TRANSCRIPT 10...
Chris OConnor:: Welcome Lee Harris!
misterpessimistic:: Welcome Lee!
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Welcome.
RickU:: Hullo Lee
Jeremy1952:: You do us a great honor being here,
do it however you like
Aleeharris:: Hello, to
everyone.
tarav:: Hello Lee
Chris OConnor:: Lee - you can click on the "Color
and Font" and increase the size of the font
RickU:: You may also want to increase the size
of the Chat window Lee
Chris OConnor:: Lee - actually, you cannot increase
the size of your font...now that I check
Aleeharris:: That didn't
work. But I think I can read okay.
Nostradafemme joined
Chris OConnor:: Lee - you can make your chat window
full screen
Jeremy1952:: So let me say this right up front
about "Civilization"
misterpessimistic:: How is Ivan treating you Lee?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Terrible?
Jeremy1952:: It has joined the short list of books
from which I culled entirely new (to me) ideas
Aleeharris:: Ivan has
not been as terrible as expected.
misterpessimistic:: good
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yeah, he lost
punch coming in.
Chris OConnor:: Ivan was heading directly at me
and then decided to change course and bother Lee
Jeremy1952:: I can't say I agree with it all...
heck you probably won't in a few years.... but
I am very glad I read it
misterpessimistic:: Jeremy: I do agree...the ideas
presented were new to me.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - the sign of a good book
is that it gets you to think deeply in my opinion
misterpessimistic:: but I do not agree with much
myself
Jeremy1952:: I gathered from the posts
Chris OConnor:: LOL
misterpessimistic:: lol
Aleeharris:: Join the
club. The ideas in the book were new to them too.
misterpessimistic:: At least I am clear when I
post!!!
misterpessimistic:: lol
Chris OConnor:: Yes, misterpessimistic lived up
to his name!
Chris OConnor:: haha
misterpessimistic:: Lee: New to THEM?
Aleeharris:: Sorry. I
meant to say, New to me. I am dyslexic and I sometimes
substitute the wrong word.
Chris OConnor:: The ideas are new to everyone.
Post 9/11 is a different world.
Nostradafemme:: Hi Chris. Just peeking in for
a minute.
misterpessimistic:: ah
Chris OConnor:: Hello Gerry
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Ah, good.
I was hoping you'd mention that. We've corresponded
before.
Jeremy1952:: I think the whole idea of a fantasy
culture, well we may disagree on what is one or
how it got to be that way, but the concept
Aleeharris:: Mr. Pessimist,
you should have sympathy with the cognitively
impaired.
Jeremy1952:: I find the concept very useful in
understanding the world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia joined
misterpessimistic:: I do Lee...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi room
Jeremy1952:: hi Michael
Chris OConnor:: Lee - are you able to concisely
define the Muslim "fantasy ideology?"
Aleeharris:: My main
concern is with creating metaphors and models
that may be useful as new ways of looking at things.
Chris OConnor:: or the Islamic rather
Jeremy1952:: Our guest is early! That's never
happened before
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - so true!
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Your cognitive
impairment has actually been a source of great
challenge and strength, though, correct?
Aleeharris:: Yes, my
dyslexia has been a blessing. If I had been told
I had it as a child, I would never have read a
book, and certainly I would never have written
one. I would have had an excuse.
Aleeharris:: That is
why it is hard for me to be a pessimist, because
I am aware that what appears bad can turn out
quite nice.
#Mike joined
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: You essentially
had to learn a new way to read?
Chris OConnor:: Lee - wow, so true. When a child
is told he isn't smart or has an impairment....he
then does
misterpessimistic:: Lee: I am optimistically pessimistic
RickU:: Indeed Lee.
Jeremy1952:: What do you think the evolutionary
significance of dyslexia is, Lee? Do you think
it is just not bad enough to have been eliminated,
or is it selected under some circumstances?
Chris OConnor:: mister - lol oh god
Nostradafemme:: I'm very impressed Mr. Harris....how
were you able to overcome your dyslexia?
misterpessimistic:: Chris: I don't agree....from
personal experience
RickU:: Yah...Mr. Pess is a cliché'.
Aleeharris:: No, it was
invented by the Chinese, but no one told me about
it. So I had to reinvent it. I memorized the written
symbol like a picture.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Ah yes,
Chris OConnor:: mister - well, not for you and
not for me, but that's how it seems to work for
many people.
misterpessimistic:: I tend to take criticism and
run for the goal with it
RickU:: Mr. P - it's a fact of research. If people
are told they are a certain thing...often they
become that.
misterpessimistic:: Lee: Explain the picture theory
misterpessimistic:: please
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: In chapter
eleven, you seem to pooh-pooh the idea of "natural
law". Do you think the case is weak, or just
irrelevant against a fantasy ideology?
scrumfish joined
Jeremy1952:: <-- looking up chapter ll
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Let me be
sure I got the right chapter.
Chris OConnor:: Welcome Scrum, Mike and others
Aleeharris:: Had problems.
Hold on.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - ok
misterpessimistic:: I hope pctacitus makes it
Chris OConnor:: Yea, me too
misterpessimistic:: Mike: I enjoyed your posts!
Aleeharris:: I think
natural law can be a useful fiction. But it can
equally well be a dangerous one. It is always
used by those who wish to overthrow established
centers of power.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Beg pardon,
It was chapter 10.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: A useful fiction?
Aleeharris:: Not that
established centers of power don't need overthrowing
now and then.
misterpessimistic:: AGREE
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Like Dan Rather's
memos?
Aleeharris:: Yes.
Jeremy1952:: Ah. Chapter eleven. I disagree about
88%
#Mike:: MP - thanks, I enjoyed yours as well
RickU:: Indeed they do on occasion Lee
Aleeharris:: Disagree
with what?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in Natural
Flaw. Any law, however natural, will be hijacked
for political purposes.
Chris OConnor:: Well, 78% of statistics are made
up on the spot
Nostradafemme left
misterpessimistic:: Lee: Do you really think that
radical Islam is functioning PURELY on a fantasy?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris, I heard it was
98%
Jeremy1952:: I think you wildly exaggerate the
degree to which parenting, and culture for the
matter, determine who we are
Chris OConnor:: lol
Aleeharris:: Do I think
Islam is pure fantasy? No.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I would agree
that they determine us either by conformity or
by reaction to it.
misterpessimistic:: Radical Islam
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: A great deal
anyway.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - what other factors are
involved? Nature and nurture
RickU:: Indeed Brother
misterpessimistic:: Is that the only motivation
they have for attacking us?
