song that I like.
howbloom:: I do, he's
a fascinating guy and extremely charming
howbloom:: but a thief
howbloom:: ok disco if you're up for it
ladyfractal:: michael; I can say, definitely,
that you're not. there is a tension between my
being black and my being gay
Chris OConnor:: Lady - I would love to have a
conversation someday about racism...its of great
interest to me.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Al Sharpton is popular
for his ability to get racism publicized when
nobody else will touch it
ladyfractal:: michael: for a long time I didn't
have much to do with the black community because
gays in the 1950s and 1960s were bashed, beaten
when they went on the street
Glory Matthews:: Michael, you become Velveta,
just like the rest of the ethnic-uncentered americans
who struggle for identity.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--but maybe that
tension gives you a way to see through the illusion
of both identities?
howbloom:: they had no
ligeitimate identity in our culture
Chris OConnor:: Howard - lets talk disco
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think you have
to be "velveta"
ladyfractal:: michael: Yes, it does...
howbloom:: gay clubs
were raided by the police and everyone arrested
for being gay
howbloom:: this is the background of the disco
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no real ethnic
identification but I identify with art, music,
things involving pattern
howbloom:: one sunday
I got a call from a close friend in the music
Chris OConnor:: Howard! Are you saying disco is
a gay thing?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--so everyone
acted gay and that solved the problem! I get it!
ladyfractal:: michael: But when I moved to Oregon,
and found that this place is white as new-fallen
snow, I suddenly feel *very* black...
howbloom:: it must have
howbloom:: or 1976
ladyfractal:: chris; no, I understand where howard
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--well that I can
NaddiaAoC:: Hi LanDroid!
howbloom:: he was on
fire island, a place where gays can quietyl be
Chris OConnor:: Speaking of gay....welcome back
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I moved into an
all black neighborhood, I'd feel conspicuously
NaddiaAoC:: I was still burping up breastmilk
LanDroid:: Heh, howdy - been here a while, just
howbloom:: he said, "meet
me at my apartment tomorrow morning" Monday
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: unless they were all
ladyfractal:: chris: I hadn't come out yet...but
I lived just north of San Francisco and have friends
who were out at that time
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Chris
howbloom:: I get off
the seaplane from fire island
howbloom:: we met
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: he was wildly
howbloom:: he was a very macho sort of guy
Chris OConnor:: macho macho man....(Village People)
howbloom:: so was his
roommate, zz tops rep in ny and another friend
and colleague of mine
ladyfractal:: chris: I was wondering if he was
gonna tie the gay rights movement to the disco
movement...that's the ONLY place where I could
see disco having any kind of political consciousness
howbloom:: he tolem me
he was gay and proud of it
NaddiaAoC:: Me too, LanDroid. I'm at work so I'm
in and out of the chat.
howbloom:: I was very,
howbloom:: then he told me what had been happening
during the summer on fire island
ladyfractal:: chris; btw. I'd be happy to talk
to you about racism at some point
Chris OConnor:: I never undrstood being proud
of anything you didn't proactively do
howbloom:: in the gay
Chris OConnor:: lady - excellent
howbloom:: there was
a new form of music being imported from
ladyfractal:: chris: you can email me if you wish
howbloom:: it was techno dance stuff with a feverish
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Me either. That's why I have
a hard time with the phrase, "proud to be
howbloom:: the gays were
gathering every night and dancing their asses
of to it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: where is the gay gangsta
by that music, they felt a potent sense of belonging
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there must be gay gangstas
howbloom:: a potent sense
howbloom:: and they wanted to take that music
Chris OConnor:: lady - you should start posting
on BookTalk - we could have a great conversation
on "The Roundtable" about this...I don't
have enough time to do email conversations and
also participate on BookTalk. I like to keep the
intellectual time-consuming stuff on the boards
howbloom:: and that IDENTITY
howbloom:: disco was
a social movement
ladyfractal:: michael: actually gay.com had an
article about three months ago on gay rappers
howbloom:: a coming out
of the closet, and I was being asked to be its
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--yeah, but gangsta
NaddiaAoC:: Lady: Yeah, you should start a thread
about racism on the message board. I would love
to discuss it too.
ladyfractal:: michael: its still very small...but
there seems to be a growing gay hip-hop rap scene
howbloom:: the person
who would embed it in the culture
AvatarofPower:: all real deep forms of music are
howbloom:: new gay clubs
sprang up on the west side of the village
howbloom:: outrageously gay clubs
howbloom:: no pretending, no sneaking around
Chris OConnor:: I've been in a gay club
ladyfractal:: michael: well, I'm not sure and
I'm not sure I would WANT there to be a gay gangsta'
rap scene because I'm not particularly fond of
howbloom:: but clothes
like you've never seen
LanDroid:: No surprise Chris...
