I was watching the news today and I saw something that got me thinking... The Pope is in town and is going to tour parts of New York City tomorrow, in preparation security is being posted and roads will be blocked for most of the day. This will of course affect everyone in those parts of the city for the duration of the Pope's tour.

What I began to think about is all of the fuss and attention the Pope's security detail is getting and why the Pope believes that any of it is necessary.

My question is... why would the Pope, a person who allegedly believes in "divine protection" and "god's will" think that they need security?

Isn't that showing a lack of trust in his great and powerful lord?

Isn't using security people for protection an attempt to alter god's will?

Doesn't this show the Pope as a hypocrite?

Later

Well, as Calvin and Franklin said, god helps those who help themselves. Remember the last Pope got shot before he got the PopeMobile. Lax security is an invitation to the crazies. And Benny the Rat is a big guy.

RT
Well, as Calvin and Franklin said, god helps those who help themselves. Remember the last Pope got shot before he got the PopeMobile. Lax security is an invitation to the crazies. And Benny the Rat is a big guy.

I agree that for a normal practical person those security measures are appropriate, but normal people aren't preaching about their unwavering faith in god's existence, his mercy, compassion and the trust that they hold in their god and his unlimited power.

I suspect that if he really felt that way he would think that security was unnecessary.

Even the Pope seems to have limitations as to his expectations of protection granted by his almighty god, and apparently he does not consider his own death at gunpoint to be god's will.

I find that funny because in the event of a tragic death the Pope would undoubtedly comfort someone by suggesting that the death was god's will and part of god's divine plan. Yet for some reason the Pope apparently holds no faith in god's plan for himself.

Furthermore the Pope's skepticism about gods plan for himself is not encouraged or allowed for regular church members. The Pope and the church both commonly preach that god is all powerful and to trust in him and his plan. This seems to be a clear case of do what I say and not what I do...

I'm leaning towards hypocrite...

Later

Um, is this serious?

Frank, we can't know what the Pope really believes. He is supposed to be infallible but I don't suppose he really believes that either.

I am not a Roman Catholic but I was actually quite fond of the last Pope, I remembered him becoming Pope - a Polish Actor - with a lot of charisma and I was interested enough to read his biography at the time. It was awful to see him grow so old and infirm.....and it still being demanded of him that he fulfil his duties. So even if you disagree with a person quite strongly, you can still be fond of them.


The trouble is Frank, with faith, especially when it has been taught to us throughout generations.....it is deeply held. It won't just go away overnight....or even change overnight. The change has to be gradual.
In the past the Pope didn't travel around so much....stayed safe in the Vatican. Now the Pope travels around.....so they have to address the issues involved.

Don't be beligerent Frank, it doesn't suit you. He is just a vulnerable old man and needs protection. If you thought of him this way, I know you would be the first to rush to his protection.

Penelope
Frank, we can't know what the Pope really believes. He is supposed to be infallible but I don't suppose he really believes that either.

That is my whole point... Why follow the dogma of a religion when the leaders of the religion apparently do not believe their own teachings?

Penelope
I am not a Roman Catholic but I was actually quite fond of the last Pope, I remembered him becoming Pope - a Polish Actor - with a lot of charisma and I was interested enough to read his biography at the time. It was awful to see him grow so old and infirm.....and it still being demanded of him that he fulfill his duties. So even if you disagree with a person quite strongly, you can still be fond of them.

That is true enough; I can dislike someone and still respect them, and I do respect the Pope for his courage and the willingness to accept such a huge burden... however misplaced I think his efforts are.

But that was not my criticism, and my criticism is not directed solely at the Pope. Everyone who claims that they are protected in the loving embrace of their god and still has health or life insurance, still gets annual checkups from their doctor, aren't they all showing some doubts as to the level trust they place in their god?

I suppose that most people can explain away any uncertainties by using the "god works in mysterious ways" excuse, or something similar. They may even believe it themselves, but from an outsiders perspective their claims do not match their behavior.

Penelope
The trouble is Frank, with faith, especially when it has been taught to us throughout generations.....it is deeply held. It won't just go away overnight....or even change overnight. The change has to be gradual.

I agree, but without someone pointing out the absurdities change will not occur at all.

Penelope
In the past the Pope didn't travel around so much....stayed safe in the Vatican. Now the Pope travels around.....so they have to address the issues involved.

Like I said before, I agree with the security measures, they seem practical to me... but I do not claim to believe that I am protected by the loving, all powerful, creator of our vast universe, nor do I claim to trust in that being's divine will; and lastly I do not serve as an example to countless people as the infallible speaker of the faith.

One thing I make sure that I always do as a leader is to follow one simple rule, I will never have the people who serve under me do anything I wouldn't do myself.

But the Pope does not seem to share in this philosophy, on one hand he preaches to accept and trust in god's divine will; on the other he hides behind an army of paid security.

I think this begs the question, how much faith does the Pope (or anyone) really have in the security that their god is claimed to offer?

Penelope
Don't be belligerent Frank, it doesn't suit you. He is just a vulnerable old man and needs protection. If you thought of him this way, I know you would be the first to rush to his protection.

I was not attempting to be belligerent and of course I agree that the man needs security, but I also do not think god will intervene on his behalf if things get ugly.

I am simply curious as to where the line is drawn, why do people believe that god will help them when it is clear that even the Pope doesn't count on that assistance? And if god is not someone who can be counted on, what good is he?

Later

Well, if God always protected us, even when we put ourselves into unecessary danger.....he would be like a genie in the magic lamp. We are taught to believe that God is like a father. The best father cannot protect his children and allow them freedom to grow......especially if they put themselves in deliberate danger and do foolish things....as we all do.

As you know, I am not an atheist by any means.........I can see that we have got the teachings wrong and there have been many unscrupulous people leading our religions and twisting them to suit themselves. I just pray 'be with me'. Because I am heartily fed up of all the bullshit that I have been lead to believe throughout my life.

So, every morning now and every evening....I don't say anything... and I don't read anything religious. I just, sort of, tune myself in like a radio.

It seems to work.....because we are only made of vibrations......

Still, I can see why the Pope and the Archbish etc....are still there. After the first World War, Europe lost its faith in Churches largely. Many writers of the 1920's and '30's and especially poets.....wrote about our loss of innocence and faith. Churches in Europe have never really recovered since then......few people attend now. But, they couldn't just disappear overnight. They are very wealthy for one reason.

I would surmise that various Christian religions have been trying to legitimise/update/modernise their doctrines (as I think Robert tries to do).

Up to now it hasn't worked........but they will develop one way or another. I always think that the Muslim faith seems to be like Christianity was 200 years ago. The Buddhist faith seems to be in advance of Christianity.....Maybe we will learn from each other. What do you think?

Now Frank, this is just silly. I refer you to a conversation between Jesus Christ and Satan (Matthew 4:5-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... w%204:1-11 ) where our Lord and Saviour said 'do not put The Lord your God to the test.' Your comments amount to suggesting that if Benny the Rat was on the highest point of the temple with Satan in the holy city he would be able to jump off and fly. Most unlikely.

I have heard Benny has expressed his deep remorse about pedophilic priests in the Roman Catholic Church in the USA. Perhaps he should also express remorse for believing things that are false, such as the virgin birth. As Voltaire said, who believes absurdities permits atrocities.