Jeremy1952:: Well if I understand Lee correctly,
he is putting it almost all at the feet of culture
RickU:: Nature Nurture and capability Chris. Not
all of us are equally capable of being rational
in my opinion.
izanotski joined
misterpessimistic:: True Rick
Aleeharris:: Of course
they have a complaint. They would like to dominate
their world but they don't know how to do it.,
Therefore they blame it on someone else.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: At this point,
I think radical Islam is in M. Scott Peck's People
of the Lie territory.
Jeremy1952:: Neither, really; cultures have evolved
ways of turning out people different than how
they would have otherwise.
Chris OConnor:: Welcome Izanotski
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: mister--the hardcore
fascist Islamists would attack us no matter what
we did... they require an enemy to have an identity
at all. But most Muslims hate our foreign policy,
and some cheer Bin Laden's side just because he
gives the US what they see as a taste of its own
medicine.
Jeremy1952:: Am I somewhere near the mark, Lee?
RickU:: That's a fairly reasonable assessment
of radical Islam
#Mike:: Lee - why did you feel it necessary to
describe Al-Quaeda and other Islamists as a fantasy
ideology vs. religious fanatism
misterpessimistic:: Michaelangelo: I agree with
that
misterpessimistic:: to an extent
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: An excellent
question.
RickU:: #Mike : What is the difference?
Aleeharris:: You say
that cultures turn people out differently than
they would be otherwise. But what is otherwise?
You can't define what man would be by nature.
There is no such thing.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, what's
the distinction?
RickU:: Another good point Lee
Jeremy1952:: No, I don't' say so.... I am trying
to paraphrase what I think you say, with he purpose
of understanding it
Aleeharris:: I think
that religion is a fantasy, as is art and politics..
They are attached to us by our fantasies.
misterpessimistic:: You are not religious Lee?
Chris OConnor:: which makes sense
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe humans require
fantasy in order to bond
Jeremy1952:: We were on chapter eleven, and the
necessity for shame; and I don't see it that way.
RickU:: However, I think there IS such a thing.
Man IS something by nature. It's just not easy
to identify what it is...especially since man
itself is so diverse
misterpessimistic:: fantasy and myth are good
Aleeharris:: I have been
working on the problem of what religion is for
some months. I once thought I understood it, but
I now see that I don't.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Most interesting.
#Mike:: Lee - but you seem to define fantasy ideology
as something new (20th Century) to the world where
religious fanatism is as old as history
Chris OConnor:: yes, very
RickU:: And in fact, each man IS something by
nature....but the "nature" is different
for every "man"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: even atheism, when
it bonds a group, becomes a fantasy... "we
are the righteous atheists, fighting ignorance"
is more of a story than a truth.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Lee, are you
familiar with "Spengler" at Asia Times?
Aleeharris:: religare
is the Latin word to tie together things that
are not bound by nature.
Jeremy1952:: I think we know more about human
nature than we realize. It is like the fish/water
thing; so much is the same that we don't see it
misterpessimistic:: Same here Lee. I grew up Catholic,
but kind of rejected it from the start now that
I look back...but I still do not understand it
Aleeharris:: Yes, I have
read some Spengler.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: human nature: tell
a story bonding your group in relation to or against
other groups.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - are you able to read and
keep up with how fast things are coming at you?
We can slow it down a bit.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I find him
most fascinating.
Jeremy1952:: Never heard that one, Michaelangelo,
but I'd have to agree: atheism has no truth nor
antithesis to ignorance. Science has that.
misterpessimistic:: Michael: I fight ignorance
every chance I get
Aleeharris:: It is what
ties people together enough so that they can become
reasonable with each other.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fight ignorance with
ignorance.
misterpessimistic:: lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my ignorance is more
accurate than yours
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: So do I. Especially
my own.
Jeremy1952:: It is not ignorant to believe in
god; it is matter of "knowing" something
that isn't true
misterpessimistic:: I just encourage people to
actually THINK
misterpessimistic:: whether or not they agree
with me
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Their "actually
thinking" may differ from yours.
misterpessimistic:: in the end
Aleeharris:: It is like
the Roman love of patria. Only in Islam, it is
a nomadic version. A portable empire to the sedentary
empire of the Romans. Islam is an empire that
is still alive.
RickU:: Michael - but there's a problem with that.
You can't tell the story accurately if you don't
speak the same language, use the same idioms and
haven't grown up in the same environment. Literature,
and word of mouth by translation...are still,
by translation, and that's a secondary translation...as
you've translated your experience into words in
the first place
Jeremy1952:: . . . unfortunately for the rest
of us
misterpessimistic:: that's fine...but I can spot
NON thinking a 20 paces
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: rick--true... telling
a story is more than words, it's a series of bonding
events that may be nonverbal
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: That idea
would make of Islam an imitation of the lews.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: some stories are more
portable than others
Aleeharris:: Every aspect
of the Arab way of thinking about the world differs
from ours. This is not said a s a criticism, just
as a warning. We think we know what they mean,
but we don't.
Jeremy1952:: What are lews? Not familiar with
term/group
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--every aspect?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: And they think
they know what we mean, but don't?
misterpessimistic:: I don't think I know what
my NEIGHBOR means!
misterpessimistic:: I always question everything
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Even questioning?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the Jungian psychological
types have trouble communicating, even if they're
in the same religion
misterpessimistic:: never accept pre-chewed truths
misterpessimistic:: yes even questioning
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Good, so have
I.
misterpessimistic:: I believe that ever answer
has another question
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I have questioned
whether I have any business questioning at all.
Chris OConnor:: Mister - you don't even see the
point behind that statement? You and your neighbor
disagree at times, but you are on the same wavelength.
You value similar things in life.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: But I digress.