AvatarofPower:: heh... enjoy yourself chris?
howbloom:: skin tight
leather outfits, then the macho thing
Chris OConnor:: LanDroid ROFL
Glory Matthews:: lan, heh
howbloom:: guys dressed
up like the Village People
howbloom:: before there was a Village people
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and gays have more
reason than anyone to oppose
fundamentalist islamic radicals but they can't
join the army
howbloom:: two gay guys
flew in from France
ladyfractal:: michael: to me, it appropriates
the *worst* images of black urban life and elevates
them to be THE One True Authentic Blackness
Chris OConnor:: I wore black leather pants, a
leather vest, and a space helmet
howbloom:: and suddently
found their freedom
howbloom:: in the clubs
ZombieHatesYou:: *has minor mental breakdown*
howbloom:: they were
brilliant at making music
Chris OConnor:: Hoard - this was in the 70's?
howbloom:: they recruited
four guys and random
howbloom:: yes the 70s
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: here goose, have an
howbloom:: and dressed
them the way the guys in the clubs were dressing
howbloom:: and called them the village people
Chris OConnor:: The Village People
Chris OConnor:: yes
ZombieHatesYou:: You called me Goose
Chris OConnor:: and they were great I thought
howbloom:: it was a celebration
of their identity
Chris OConnor:: no laughing...I liked them
ladyfractal:: howard: so that's how they started!
howbloom:: disco was
a social movement
Sephirah Geburah:: What do you see for the near
future of music in general, Howard?
howbloom:: a demand to
Chris OConnor:: yes
howbloom:: a demand to
the end of gay bashing
ladyfractal:: howard: so, what do you think about
the current gay rights movement?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: music with intelligent
lyrics would be nice
Glory Matthews:: Zomb, at least he didn't call
you Binary ;P
Chris OConnor:: And it seemed to have worked...to
LanDroid:: Next musical social movement?
Chris OConnor:: tehy came out of the closet
howbloom:: so when I
worked on music i never worked on rhythm and melody
in a vacuum
howbloom:: i was always
freeing new subcultures the right
Sephirah Geburah:: Or artistic and honest lyrics
AvatarofPower:: damn hippies are starting to come
howbloom:: for new ways
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how would you free
ladyfractal:: avatar: hey! I resemble that remark!
howbloom:: hmmmm, I'm
on ef those damend hippies, circa 1962
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need publicists
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm a country fan....any
opinions on country music?
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Avatar. From that photo of you
on the MB I think you should be their king.
howbloom:: I'm trying
to free Islamic intellectuals
pctacitus:: hippies again, damn them
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you a bleeding
heart liberal or a handwringing liberal?
howbloom:: yoiks, naddia
Chris OConnor:: (and please don't say, "yea,
howbloom:: bear with
me if I sound stupid or brash
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: but in 1973
I was working with country music
Chris OConnor:: ok
ladyfractal:: howard: out of sheer curiosity...what
do you think of what happened to the gay rights
movement AFTER AIDS hit?
howbloom:: I hated the
music but loved the people
howbloom:: the music got no respect, it was like
the gay thing
howbloom:: so I worked
to take it mainstream and it worked
howbloom:: but why did I do it?
ladyfractal:: howard; I got involved in the movement
in the late 80's...and it seemed like we lost
a generation of leadership...at least amongst
howbloom:: for the people,
not for the music
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos your dog died and
your pickup stopped working?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, the people are a
big part of it for me. What I like about country
music is it is clean...and the lyrics are about
things we can all relate to.
howbloom:: and the lyrics
say that if you are depressed and miserable
howbloom:: you are not alone
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lesbian country is
Chris OConnor:: Howard - what country artists
did you work with?
howbloom:: there are
a bunch of us and we will comfort you
ladyfractal:: michael: lesbian country....like
howbloom:: Donna Fargo
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: KD Lang maybe?
howbloom:: Roy Clark
LanDroid:: I like humorous country songs, otherwise
can't get past the twang...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not sure what's considered
ladyfractal:: michael: ahhh...okay...she's more
Jazz now...and the indigo girls aren't country
howbloom:: nope, I was
asked to take a look at KD Lang
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Another thing I like
is that country fans are cross-generational. You
can like the same songs if you are 12 or 21 or
howbloom:: and to give
an opinion to a record company president who was
thinking of signing her
howbloom:: and I hated her
Chris OConnor:: Never heard of Donna Fargo
howbloom:: so I did not
always get things right
Chris OConnor:: but that was the 70's
LanDroid:: Chris - like the rolling stones?
ladyfractal:: lan: LOL
ladyfractal:: chris: the Grateful Dead are like
LanDroid:: Hated KD Lang?
