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Torture

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Niall001
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Re: Torture

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Quote:Yes. If the US had tortured these people and wanted to keep it secret they would not have released them. Some of their stories are ludicrous, thrown to lions... give me a break.So you wouldn't have believe the allegations of the inmates of Abu Gharib before the proof was made public then? Those who'd been release were making allegations but they were ignored until the proof was found. They couldn't understand why nobody believed them. You're taking the same approach that people use to take to allegations of child abuse. Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard MathesonThere are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes
Luck of the Draw

Re: Torture

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But who are we to say our way is the best way?And that is exactly that which you see going on. How many governments have we tweaked, how many duly elected have we displaced/ assasinated, how many coups have we been a part of and civilians/innocents suffered the results? LoTD"If the truth ever wins ask which lie fought for it"--Nietzche"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
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Frank 013
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Torture

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I never said ours was the best way, in fact I earlier mentioned the fact that thinking like that was one of our biggest mistakes.We have killed more than our share of innocents in our history, but in nearly every previous engagement we have made the world a better place for it. When people say we have a moral high ground to up hold I almost have to laugh. Let's take a quick stroll down memory lane shall we. The revolutionary war: Colonists attacked British forces from hiding; this was considered cowardly and against the rules of war at the time. Sneak attack after sneak attack. Where was our morality then?The civil war: Soldiers raped the enemy's women and killed their families, and for fun burned down their homes. This is the best example of American morality because we were doing this to our own people. WWII: When we carpet bombed cities, put Asian Americans in concentration camps, dropped two nukes on Japanese cities, Morality?Vietnam: When our troops were raping and shooting women and children, what happened to our famous morality there? America has no claim to moral authority, we are just like any other people, we will do what we must to survive. Iraq: We have inadvertently killed civilians; we have tortured a small number of suspected insurgents, some of our people have crossed over the line of acceptable behavior in the care of prisoners. (Nothing new for us.)Here is the real irony, the Iraqi people do not fear us for the most part, we are not terrorizing them. They do however fear a surprise attack from insurgents. Despite the bad press, we have been more humane during this action than any other prolonged fight in our history. We have more accurate weapons which help keep the civilian body count down; we go out of our way not to destroy the Iraqi religious sites, We feed them, we help clothe them, we are helping rebuild their cities, We have put the Iraqi police and fighting force at the front of their own operations. The insurgents however, leave bombs in crowded areas to blow up people indiscriminately, they kidnap foreign civilians and cut their heads off on camera, they attack public centers with suicide car bombers. They single out civilian targets because they are cowards and civilians are softer targets. Despite all of this somehow we are the immoral ones, why? Because we can't control every soldier every second of the day. Or because we saved some US and Iraqi lives by using questionable methods?Even with all of the damage we have done in Iraq it pales in comparison to the death caused by their previous ruler. But somehow we are still the bad guys.In my opinion we have no business ever sending our troops out of this country again. We need to wall up our country and become isolationists. Because if we don't have the unity to fight when necessary, if we do not have the stomach for fighting even for a good cause, If we cannot even stand to see evil people who want us dead suffer, than we have no business in any war. Peace is the goal, but we have to be ready when we meet wicked peoples with no respect for that goal. We are not.Later
Luck of the Draw

Re: Torture

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F013---We have killed more than our share of innocents in our history, but in nearly every previous engagement we have made the world a better place for it. A better place for whom exactly? F013---Here is the real irony, the Iraqi people do not fear us for the most part, we are not terrorizing them. I would think carpet bombing/cluster bombs, the way we bomb the shit out of them, not once, twice, but three times would be a terrorizing ordeal. F013---We have more accurate weapons which help keep the civilian body count down; Was of the understanding, they aren't as accurate as we are led to believe. F013----we go out of our way not to destroy the Iraqi religious sites, We feed them, we help clothe them, we are helping rebuild their cities, We have put the Iraqi police and fighting force at the front of their own operations.It would appear the right thing to do seeing we are the source and it benefits us quite well, no? The Cheney- Halliburton story is the classic military-industrial revolving door tale. As Secretary of Defense under Bush I, Cheney paid Brown and Root services (now Kellogg Brown and Root) $3.9 million to report on how private companies could help the U.S. Army as Cheney cut hundreds of thousands of Army jobs. Then Brown and Root won a five-year contract to provide logistics for the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers all over the globe. In 1995, Cheney became CEO and Halliburton jumped from 73rd to 18th on the Pentagon's list of top contractors, benefiting from at least $3.8 billion in federal contracts and taxpayer-insured loans, according to the Center for Public Integrity.www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=6288 F013---The insurgents however, leave bombs in crowded areas to blow up people indiscriminately, they kidnap foreign civilians and cut their heads off on camera, they attack public centers with suicide car bombers. They single out civilian targets because they are cowards and civilians are softer targets. What could their reason for this sort of response be? F013...In my opinion we have no business ever sending our troops out of this country again. We need to wall up our country and become isolationists.I don't think we have to practice isolationism, simply be that which we bill ourselves to be about. Walk the walk so's to speak. There was a time, truth, honor, intregrity meant something. It was that which others found appealing about us, no? Would also agree, should reconsider if there is in division amongst fellow citizens/global community pertaining war/invasions etc.Public opinon/bodies returning had impact in Viet Nam as well. You would've thought we would've remembered/learned from pass mistakes, no? LoTD"If the truth ever wins ask which lie fought for it"--Nietzche"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell Edited by: Luck of the Draw at: 1/25/06 4:29 am
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Frank 013
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Re: Torture