Aleeharris:: Islam is
an imitation of Judaism. There is an interesting
book by a Persian scholar called Hagarism--actually
she is English, but the book shows that the first
non-Islam account of the conquest showed that
Islam was a form of Messiahism.
misterpessimistic:: we do have the business to
question
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I question the neural
circuitry that makes me question things
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, a scholar
of my acquaintance has shown me just how much
Islam is an imitation of both Judaism and Christianity.
misterpessimistic:: ALL three major religions
are based on the same nonsense
RickU:: Expound Michael
Aleeharris:: The problem
of questioning. What makes any of us competent
to question?
misterpessimistic:: they are all offshoots
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Of what?
RickU:: Indeed Mr. P
misterpessimistic:: Islam acknowledges Jesus and
Abraham
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Not really.
Jeremy1952:: Does it deny it, Brother William?
I think Islam declares itself an offshoot
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think people
wait until they feel competent to question
misterpessimistic:: Of prior myths
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Abraham, yes.
Aleeharris:: For example,
what value is there questioning the obscure parts
of quantum theory. Will it enlightened you?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Jesus, no.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Islam was the
natural result of Judaism and Christianity
#Mike:: Lee - do you think that there is an inevitable
West/East conflict?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--it might... if
it leads you to a productive thought experiment
misterpessimistic:: If scientists did not question,
there would be no quantum theory
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: But I think
we're moving to fast. I really want to hear Lee,
so I will shut up now.
RickU:: Indeed Lee - by that reasoning why question
anything that you don't fully understand...if
you can ever fully understand anything.
Aleeharris:: The problem
is not Islam as a set of theological doctrines.
Nor is it the Koran. It is a cultural tradition
that forbids male to relate to each other in an
egalitarian spirit.
RickU:: Perhaps it was just a bad example...but
the idea behind such an exercise is that it MIGHT
enlighten you.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: YES!
Aleeharris:: Yes, I am
getting a bit confused. I don't want to ignore
anyone. This is why I think protocols are so important
in life.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I will lay
out.
Aleeharris:: 'That is,
to prevent confusion and unnecessary conflict.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd say there are multiple
Islam's, and some wish to dominate others.
Chris OConnor:: Please slow it down folks....and
no side conversations for awhile
misterpessimistic:: As with any fundamentalist
sect, it is those who apprehend and manipulate
the tenets of any ideology that cause the problems
Aleeharris:: Islam's
genius is that it is acephelous--it has no head.
It is multi-centered. That is why it can resist,
and not conquer.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Is confusion bad? It
always seems to lead me to some new insight, if
I allow confusion to do its job.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: From Lee's
comment it makes sense that Islam and democracy
are incompatible.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Agreed, again.
misterpessimistic:: Brother: Islam, or those who
have apprehended it?
Aleeharris:: Democracy
is incompatible with most culture--a select few
culture in man's history have been cut out for
it. Obnoxious egalitarianians, I call them.
RickU:: The same I would think applies to Christianity.
misterpessimistic:: Do we really know TRUE Islam?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: How do you distinguish
a religion from specific cultural groups who use
religion as their flag, yet have different behavior?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: MP: everyone
is a "fundamentalist" about something.
RickU:: The same multi-headed beast that is.
misterpessimistic:: Or just the NEWS version
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I watch little
news.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: If Democracy doesn't
work for some cultures, can it be shown that some
other system does work for them?
Aleeharris:: Actually
I think that Christianity has been the precondition
of modern egalitarianism.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Agreed, again,
Lee.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: In fact, Protestantism
was the sine qua non of America, as far as I'm
concerned.
Chris OConnor:: Unfortunately, I agree too
Aleeharris:: Yes, there
are other systems, and ones that afford a high
degree of civilization. But people like us insist
on having our own way. We Americans are spoiled
to that.
misterpessimistic:: Spoiled we are! Agree!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--which system
can be shown to work (and define "work")
for Arab cultures?
Aleeharris:: The Protestant
spirit is not sufficiently appreciated.
Jeremy1952:: I'm sorry lee, that's just nonsense
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, to Lee.
Aleeharris:: We tend
to look upon religion as theology, and not a way
of living with each other. How we live with each
other is not nonsense.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: This is where
"Spengler" has been invaluable to me.
Jeremy1952:: Christians are as happy as every
other nut group in demanding people toe the line
#Mike:: Lee - that brings up one of my big questions
in your book: the Spartan Legacy. Do you really
think Sparta had that much influence on Western
culture?
Aleeharris:: Christianity
from the beginning reached out to the rejected
and the despised--this was a deeply needed egalitarian
impulse in a world that was sinking into slavery
and despotism.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Agreed, again
Lee. It is all about how we live with each other.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: What currently reaches
out to the rejected and despised?
Aleeharris:: Yes, Sparta's
influence has been enormous.
Jeremy1952:: And then turned around and did its
own rejecting and despising
Jeremy1952:: The cause and effect simply doesn't
follow
Aleeharris:: It was in
Sparta that the West realized the power of discipled
education.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I think we're
pretty much on the same wavelength, and so I will
pretty much stay out.
misterpessimistic:: Christianity accepted all
comers because the numbers would grow quicker
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm not sure American
Christianity currently reaches out to the rejected,
unless they're the already Christian dogma-accepting
rejected.
Jeremy1952:: We have some very good things in
the west... but they follow from Protestantism?
#Mike:: Lee - was not Rome more influential?
Aleeharris:: Yes, Christianity
did as you said. All systems fail--but Christianity
is unique in insisting on massive and global reforms
every so often.
Chris OConnor:: The section about Sparta was fascinating.
I can't fathom existing in such a society.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Well, it did
promise "life abundant."
misterpessimistic:: I liked that Chapter
misterpessimistic:: I do not know much about Sparta
to offer much.
Aleeharris:: Rome and
Sparta were understood in much the same light--an
egalitarian republics.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see a lot of Christian
groups moving toward the apocalyptic belief in
a confrontation with the Islamic world... not
sure that's a positive trend.
Aleeharris:: I agree.
misterpessimistic:: No it is not Michael
RickU:: Chris - Me either ...but it did apparently
shape how we would operate in successful societies
in the future
Chris OConnor:: Brother - no need to stay out
of the discussion
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: They fail
to realize that the apocalypse is always going
on.
#Mike:: But Rome's influence seems greatest when
it was no longer a Republic?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: That the wheat
is always being separated from the chaff.
Aleeharris:: Apocalypticism
is one of the movements that sweeps whole periods
clean---it doesn't occur, but the belief that
it will occur is transformative.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Bingo.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - good point
misterpessimistic:: Yes. Lee.