Chris OConnor:: I am not a deadhead
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the first bands I really
liked were talking heads and Police
howbloom:: yes, I must
ladyfractal:: chris: I am.
Chris OConnor:: ahh
howbloom:: I hated KD
Lang and was sure she would go nowhere
AvatarofPower:: heh... the jamband social scene
is getting *huge* nowadays, lady
ladyfractal:: michael; I LOVED the Police...
Chris OConnor:: Howard - she has fizzled out though...a
AvatarofPower:: and the Dead is back!
howbloom:: I helped start
a whole bunch of subcultures off--rap, heavy metal,
LanDroid:: I wouldn't buy a disc, but thought
KD has a great voice compared to most...
Chris OConnor:: Which bands?
Chris OConnor:: I love metal
howbloom:: but kd lang
resonated with the old country music i'd heard
when I was a kid
Chris OConnor:: Constant Craving is the only KD
Lang song I know
howbloom:: and I sensed
something alien about that music, it was a group
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the only song
I really like lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: haven't heard that
much of her stuff though
Sephirah Geburah:: Hey! Im gonna toot my own horn!
My "band" for lack of better words,
has had a local top ten album for more than 7
months, had over 14,000 downloads on MP3.com,
consitently sell out local venues, and have talked
from everybody from RCA to Warner Brothers about
deals... Any suggestions on how we can finally
get this thing going the next step?!
howbloom:: I was four
yeras old and would wake up at 6am before my parents
ladyfractal:: okay I'm gonna blast some Dave Matthews
Band and get ready to go have a drink
howbloom:: and turn on
cinnamon321:: For me, I like a song and I don't
really pay attention to the artist.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--right on...where
do you live?
ladyfractal:: be well all...namaste
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye fractal
Sephirah Geburah:: !!! Namaste!!!!!!
howbloom:: and it was
all country music and farm reports and something
inside of me told me
cinnamon321:: by fractal
Sephirah Geburah:: Arizona
ladyfractal:: michael: thanks for telling me about
this place...this was a Good Thing (tm)
howbloom:: that I was
a Jewish city kid and that farmers hated me
Sephirah Geburah:: Phoenix
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I tend to resonate
to individual songs, not so much the persona
howbloom:: so I hated
the music--remember I was only four
LanDroid:: Heh, insightful 4 year old.
ladyfractal:: howard: pleasure meeting you...I've
read some of your works....enjoyed speaking with
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there jewish rap?
ZombieHatesYou:: Take care, Frac
Chris OConnor:: Sephira - thats awesome
howbloom:: thanks fractal
ladyfractal:: zombs: be well suga'...talk to ya
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they should have rap
competitions between Jews and Arabs
Chris OConnor:: Bye Lady
ZachSylvanus:: Michael: I've heard HINDI rap>>>
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sing the narratives
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, I've heard hindi
ZachSylvanus:: I'm sure there's Jewish rap
howbloom:: rap competitions
between christians and arabs
howbloom:: i love it
Chris OConnor:: lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe a world competition
for narrative songwriting
Chris OConnor:: lovely
howbloom:: you know what
I would love?
Chris OConnor:: What?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: aspire to be the spokesman
for your identity niche
howbloom:: if jews and
arabs could live together and enjoy each other
howbloom:: have coffee
together at the cafes
Chris OConnor:: How do you feel about Ebonics
and rap lyrics?
howbloom:: eat dinner
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--did I mention
that phone campaign?
howbloom:: talk about
the holy sights in hebron
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes, that would be incredibe
howbloom:: make dates
to meet each other there
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they're anonymously
connecting Israelis and Palestinians over the
ZachSylvanus:: We need a powerful Arab Neitzsche
to kill Allah
howbloom:: i had a bit
of that when I was in Israel
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a switchboard
LanDroid:: how long would that take - less than
howbloom:: I'd love to
see it as a social norm
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Zach
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it takes a generation,
but you have to be willing to go against the ones
on your own side who feel the other side is alien
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: because that's guilt
howbloom:: the Arab world
has managed to unite the entire Islamic community
around hatred of Israel and of Jews
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the person who reminds
me of my own failures is the person who is most
alien to me
howbloom:: from Nigeria
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cos they have a vibe
which goes inside
howbloom:: Jew hatred
is too valuable a political tool to give up
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they need to role play
and be in a situation where they're SEEN as jews
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's what
breaks up the trance...being seen as the other
pctacitus:: it gives them something to believe
howbloom:: god, do you
mean asking arabs to role play a jewish role?