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[Luck: A better place for whom exactly?]Let's break it down shall we...Revolutionary war: Better for me, and all other American citizens. We do not have to send a large chuck of our hard earned money to Brittan in taxes.Civil War: I think most African Americans will agree that they would rather not be slaves.WWII: Almost every European country and Israel, most likely the whole world.[I would think carpet bombing/cluster bombs, the way we bomb the shit out of them, not once, twice, but three times would be a terrorizing ordeal.]Having been under mortar fire I can tell you first hand that it is very unsettling, but we have not done this to the Iraqis for a very long time now, so it does not count as terrorizing maybe terrorized.[Was of the understanding, they aren't as accurate as we are led to believe.]Not true, in artillery we could fire a 200lb projectile 21 miles and come within 10 feet of a moving target first try. These are non guided rounds, so any direct fire or missile system is going to be even more accurate. [It would appear the right thing to do seeing we are the source and it benefits us quite well, no?]It is the right thing to do, who makes money is irrelevant. [What could their reason for this sort of response be?]Because the insurgents want Iraq to become one of two types of government (depending on which group you talk to) either a Taliban style or return it to a Saddam like oppressive style. Because their religion can, and often is twisted to preach hatred and the poor brainwashed lackeys continue to fight against what is actually good for them. Because the insurgents want almost anything before a free Iraq. [Would also agree, should reconsider if there is in division amongst fellow citizens/global community pertaining war/invasions etc.]Yes, we should consider such things before an offensive, to bad there was no such movement before the Iraqi invasion. Remember Bush asked for permission to go to war, our presidents do not have the authority to make that decision on their own. What we should NOT do is to change our minds after we have already committed to the mission. Later
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Frank 013
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Re: Torture

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Add on from aboveAs far as the international community goes, the loudest opponents were in bed with Saddam and we knew it. We had Intel and verbal admissions from escaping Iraqi scientists that WMD's were being produced against the UN's orders. We gave Iraq (Saddam) alternatives to war but he refused. The American Leadership (not just the president) and the American people authorized this war, and Saddam's pride let it happen.
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torture

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F013---We had Intel and verbal admissions from escaping Iraqi scientists that WMD's were being produced against the UN's orders.If this were correct/acurate then whyweren't WMD's not found?What happened to "we know they have them/know where they are" that Bush preached?
Niall001
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Re: torture

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Fallout leads to blowback.Frank, the laws you refer to exist because it is wrong to break them. They do not exist to help America win wars. The point of abiding by the law is not to gain something, but to avoid doing that is evil.If your enemy decides to kill innocents, then do you? You might even gain something from killing them? Hell, you could have just nuked Iraq, some of your enemies would not hessitate to use nuclear weapons on the US. When your enemy beheads one of yours, do you behead one of them? Like I've said before, the only thing that ever seperates two opponenets are their values. When you behave like your enemy, you are no better than them. You may argue that it is necessary to fight like them, but that is to say that your neccessity dictates your morality. Your enemy would claim that beheading innocent people and unarmed captive soldiers is necessary. These laws exist so that people don't make the mistake of thinking that such actions can be justified.Quote: do believe that the Geneva Convention allows for situations like these. one problem is that these rules are for nations at war. We call this action a war, like we were fighting another nation's army but that is not true. The geneva Convention does not apply. We are in fact fighting insurgents and rebels, none of which could be converted by kindness. They are not bound by the rules of war, and we should not tie our hands with those rules either. You talk about these people as though they were a uniform group, but as you rightly point out, they are not a traditional army. They are small groups with often different ideologies. Do you really think that the former Bathists in Iraq want Wahhabism? No. The Iraqi insurgents are not unified in their political aims and they are not unified in their morality. Perhaps some might endorse torture, but that does not mean that they all do. Last, think about future wars. Non-Americans looking at this war see what you do. America does not abide by International law. America tortures. America does not release prisoners. America holds child captives. America will not let the Red Cross examine prisoners. By your logic, if in ten years time China comes into conflict with the US, it will be justified in treating US soldiers in the same way that you have treated your Arabic enemies. In which case, your future would not look very pleasant. Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard MathesonThere are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes
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Frank 013
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Re: torture