Jeremy1952:: Unless, of course it turns in to
a self-fulfilling prophecy
Aleeharris:: Yes, Rome
as an Empire was far mightier than as a Republic--not
less free
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - but when has it?
misterpessimistic:: I read about something similar
in Charles Kimball's book "When Religion
Becomes Evil"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Self-fulfilling prophesies
are becoming more and more possible
Jeremy1952:: Learning from history is good, on
the one hand; but on the other, humans have never
had the technology we have now
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it doesn't take that
many people now to open the "vials of wrath"
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: All the more
reason for pre-emption then, eh?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree Jeremy... we've
never re-enacted the Crusades with nukes before.
misterpessimistic:: and the packaging is better
today too Michael
Jeremy1952:: bingo
Aleeharris:: Most of
our technology is magic to us. Few of us understand
how the techno world works. And fewer care.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Which is a
shame.
#Mike:: Lee - good point, and Rome's influence
on Christianity's development also seems critical
Jeremy1952:: I'm not sure why we should. Care
how it works. But we do need to know what it can
do
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Without Rome, there'd
be no book of Revelation
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think we need to
know how WE work, even more than how technology
works.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I don't see
how we can ever really know how we work.
Aleeharris:: yes, the
Church picked up the system of the central hierarchy
from the Romans.
misterpessimistic:: When we don't care, we take
things for granted.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: That would
be like taking our eyes out to look at them.
izanotski:: Did I miss Lee's answer to which religion
now is appealing to the 'rejected and despised'?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think we can
know completely how anything works, but we can
learn by successive approximations.
Jeremy1952:: Ah, now there's a good point, Michael.
And a good reason not to accommodate religion
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, but that
hierarchy was shattered at the Reformation. And
thus, America became possible.
Aleeharris:: Yes, Indeed--there
is what we desperately need to know. How we work.
Aleeharris:: The problem is that self-knowledge
is difficult both at the individual and at the
collective level--perhaps worse in the latter
case.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Accommodate religious
beliefs, just don't accommodate fanatical behavior.
I've met fanatical atheists; they're as obnoxious
as fanatical Christians or Muslims.
Jeremy1952:: Like everything else that we have
good information on, Lee, we are learning from
science.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I still maintain
that everyone is a fanatic about something.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Self-knowledge usually
comes from trial and error
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: mostly error
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I wonder if
fanatic isn't sometimes just a word we used to
criminalize "what we don't like."
Jeremy1952:: But as long as attachment to ancient
fables guides behavior we won't understand on
a large scale
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree with Brother,
although people have different behavior. Some
defend boundaries gently, others with pre-emptive
force.
misterpessimistic:: Brother: Are you a fanatic
about making us fanatics?
Aleeharris:: Yes, the
strangest fact about America is this. IT become
the home of congregationalism, a protestant form
of church organization in which everyone was equal
in authority.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd distinguish between
fanatical beliefs and fanatical behavior. My wife's
church is fundamentalist, but they're all very
nice people. I can reject their dogma without
rejecting their cultural integrity.
Jeremy1952:: Only on paper, Lee. It never really
works that way
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Nice doesn't
necessarily equal good. but I take your point.
Aleeharris:: Congregationalism
was doomed in Europe---but it spread like wild
fire here. It was created in Europe, but made
for the USA.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--how common is
that today though? I don't see that many Christians
accepting that each person in the congregation
has the right to their own interpretation of scripture.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: It's another
useful fiction,
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: YES!
Aleeharris:: No a fanatic
is a real person. We all know fanatics who agreed
with us to our horror.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Brother--I'd say they're
good people. They don't have to believe in evolution
for me to see them as good.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I don't "believe"
in evolution, either.
Aleeharris:: That is,
fanatics who are on our side, but who fill us
with horror and revulsion.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: But that's
not where we should go.....
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree with Alee,
it's behavior more than belief.
misterpessimistic:: no fanatic is on my side
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, I know
of what you speak, Lee.
misterpessimistic:: a fanatic is dangerous, no
matter how much sense he she makes
RickU:: I agree w/ Jeremy's last.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Within my
own family, even.
Jeremy1952:: ty Rick
Aleeharris:: No, It is
always easy to show how a cultural system fails.
In fact, we egalitarian minded Americans seem
compelled to do that, probably in order to protect
our freedom.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: does fanaticism run
in families?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--but how do you
tell which part of a culture was responsible for
failure? A democracy might fail, not because it's
a democracy but because of some other factor...
Aleeharris:: The fanatic
cannot see the point of view of the other person--he
does not even believe him to be sincere.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Or even exist,
as anything more than an abstraction.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: In a multivariable
system you can blame any variable for the failure
of the whole
Jeremy1952:: Whew, that lets me off the hook then,
Lee
Jeremy1952:: I'm convinced of the sincerity of
the "others"
Jeremy1952:: It's part of what makes them so scary
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Mark Steyn
made an incredible point in a column the other
day.....
Aleeharris:: Democracy
is a difficult system--it is like a difficult
jump from the high bars. Some people can do it
easily- Others get hurt.'
#Mike:: Lee - have you any new thoughts on the
subject or revisions to your ideas since the book?
RickU:: Lee - difficult indeed...in any form of
Democracy someone is going to get hurt
misterpessimistic:: Democracy is taken for granted
izanotski:: Is there a similarity between the
actions of a single fanatic, the actions of a
single fan, and the actions of the mob, and a
single member of a mob?
RickU:: That is, indeed, part of the reason for
a constitution.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: at least democracy
provides rapid turnover.... probably better than
letting a family of despots become more and more
corrupt until civil war breaks out
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: It's the terrorist
who cannot see the humanity of the little girl
18 inches away from him, while we train our bomber
pilots to think of blips on a screen a hospital,
holy sites, and "oh, there's the enemy, let's
hit that one."
misterpessimistic:: people should be educated
in government and politics more and have to test
to vote
RickU:: Rules for the democracy are set in 'stone'.....kind
of...not really
Aleeharris:: Yes, I have
many thoughts about where I went wrong in my book.
That is why I am writing another one.
Chris OConnor:: Slow it down a bit folks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if every system tends
to put more and more power in the hands of fewer
people, then you want a built in mechanism for
shaking things up every so often
Chris OConnor:: Please slow it down a bit
misterpessimistic:: When will the book come out
Lee?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I will lay
out.