Chris OConnor:: I've never understood it
Chris OConnor:: Jew hatred
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--and vice versa
howbloom:: I put myself
inside the arab mind every day
Chris OConnor:: I've never understood hatred of
any sort...blind hatred
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all things come full
circle eventually. There's a book by a concentration
camp survivor who took LSD with a psychiatrist...
howbloom:: I read Osama's
speeches word for word
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he said he saw the
Nazi within himself
howbloom:: and those
of mnay of his allies
Chris OConnor:: Howard - that is a great book
"The Arab Mind"
pctacitus:: in what language?
Sephirah Geburah:: Howard, have you considered
employing your social engeneering techniques to
help a "arab-neitzsche" for example,
get off its feet?
Sephirah Geburah:: How?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think you need people
who are very fluid in their identification
howbloom:: that's why
I have meetings in this bedroom with folks with
tiels to Bangla Desh and Afghanistan
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people who can separate
the factual narrative from the identity narrative
howbloom:: I am trying
to help these people find their voice
howbloom:: and trying to influence the educational
systems in those countries
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: interesting that we
can do that, isn't it? sit indoors and communicate
halfway around the world
howbloom:: so kids are
not taught hate
Sephirah Geburah:: !!! I would give you a hug
Chris OConnor:: thats the key
Sephirah Geburah:: I was there
howbloom:: and not taught
only about their warriror heros
Sephirah Geburah:: hehehe
howbloom:: but are taught
about their culture heros
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's not just teaching
hate, it's child abuse...abused kids will adopt
angry identities to displace anger at their own
howbloom:: the ones who
innovated and who created new ideas, new empowerments
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a lot of it is psycholigical
substitution and displacement
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Islam produced
some great art
howbloom:: but role models
build the psyches and the passions of kids
howbloom:: and stay inside adults, guiding their
Sephirah Geburah:: Howard, Do you keep a journal?
And if you do, do you think you ever publish it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true...being SEEN in
association with the role model
howbloom:: I have 300 mb of
howbloom:: the grand
unified theory of everything in the universe including
the human soul
Chris OConnor:: Wow
howbloom:: it's 3,800
chapters of book material
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send it over
Sephirah Geburah:: !!! I wanna read it all!!!
howbloom:: I need editors
to helpe me put it together
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: should form a think
tank to compete with the Heritage Inst
howbloom:: so if you
know anyone in ny
pctacitus:: how much will that cost on amazon?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - do you believe humans
have a soul?
Sephirah Geburah:: Ok do this, right click "My
Documents" and click "Share" ok?
howbloom:: who'd like
to help, let me know
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'll help with whatever
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my website
LanDroid:: Came in late - have you chatted about
the effect of the upcoming war? U.S. genocide
in Baghdad seeding more terrorism?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have some free time
howbloom:: sould to me
means passions so deep that they leap from us
like flame in transcendent moments
pctacitus:: I'll edit
I'm an atheist
howbloom:: tacitus, where do you live?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - defined as such I have
quite a soul
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like the idea of
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think about the soul,
but not as an external thing
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: more as a pattern
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feedback spiral
pantheism is part of what we're working on around
howbloom:: a new religion based on science
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think that's coming
ZachSylvanus:: Why bother?
howbloom:: one of the
books in the hard drive waiting to be birthed
pctacitus:: Church of Virus?
Chris OConnor:: I never understood pantheism.
The cosmos is divine? Meaningless to me.