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Luck[If this were correct/accurate then why weren't WMD's found?]There could be many reasons; 1. They were never there. 2. They had several months to hide/move them. 3. They could have destroyed them. For all we know the weapons are sitting pretty in Iran. [What happened to "we know they have them/know where they are" that Bush preached?]Same answer as above.NiallThe Geneva Convention applies to nations at war not police forces in an allied country. (This is what we are now by the way.) It specifically mentions the treatment of prisoners from opposing armies, not rebel forces or hostile illegal immigrants. Since these insurgents are not part of an organized army anywhere in the world they are not protected by the Geneva Convention. Since we are guests in an allied country it is the laws of that country that we must follow. We are in fact working with an ally at this point and most operations are cooperated. [If your enemy decides to kill innocents, then do you? You might even gain something from killing them? Hell, you could have just nuked Iraq, some of your enemies would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons on the US. When your enemy beheads one of yours, do you behead one of them?] As you well know we have done none of these things, but if we had bee nuked I believe the offending country would be turned to a bead of glass.The reason many Iraqi civilians have died in this war is not because we hit civilians on purpose, or because we have inaccurate weaponry, but because Saddam put military assets in public schools, hospitals, and neighborhoods. [When you behave like your enemy, you are no better than them.]I believe we already covered the fact that we are, in fact, no better but equal as people.[You may argue that it is necessary to fight like them, but that is to say that your necessity dictates your morality.]The danger here is obvious. (at least to me) If we do not allow necessity to dictate morality we may not be around long enough to celebrate our good morals, we are battling an enemy that is so fanatical that any hesitation is likely to cost lives. [Your enemy would claim that beheading innocent people and unarmed captive soldiers is necessary.] Well that is why they are stupid, why would you kill someone that you could torture for information? Remember, we are not physically hurting them, we are not chopping their heads ff on camera, we are not dragging their bodies through the streets. We are asking questions with a reward and punishment system added. And we are not asking in this manner very often, probably less than 5%.[Perhaps some might endorse torture, but that does not mean that they all do.]Well than why don't you go and point out all of the good hearted terrorists for us, and we will give them a break. How does that sound? I am willing to make a guess here; you have never been face to face with a radical, Muslim. Correct?When we bring these people in for questioning they kick, they scream profanity, they spit, they talk about how Allah is going to kill us all, they tell us that they are going to destroy our homes and rape our wives, they consistently refer to us as infidels and dogs, and you expect us to play nice with them? You would have better luck playing with a rabid tiger.Future wars; What have we done that is so offensive to you? As I stated before, we have actually been more humane during this conflict than any other in our history. The reason for this is obvious, the Media. When everything you are doing is caught on film you had better behave.I simply don't get you, what would you have us do? Fight with flower power, harsh language, I know! We could show them our disappointed face. Really If China and the US actually got into a war I could only hope to be treated as well as most of our prisoners. The prisoners that are not so well treated, well they will still live to tell their story and that is more than a-lot of POW's of the past can say.Later
Luck of the Draw

Re: torture

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Frank---please explain how the Geneva Conventions applied and were adequate enuff for all our former presidents? It deals with Prisoners of WAR and we are fighting the war of terrorism. What was the need for Bush to attempt to circumvent these rules/laws of war? Why did we make ourselved the exception to these laws of war? Could it be that we ourselves could be brought up on war crimes charges? Torture isn't okay, inspite what Rumsfeld and Cheney state. The humane treatment of POWs is one of the positives that came out of WWII. How many generations does it take to for the hatred of the death march of Bataan to subside? We are doing the same thing...increasing/fueling hatred. LoTD"If the truth ever wins ask which lie fought for it"--Nietzche"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell Edited by: Luck of the Draw at: 1/26/06 11:45 pm
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