Aleeharris:: You cannot
build in a mechanism for shaking things up. You
can only hope you can produce people who will.
#Mike:: Lee - can you give us any "sneak
peeks"?
Aleeharris:: I haven't
finished my new book yet. I hope to soon.
Jeremy1952:: Hmm. Isn't, Lee, periodic elections
just such a mechanism? Term limits?
misterpessimistic:: Lee: The Constitution is a
mechanism for shaking things up
Chris OConnor:: Brother - that isn't what I'm
asking people to do....just slow down a bit so
Lee can keep on track
RickU:: Lee - you can provide an environment in
which "movers and shakers" get to lay
out their ideas for consideration...at the very
least
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, but it
won't work that way. I am content to just watch.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--but isn't that
what democracy is supposed to be? A way to provide
regular regime change?
Jeremy1952:: I mean, the mechanisms won't work
if there aren't the people to support it
Aleeharris:: I decided
to trace civilization as far back as I could,
and I ended up learning a lot about primates.
Jeremy1952:: But that doesn't mean that there
are not mechanisms
Aleeharris:: Our founding
fathers would have been horrified to discover
that we had political parties. They didn't want
regime change, but a regime of virtue. they had
a fantasy ideology themselves.
Jeremy1952:: Wow. I'm looking forward to reading
it already
RickU:: I have had the same thought Lee. They
wouldn't be happy that the party system came into
place.
misterpessimistic:: True...parties were not an
option
RickU:: (Likely)
Aleeharris:: I was also
struck by a conspiracy among contemporary archaeologist
to make it seem that mankind had a peaceful and
harmonious prehistory--one big happy family
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Rousseaueans.
RickU:: But they also may not have recognized
that such a large divisions could exist within
their framework either.
Aleeharris:: Jefferson
inadvertently invented the party system. He meant
only to bring the republic of virtue back. He
wanted there to be only one party--his.
Jeremy1952:: Not exactly "contemporary",
Lee; that crowd has pretty much been out of favor
for the last two or three decades
#Mike:: Lee - that was one of my major criticisms
of your book (a book I liked, by the way), that
you seemed to overlook the importance of agriculture
(and eventual loyalty to land) in the development
of civilization -- any thoughts?
RickU:: Just like they couldn't have envisioned
automatic weapons, for instance
RickU:: Good question Mike! And kind of a nice
lead in to a questioning the role of Nationalism
(healthy/unhealthy/other)
Aleeharris:: yes, you
are right about the Rousseau part. But there is
also a big dollop of Marxist materialism. I accept
the materialism,
but turn it around on the Marxist.
I show that there was originally lots of inequality,
and that certain civilizations produced equality.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I think a
one world regime is practically impossible, and
so nationalism becomes important for "shaking
things up."
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Although strictly
speaking "American" is not a nationality.
Aleeharris:: The importance
of agriculture was neglected. I am paying attention
to it in my new book.
Chris OConnor:: Brother - I agree. It will never
happen
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think nationalism
will be tested as people define themselves more
and more by interest and associate regularly with
people in far away places
Aleeharris:: You're right.
We are not a nationality.
RickU:: I won't say that it will never happen
RickU:: It just won't happen in our lifetimes.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: So, for all
intents and purposes, it won't happen.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think top-down rule
is doomed in the long term
RickU:: We're a closed system...(Earth) Eventually.
Someday...we'll come to equilibrium.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Exactly.
Aleeharris:: We are held
together by a bond every bit as strange as the
bond of Muslim. We fuss and feud with each other,
but we are still ready to confront an attacker
when he is attacking us.
Chris OConnor:: Hundreds of years minimum
misterpessimistic:: Are we not BECOMING a nationality
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Nope.
RickU:: And I think that's an important point
Lee
Aleeharris:: No, I don't
believe in equilibrium. We can never get it right--thank
God.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Although,
a la "Spengler" it would be a bad thing
if we did.
Jeremy1952:: Here's the giant non sequitur of
lauding Protestantism as a 'cause': it seems much
more likely that an egalitarian religion was able
to flourish in an egalitarian society
Jeremy1952:: A society founded, after all, by
deists, deeply suspicious of religious authority
Aleeharris:: Thank God
because it is only by getting it wrong and fixing
it, over and over again, that we can retain our
dignity and freedom as human beings. Otherwise
we become puppets.
Brother William of Baskerville 02::
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think we're puppets
anyway. We just like to think the strings are
inside us rather than outside.
Jeremy1952:: Of course it could be either way
but I don't think such purported causalities hold
water
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: MG: Perhaps
you are confusing necessary conditions for determinism?
Aleeharris:: Yeas, they
were deeply suspicious of religious authority--that
is why they chose congregationalism as the national
religion. You could be a Jew or a Catholic, as
long you stay in your own congregation.
Aleeharris:: No, we are
not puppets. I have devoted my entire life to
not being one.
Jeremy1952:: So the egalitarianism was a cause,
not effect, of congregationalism
misterpessimistic:: AMEN!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I find I can only maintain
the illusion of free will by deliberately not
noticing the factors that go into my actions.
Aleeharris:: I can never
imagine an argument for determinism so powerful
that it could persuade me that I was not free.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Arrows of
causality are difficult to pin down, of course.
#Mike:: Lee - do you think that's one of the unique
aspects of the West: our ability/desire to look
at others and ourselves critically and reevaluate
how we do things?
Jeremy1952:: And did you decide to do that, Michael?
Jeremy1952:: Or are you compelled to?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think freedom is
relative.... I'm "free" because I'm
not in prison. But my genes, emotions, etc. control
me still.
RickU:: AMEN @ the puppet comment
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: You think
you've got it all figured out, and then somebody
comes along and stands you on your head.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy --was inevitable,
I'd think
Aleeharris:: Of course,
factors go into my decisions. But the decision
can be free. Or again we may decide for it to
not be free, as when we flip a coin.
Jeremy1952:: Control you, Michael, or ARE you?
RickU:: Michael - as well as societal constraints.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy --both
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Nature is
what we were put on this earth to rule. That includes
human nature, MG.
Jeremy1952:: If what you are controls you then
... you are in control
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm often controlled
by societal constraints... so much so that I don't
even THINK to defy various unstated taboos.