Sephirah Geburah:: THATS IT!!! ALL OF YOU!!! Ponder
for the next couple days on how we can help Howard
get those chapters into the public hands... His
work has already done magic for many people I
know, and the more the better... This world needs
it, and fast
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: harness that limbig
resonance and add some poetry and smart ideas
howbloom:: is called
The third Testament--the message of science to
the human soul
ZachSylvanus:: I guess I don't understand why
science needs a church
cinnamon321:: Some peoples religion is science.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think the basic message
is "it's all connected"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you've seen Mindwalk
thank you for your words
pctacitus:: My spring break starts tommorrow
ZachSylvanus:: the very idea of a religion based
around science implies some sort of dogma
howbloom:: can you email
me so I can stay in touch with you?
pctacitus:: email me and I will edit quickly
cinnamon321:: I agree Zach.
howbloom:: my email address
is [email protected]
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think we would all
love if you stayed in contact with BookTalk somehow...not
sure how. Maybe come back in the future to keep
us abreast of your progress in solving the great
mysteries of life.
howbloom:: or if that's
hard to remember, try this
howbloom:: [email protected]
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you send me stuff
to read, I'll see if I can come up with some flash
poetry based on it
Chris OConnor:: Michael - One of my favorite movies!!!
howbloom:: Chris let's
discuss it and figure out a way to do it
pctacitus:: I'll be in touch
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, Mindwalk was
howbloom:: wow, Michael,
email me, remind me about the flash poetry, ok?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--will do
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's an L in your
LanDroid:: [email protected] - like a wolf? heh.
NaddiaAoC:: Howard: I would love for you to stay
in touch. It would be fun to chat with you again.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok, howl
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I would love to see you
do something with Dorion and Ann Druyan...something
about bringing the beauty of science to the masses.
That was Carls passion.
howbloom:: tacitus, if
you seriously think you've got some editing time,
stay in touch, emai me
howbloom:: naddia, thank you
LanDroid:: Yes, building on candle in the darkness.
pctacitus:: I will
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've always got time,
my only client right now is my dad
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: write anytime, I like
interesting projects and think tanks
howbloom:: ok, guys and
ladies, I'm wiped
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to see you again
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: always stimulating
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Want the transcript emailed
LanDroid:: Whew! Thanks! Great job!
let's see if we can work out another visit and
yes, please send a transcript
Sephirah Geburah:: Thank you SO much Howard for
talking with us! You mean so much to so many of
us... I can't thank you enough...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: send me one too chris
AvatarofPower:: it was excellent talking with
ZachSylvanus:: Thanks for taking time to chat
howbloom:: I will see
you all again soon
pctacitus:: thanks Howard
cinnamon321:: Yes, thanks for talking to us Howard.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, you can expect the
transcript shortly. I always edit for spelling
errors to make it read smoother.
NaddiaAoC:: Thanks for coming by, Howard. This
was definitely a highlight of BookTalk!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice to chat with people
not using capslock
Chris OConnor:: Michael - LOL No doubt
pctacitus:: bye, I have an art history paper to
write by tomorrow
Sephirah Geburah:: Aww.. hes gone.. its kind of
like a really good concert ending
Chris OConnor:: I'm glad to see so many people
turned out for this
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: later pc
LanDroid:: Whoaaa. Amazing - what did he say,
3800 chapters? Heh...
Chris OConnor:: Howard is a great guy....brilliant
Glory Matthews:: It's been great to chat tonight,
very interesting. Must get to bed now though.
NaddiaAoC:: I am too.
AvatarofPower:: yeah, it was a good session, chris
Chris OConnor:: Night Glori
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have to pee. See
you in yahoo, chris
NaddiaAoC:: Goodnight Glory
ZachSylvanus:: g'night glory
cinnamon321:: Yeah...3800 Chapters..that boggles
ZombieHatesYou:: Thanks for having me, Chris.
AvatarofPower:: thats alota text
ZombieHatesYou:: I've a lot to think about now.
AvatarofPower:: 300mb of text
Chris OConnor:: Hey, the transcript will be in
"Chat Central" and you all can feel
to add comments to the thread
ZombieHatesYou:: *retreats to yahoo*
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I am sooo glad you came
cinnamon321:: That kind of reminds me of Wolfram's
a new kind of science...but Wolframs book is about
Chris OConnor:: Damn she left
Sephirah Geburah:: hehe
AvatarofPower:: have you read that, cinnamon?
Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - and I'm glad you joined.
Sephirah Geburah:: Is there some sort of Buddy
List system here on Booktalk?
Sephirah Geburah:: Me to! Thanks again chris!
Glory Matthews left
cinnamon321:: I would like to be able to understand
it someday though.
Chris OConnor:: we will have many authors as guests
in the future
cinnamon321:: I was just comparing book sizes
Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - What do you mean by
LanDroid:: Can we get Lucretius next month?