Jeremy1952:: That's disgusting, Brother Baskerville
Aleeharris:: Nothing
controls you. That is where the root cause nonsense
arose about the terrorists. They were acting freely.
They are accomplishing a goal they set themselves.
We are wrong to treat them as things.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I would apologize,
if it were my fault.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, it's
a kind of reverse fantasy ideology.
misterpessimistic:: I feel the constraints of
society as well, but I tend to fight against them....much
to my dismay sometimes...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--we treat them
as things when we kill them, aren't we? We're
not saying they're free to change, but that we
don't believe they can or will change.
#Mike:: Very true Lee
Jeremy1952:: No need to apologize: you express
your opinion, I express mine, and then we have
a Guinness
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Pinot noir,
in my case.
Aleeharris:: The terrorists
have wants and desires and ambitions. We don't
like these, and most of us think that their ambitions
are fantasies. But they are not mere mechanism
subject to external cause.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--but we kill them,
believing there's no way they will freely change.
Chris OConnor:: We're all products of our environments,
cultures, genetics and countless other variables,
but the terrorists ultimately made decisions for
which they should be held accountable
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: If we believed they
could change, we'd have less certainty about the
need to kill them.
Aleeharris:: You feel
the constraint of society, but thank God so do
other people.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: No, we precisely
DON'T treat them as things, because we kill them.
We take them seriously, and think, "they
should have known better".
RickU:: There IS a difference between sentience
and non-sentience
misterpessimistic:: So has Bush
Jeremy1952:: On the other hand, Michael, if they
thought WE could change, they wouldn't' feel such
need to kill us
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy --true
RickU:: But it doesn't mean we shouldn't respect
the non-sentient beings place in the world
Aleeharris:: Well, it
isn't possible for us to kill them.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: That is, they
share some common humanity and should have known
better.
Aleeharris:: We are too
civilized, for better or worse.
Jeremy1952:: It still seems worth while to try
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, evil
always has the initiative it seems.
RickU:: That's a troubling thought Lee
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we can change the minds
of most Muslims if we show a standard of fairness,
but I don't think you can change a hardcore fascist
personality, except to marginalize him and make
it so he has no immunity from consequence.
Aleeharris:: In this
world, evil does have the initiative, But i think
this is because we are all so skeptical of the
possibility of the good.
misterpessimistic:: It is possible for us to kill
any number of people nowadays...eventually leading
to us as well
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: G K Chesterton:
Over-civilization and barbarism are but an inch
apart.....
#Mike:: But, if we don't kill them/defend ourselves,
why would they change?
Aleeharris:: I disagree
with Mr. pessimistic.
misterpessimistic:: Why?
Aleeharris:: I think
we are rather well-behaved as a people.
misterpessimistic:: but it only takes one nut
with one bomb to set off the chain
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Almost to
the point of blinding conformity....
misterpessimistic:: if it were aimed at us
Aleeharris:: Yes, you
are right, Mr. P.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: For good or
ill, I'm not sure.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most "good"
people will do evil if an authority figure tells
them they have to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or if the people they
trust set the example
misterpessimistic:: hmmm
misterpessimistic:: yes Michael
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: No, most "nice"
people would. Good ones wouldn't.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - yes, a proven point
Aleeharris:: Authorities
become authorities often because they can be trusted.
izanotski:: We may be well-behaved as a 'people'
but it takes just one person to screw it up.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'd like to think that
we, in this chat room, are not a part of that
"most people"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: authorities become
authorities because they can manipulate symbol
systems
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: We haven't
been tested toughly enough most likely.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--I try never
to rest in pride.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - and have earned and deserve
that trust
Aleeharris:: We all contain
"most people" within us, at some layer
of our existence. It is not a bad thing, either.
scrumfish:: /nick scrumfish-away
misterpessimistic:: ?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: People tend to trust
those who share their enemies, regardless of whether
they ought to.
Aleeharris:: Yes, of
course there are dreadful authority figures, But
the concept of authority should not be treated
as an automatic Bad Thing. That is simplistic.
#Mike:: Lee - do you think civilization is just
tolerance and peaceable ness, or is there something
more important?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - excellent point
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: political parties being
one example. I wouldn't trust either of them,
but each gets trust because it postures as the
opposite of something worse.
Aleeharris:: Yes, our
survival has often depended on trusting those
who share our enemies. That is wisdom in it.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - true
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: In a variegated
system among diverse people, how could it be otherwise?
RickU:: Indeed...Authority of one kind or another
certainly isn't always a bad thing.
Aleeharris:: I don't
understand the political parties this year. They
have disgraced themselves.
misterpessimistic:: I don't buy that "the
enemy of my enemy' bull
RickU:: There have been several "benevolent"
dictatorships that were quite successful until
the heir took over
misterpessimistic:: maybe it was what happened
in the past, but it is time to grow up past these
catch phrases
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Parties are
a "mean". They average out the diverse
tendencies. I happen to think a two party republican
(small "r") government is the worst,
except for all the others.
Aleeharris:: You don't
need to buy it, Mr. P. I am simply stating the
fact that if someone is out to get you, you will
welcome allies.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--I understand
it. People are projecting their own dark side
onto the other. Our society has a problem, and
nobody wants to see it in him or herself, so they
see it in the other side.
misterpessimistic:: But not one I didn't like
much to begin with
Aleeharris:: The problem
of succeeding a dictatorship is a tricky one.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Lee, how did
the GOP let you down? (I know how it let me down,
but ...)
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: turnover of power is
inevitable... a flexible system will be able to
ride out the periodic storms.
Aleeharris:: That is
why a dictatorship is always foolish if there
is any alternative.
misterpessimistic:: Because dictators flourish
on their personality, and that is not necessarily
inherited by the successor
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dictatorships may also
induce dependency, which leads to greater violence
later on when the strongman is gone
Aleeharris:: Yes, but
what makes the system flexible? No document can
do this. Again, it is the habits of the heart
that keep us free.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, will
trumps intellect.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't know if I like
our current habits of heart
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: expectations trump
will
Aleeharris:: Dependency
also induced dictatorships. This seems to be what
happens in the Mideast over and over.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nods at Alee
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Will and expectations
is a distinction I wouldn't press much.