AvatarofPower:: its a biggun
Chris OConnor:: Lan - I already have him set up
Chris OConnor:: LOL
Sephirah Geburah:: I dunno... I met alot of neat
people in this room tonight and I want some way
to log there names and talk with them outside
AvatarofPower:: i'm slowly preparing my brain
to start digging through it
ZachSylvanus:: The forums, Seph
Sephirah Geburah:: oh yeah
Sephirah Geburah:: silly me.. im new at all this
cinnamon321:: Arent most of the booktalk people
Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - Here is the scoop.
You can exchange emails on the forums...and talk
outside of BookTalk
NaddiaAoC:: Alright folks. I need to go. Nice
chatting with you.
ZachSylvanus:: g'night cheryl
AvatarofPower:: talk to ya later, cheryl!
Chris OConnor:: I want to have a BookTalk get-together
one day within the year here in Florida
Chris OConnor:: Night cheryl
cinnamon321:: Good night Naddia
Sephirah Geburah:: How many registered users does
Book talk have?
AvatarofPower:: florida... so... far... away
NaddiaAoC:: Goodnight everyone!
ZachSylvanus:: Florida is so hot
LanDroid:: 62 members! Allriiiight...
Chris OConnor:: We have 62 registered users...but
I do something to the numbers...
Sephirah Geburah:: ?
Chris OConnor:: Other EZBoards do not delete inactive
Sephirah Geburah:: oh
Sephirah Geburah:: gotcha
Chris OConnor:: If I didn't delete people we would
have over 100
Chris OConnor:: I delete spammers
Sephirah Geburah:: how long has this board been
Chris OConnor:: and people who don't come back
after doing a "hit and run"
cinnamon321:: Hmm, I didnt know anyone who spammed
on message boards
Chris OConnor:: Spammers are people who come by
and post about their message board without even
knowing what BookTalk is
Chris OConnor:: ...other EZBoard owners
cinnamon321:: Yeah, that would be annoying.
Chris OConnor:: But the moderators delete those
posts right away
Chris OConnor:: I wanted to say something
Chris OConnor:: We are now reading "Atheism:
Chris OConnor:: I plan to invite S.T. Joshi for
a chat in 2 months
Chris OConnor:: And possibly Carl Sagans widow
Sephirah Geburah:: CRAP! I wish I had money. I
would go buy it.. I will try to scroundge up cash...
ZachSylvanus:: do you think he'll deign to speak
to us mere mortals? Joshi, that is
cinnamon321:: I'll have to hit the library
Chris OConnor:: She would stand in for Carl...who
has an essay in this book
Sephirah Geburah:: Starving artist
Chris OConnor:: Zach - I would bet on it
AvatarofPower:: that would be very cool, chris
Sephirah Geburah:: I have a big over due fee at
the library shame on me
LanDroid:: Be sure to tell Jeremy that Howard
specifically admitted to being an atheist.
Jeremy seems to think he is a theologian, LOL...
cinnamon321:: You're an artist sephirah, or a
Chris OConnor:: Zach - we have a great group here...authors
Chris OConnor:: LanDroid - good point
Sephirah Geburah:: I'm a musician
ZachSylvanus:: On the other hand, do we really
understand the issues? :P
Chris OConnor:: Are you all reading this next
AvatarofPower:: i'm omnicient, zach... didn't
Chris OConnor:: I am looking very much forward
to some awesome discussions on it
cinnamon321:: Oh cool Seph, do you identify the
style of music you play with any of the current
ZachSylvanus:: Not only did I know, but I made
you say that
LanDroid:: Yeah, I just started John Stuart Mill
- # 10.
AvatarofPower:: i knew you were making me say
it... i just went along with it to make you *think*
you were making me say it
Chris OConnor:: I wish there was a way to select
all of the text in this chat room with one or
Sephirah Geburah:: AH!! CINNAMON I LOVE YOU!!!
That was the best way to ask that question!!!
hehehe... I have had HUNDREDS of people ask the
simple question, "Who would you compare yourself
Chris OConnor:: LanDroid - damn
Chris OConnor:: Ok guys...thanks for showing up
and making this such a success.
Sephirah Geburah:: But, the best way Ihave heard
somebody describe our music is "Exotic Industrial
Chris OConnor:: Howard will come back in the future...you
Sephirah Geburah:: It is very spiritual and artistic
cinnamon321:: Cool Seph.
LanDroid:: What's the website?
Chris OConnor:: I am done chatting...I have to
copy and paste this whole thread now.
cinnamon321:: Good luck with your band
Sephirah Geburah:: www.blessedbethyname.com
Chris OConnor:: Goodnight guys
LanDroid:: Thanks - chekkin it...
Sephirah Geburah:: nighty night!
cinnamon321: Goodnight Chris
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