Aleeharris:: Yes, some
of our more recent habits of the heart are disturbing.
I am 56 and sometimes I think that the kids are
just awful.
Aleeharris:: Of course,
I may just be an old fart.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd say a system which
promotes more learning experiments on the part
of more people would be a good one, as opposed
to one which relies on authority to give commands.
misterpessimistic:: No...They are awful Lee
misterpessimistic:: and I am only 34
Aleeharris:: We agree--in
part.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: We have the
kids we deserve, I fear.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think kids feel betrayed
by adults, given a world they don't think can
last.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: And hope.
Jeremy1952:: I was at my kids school, and teacher
after teacher talked about what a wonderful class
this is, one of the best
Aleeharris:: Maybe they
will grow on you as you get older.
misterpessimistic:: I raise mine better than the
average...much
misterpessimistic:: LEE lol
Aleeharris:: Good to
hear, Mr. P.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: A girl once told me
she drank because she didn't see any future for
the world. Why be moral if you don't expect the
world to survive?
misterpessimistic:: that is horse!
macbroo joined
misterpessimistic:: cop out
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Kids look worse than
they are if you judge them as a group rather than
individuals. So do Republicans, Democrats, etc.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Well, the
end of the world, isn't really. It's just the
end of us.
Jeremy1952:: Because its the right thing to do,
Michael?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Hello Macbroo.
Aleeharris:: That is
a great question Civilization require something
to hope for, something bright to move toward.
We are giving people nothing.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy--the "right
thing to do" isn't easy when you have no
framework for trust
Chris OConnor:: Welcome Macbroo
misterpessimistic:: True Michael...that is true
for ANY group
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, "Spengler"
again.
Jeremy1952:: What does the end of the world have
to do with trust?
macbroo:: hi
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: judge any group by
its loudest members, and you'll think the group
is awful
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Mac, this
is P-Prof.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy--it erodes faith
Chris OConnor:: Why does a dying man maintain
his morality?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Here.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Because it's
not his.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--in hopes of
an afterlife?
Aleeharris:: The first
Spengler believed that civilizations just run
out of stream--they age and decay.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Right.
Jeremy1952:: Morality is the best way to be. That's
why its the way we are. Which, in turn, is why
the fact that we all die is quite irrelevant
Chris OConnor:: There is no difference between
believing the world will end, or knowing your
own world will end
Chris OConnor:: Michael - ahh tis true
Aleeharris:: A man dying
maintains his morality to set a good example to
the world he leaves behind.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: morality promotes a
framework of trust. It's hard to be moral to an
enemy you believe will betray you.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's hard to be moral
to people you see as immoral
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Although,
although Chesterton despised the idea that we
could never break out of the Cycles of History.
I think I agree with him.
Jeremy1952:: It is not immoral to kill an enemy
who will betray you
#Mike:: Lee - do you think that's why civilizations
such as the Egyptian and Chinese stagnated for
so long?
Aleeharris:: No, I am
absolutely sure that the whole world will end
with me. So I advise everyone to be very nice.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Some situations are
set up so that being moral earns you punishment
rather than reward. In those situations, people
lose their morals.
Brother William of Baskerville 02::
Jeremy1952:: Lol Lee
RickU:: That's because morality is subjective
RickU:: morality, sorry
Chris OConnor:: hah
Jeremy1952:: Only on the edges, RickU
Jeremy1952:: At its core it is not
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Is the subjectivity
of morality objectively true?
Chris OConnor:: Now that's self-confidence
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've seen people who
believed they were moral do immoral things to
people they considered immoral.
Aleeharris:: China and
Egypt were constantly going through crises that
changed nothing.
RickU:: No Jeremy - There are very few moral "truths".
They're displayed on and off in the worlds religions
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Maybe it was
more complicated than that.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, Lee.
Jeremy1952:: Wrong place to look, RickU. Religions
simply confound morality
Chris OConnor:: I thought China suffered due to
an isolationist policy
Aleeharris:: Hegel argued
that morality was subjective--up to us as individuals.
Ethics was collective--it was what bonds us as
a group.
RickU:: I don't think so Jeremy - they're a good
place to look for a groups values (morals) as
any
RickU:: Without being to ask them anyway
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: well, I tend
to agree with C.S.Lewis that there must be some
ideal somewhere by which to judge progress.
Jeremy1952:: It may be up to us as individuals,
Lee; in fact I'm sure it is; but the inclination
to be moral is an evolved attribute of human species
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Or progress
is a meaningless word.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: some animals show both
the moral and amoral traits humans have
Aleeharris:: Are there
universal moral truths. Only if and to the degree
that a society insists that they are, and enforced
these truths as a moral baseline.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yup.
Jeremy1952:: Nope. Most of morality is innate
and constant
Aleeharris:: For example,
the way the world rid itself of slavery. It could
no longer be tolerated by the civilizations that
had to put up with it.
Jeremy1952:: It's just the parts that aren't that
catch our attention
Chris OConnor:: Exactly. Morality is subjective...and
that which a social group collectively agrees
upon
Aleeharris:: How can
you believe that most morality is moral and constant?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I do think
though that sometimes we make progress only when
we can afford to.
RickU:: Right Chris
Jeremy1952:: Nobody anywhere, anywhen, Lee, goes
around whacking whoever around them they feel
like
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: It would be moral of
us to stop using so much oil, but I don't think
we will until it runs out or there's an embargo.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I.e. Child
labor was abolished only when survival no longer
depended on child labor.
Aleeharris:: No, progress
has been made by people who despire material goods.
Jeremy1952:: We get along with the people around
us one way or another;
Aleeharris:: I meant
to write despise.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: It would be moral of
us to care as much for strangers as friends, but
we don't do that.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - we've read books here
on BookTalk that touched on the subjective nature
of morality, such as Guns, Germs and Steel. I'm
surprised you see it differently.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Lee the f5
key will allow you to edit your last post.
#Mike:: But if morality is subjective (i.e., relative),
then how can we condemn the horrors of Nazis?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Most of our morals
are pretty pragmatic... take care of those who
may help you later, etc.
Jeremy1952:: We don't attack ; we don't rape;
we act morally in our every day affairs
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Mike--we can subjectively
hate it enough to fight it.
RickU:: lol..I went to look up despire - I thought
it was just a word I wasn't familiar with
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: LOL
Aleeharris:: You condemn
the horror of the Nazism by killing them.
Jeremy1952:: We don't kill the children of a woman
we want to have children with
Chris OConnor:: The Yanomamo people consider murder
and rape to be completely acceptable....under
certain conditions
Jeremy1952:: Why not?
Jeremy1952:: Lots of animals do
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy -because you'd
lose the woman, for one thing.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: They live
in grass huts, right?
RickU:: Aztecs thought murder was fine too (ritual
sacrifice)
Aleeharris:: I vote that
we make "despire" a word--a word in
search of a definition.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, we certainly do
kill them. The Yanomamo do indeed.
Jeremy1952:: And that's why you don't do it? I
don't think so.
RickU:: seconded
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I have one
I want to nominate as well.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: The Aztecs
were wrong.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy--hard to say
why... we all want to be seen as good people,
but do we really know why we do things?
Jeremy1952:: BTW Chris, if we are looking at sources,
a lot of my ideas come from Pinker
Chris OConnor:: The Yanomamo go to a neighboring
tribe and kill the children and men and steal
the women, take them home, rape them, etc...
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - ahh
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't want to see
myself as a bad person... but is that social pressure,
internalized social pressure, early imprinting,
or genetics?
macbroo:: please don't talk about that stuff
Aleeharris:: No, we don't
kill the children of the woman we want to have
children with--but that is simply a tautology.
Jeremy1952:: Doesn't matter to my point, Michael....
we do lots and lots of good things, all the time,
all of us
#Mike:: But "killing them" is not the
same thing as determining it is an immoral position.
What's to prevent us from doing the same thing
or going down the same path?
Jeremy1952:: Good moral things that we don't'
even think about and don't question why others
don't do it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy --but why do
we do good things? To avoid feeling bad about
ourselves?
Jeremy1952:: This is the moral foundation, the
evolved commonality
RickU:: Lee - I have to know before you decide
to run...What did you think of this experience
(I'm presuming from your initial reaction that
this is new to you)?
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: If that 's
the best we can do, ...
Jeremy1952:: No, we do good things because that
is who we are.
Aleeharris:: There is
no law or rule or insight that prevent people
from going bad--you must at some point be willing
to keep them from acting to dominate you or those
you love.
Chris OConnor:: Rick - good question!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy --"who
we are" is a tautology.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Yes, your
book made that clear.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alee--maybe it's all
about repeated learning trials, rather than dogma.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - and who are you voting for
in Nov.?
Jeremy1952:: Only if you deliberately ignore the
longer phrase that it is shorthand for
Aleeharris:: Yes, I am
aged, and it is getting to be my bed time. The
experience has been invigorating, but I feel rather
bad that I couldn't respond to everyone's remarks.
I found myself writing like crazy, and then trying
to catch up.
Aleeharris:: Who I am
voting for?
Jeremy1952:: Well thanks so much for coming
#Mike:: But how can you even say it's "bad"
if morality is completely subjective. What keeps
me from going "bad" if I believe all
morality is relative?
Chris OConnor:: Lee - you've done a fantastic
job
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Thanks, indeed.
RickU:: Thanks a lot indeed
Jeremy1952:: And glad we could give you a new
experience!
Chris OConnor:: Lee - Yes, we do have a presidential
election coming up!
Aleeharris:: I just don't
like Kerry. It is a position that I feel, and
hence I cannot offer an intelligent argument.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Mike--I know I don't
like eating vomit. Nobody needs to punish me if
I eat vomit; it's a physical reaction. I feel
the same about "Evil".
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Feelings,
nothing more than feelings.....
Aleeharris:: Perhaps
he has too much hair.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - wow....you and me both
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Growing on
the inside, I fear.
Aleeharris:: Yes, but
feelings are vastly under appreciated.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like Kerry because
he's a flip-flopper, and I like sandals. I get
all my beliefs from talk radio.
Chris OConnor:: I didn't want to steer this to
a discussion of the election though
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I appreciate
them, much.
Chris OConnor:: too heated for now
#Mike:: Michael - but why do you have that intrinsic
reaction?
Chris OConnor:: Michael - ROFL
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Mike--because I was
raised without violence, and violence makes me
physically ill.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wish politics wasn't
all marketing and branding
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Domestic tranquility
isn't on the agenda I'm afraid.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - Yes, I agree
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: We are the
strangest country ever.
Jeremy1952:: I don't see where the democrats have
been particularly unpleasant, or disingenuous
anywhere to the scale that the republicans are
RickU:: As you become more familiar with the forum
Lee - it should become quite rewarding.
Chris OConnor:: Brother - strange, but successful
Aleeharris:: I was raised
without violence, and I loathe it too. But I think
those who particularly hate it have an obligation
to understand it.
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Successful
because strange, I hope.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree lee.
RickU:: I don't abhor violence
#Mike:: Michael - so was it a fantasy of subjective
morality that lead to that upbringing, or can
we ever say something is "evil" as a
truth?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Mike--I don't know
if "evil" has meaning unless you attach
some concrete thing to it
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: I don't either,
but I do respect "HONEST" pacifism.
Maybe they see something I don't. But the reverse
may be true too.
RickU:: In fact, I embrace that it will happen
to me
Aleeharris:: If you forgive
me, I must now bow out. My head is spinning a
bit. I have been writing all day, since 4:30 this
morning.
RickU:: And that I must react to it.
Chris OConnor:: Lee - you've been a pleasure.
Thank you very much for spending the time with
us tonight!
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Thank again,
lee.
RickU:: G'night Lee...it's been great
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I could show why widespread
dishonesty might be bad for social cohesion, but
I can't prove social cohesion is "good"
in any absolute way. I just know it feels bad
when you don't have any.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye Alee
Aleeharris:: But my deepest
thanks to everyone who has come on board. I will
try to visit again.
Chris OConnor:: And thank Alan for his assistance
scrumfish:: Thank you
#Mike:: Lee - Thanks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have to go too...
later guys
Chris OConnor:: Lee - we've enjoyed it
Jeremy1952:: That's your genes talking to you,
Michael
Chris OConnor:: Goodnight Lee
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy --it could be
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: MG, yes, it
is hard to prove an a priori.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: later everyone
Brother William of Baskerville 02:: Impossible
possibly.
Aleeharris:: goodnight
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