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Morality of Abortion

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Interbane

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Morality of Abortion

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What does everyone think of the recent Supreme court leak?

Should Roe VS Wade be overturned? Why or why not?

How deeply can you support your reasoning?

The foundational support appears to differ along religious vs secular morality.
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Chris OConnor

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Re: Morality of Abortion

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I'm pretty concerned with this development. I am fantasizing that this "leak" is just a rumor blown out of proportion. But it is likely true seeing as conservatives have the majority on the Supreme Court.

I support Roe vs. Wade entirely. I'm not a fan of abortion and do believe many women use it too frequently, but do we really want those women being forced into motherhood? Is that good for the child or the mother or for society?

The pro-choice argument that a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her body has always bugged me. The argument needs to be that the unborn fetus doesn't yet have the same rights as the living woman and her needs and desires trump (I hate that word now) those of the unborn baby. It sounds silly to call the unborn baby just a part of her body. Yes, it's connected via umbilical cord but is this just a part of her body? Really? It's a developing human being.

Still, I support abortion rights and think Roe v Wade got it right.
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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This is not a rumor. The leak indicates the justices have considered all the evidence and already voted to overturn Roe. All they're doing now is tweaking the leaked opinion and writing dissents. Roe will be gone once the final opinion is published in a couple of months. At that point abortion will be illegal in about 22+ states.

My own opinion is similar to Chris'. Every instance of abortion is a tragedy, but the right should exist. Perhaps when our rape culture is dismantled then more restrictions could be enacted, but that won't happen any time soon.

A local politician shows where all this is headed. Jean Schmidt proposed Ohio House bill 598, “the Human Life Protection Act,” that would ban abortions in Ohio if Roe was overturned, which is about to happen. The bill has no exception for rape or incest. Schmidt defends the lack of these exceptions as follows.
"Rape is a difficult issue and it emotionally scars the individual, all or in part, for the rest of their life, just as child abuse does. But if a baby is created, it is a human life. And whether that mother ends that pregnancy or not, the scars will not go away, period. It is a shame that it happens but there is an opportunity for that woman, no matter how young or old she is, to make a determination about what she's going to do to help that life be a productive human being. ... Just because you have emotional scars doesn't give you the right to take the life,"

4/28/22
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/p ... 568456002/
Rape is an opportunity? That view is based on the value that the rights of the unborn child override absolutely everything. Also notice the comment "the scars will not go away, period" appears to be a strong part of the argument. But that lack of healing is true of any crime. If a man breaks a woman's leg and then is sentenced to pay her medical bills and spend time in jail, that does not make her scars go away, so that line of reasoning is not valid.

Consider that in the U.S. rape culture, many states allow rapists to have visitation and custody rights. Once Roe is gone, more women will be interacting with their rapist for the rest of their lives.
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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First of all, I wasn't familiar with the term "rape culture." I assume that is not your own wording but something used in the media. I guess what you are saying is that rape is all too common in our society. Is that what you mean by a rape culture?

I also had no clue that courts would allow a rapist to have visitation rights to the child. That is pure and raw evil. Holy shit that's crazy. Just insane.

So a woman is violated in the most horrendous way by being raped and then for the rest of her life she has to raise a child that is the product of that rape, and then help facilitate the visitation of her child with the actual rapist. Sometimes I question how we are considered a first world nation.
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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The U.S. rape and sex assault culture involves many aspects.
  • Interrogating female rape victims during initial police interviews and at trial about their dress, behavior, drinking, sex history, etc. Ohhhh, so you were banging dating your supposed rapist? Exactly how hard did you fight back? Let's make it as painful as possible to report rape and sex assault to the police.
  • Repeat the above behavior at trial. Let's make prosecuting rape as traumatic as possible for the victim.
  • Women's stories are frequently dismissed outright.
  • 200,000 untested rape kits. We simply cannot process all that evidence, you might ruin some man's career! https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters ... ly/594046/
  • Visitation and custody rights for rapists as mentioned earlier.
  • Wealthy rapists allowed to commit rape for long periods of time. Of course our multi-tiered justice system permits this for many crimes.
  • Universities attempt to resolve rape issues without going to police for publicity reasons.
  • The military requires rape victims to use their justice system, which may include testifying against their superior. This may be changing due to very high rates of sex assault in the military.
  • Rape is now an opportunity to become a parent as discussed in a previous post.
  • Families tend to sweep incest and sex assault under the rug.
  • Once Roe is abolished, miscarriages will be investigated as potential abortions making that horrific situation even more traumatic.
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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I agree with you both. Any dissenters around?

Pete Buttigieg had an excellent response to the issue of abortion during the 2020 race. I often find myself referring back to it.
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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I don't want to dilute this thread, but these statements from Lawrence Tribe (who is quoted in the SCOTUS draft) could be very important.
Reading the draft, written by Justice Samuel Alito, you quickly learn that all the rights people have long taken for granted — like the rights to decide whom to marry, whether to use birth control, with whom to have sex, how to raise your children, and an endless list of other freedoms — will no longer be protected unless you can point to language in the Constitution expressly guaranteeing those rights, or convince five Supreme Court justices that they are “deeply rooted in this nation’s history and tradition” and “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty.”

5/3/22
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/05/03/ ... er-rights/
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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The idea that our Constitution is somehow this magical and perfect document that addresses all past, present and future needs of our nation is ludicrous. To me the worship of the Constitution isn't much better than how some Biblical literalists view the Bible.

Surely we have evolved as a society past the point where we worship antiquated words on paper. The Constitution was written at a time when assault rifles, global warming, birth control and abortion just weren't issues. Justice Samuel Alito is wise to point out how this court decision could be a slippery slope.
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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Interbane wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 8:12 am What does everyone think of the recent Supreme court leak?

Should Roe VS Wade be overturned? Why or why not?
Morally, abortion isn’t black and white. Ideally no one would ever resort to abortion, but in reality they do. Since Roe vs. Wade, our nation’s laws have tried to strike a balance between this idealized state and the reality. Many states allow abortions until 20 weeks or so, the early embryonic stages, before there's a heartbeat, but even this dividing line seems somewhat arbitrary. I still like Hillary Clinton’s idea that abortion should be “safe, legal, and rare.” But now all bets are off. Abortion is part of the culture war and Roe vs. Wade is on the chopping block.

Chris makes a good point that since abortion is not specifically protected in the Constitution it cannot be the law of the land. But then what about our other rights?

Even Ruth Ginsberg, who was strongly pro choice, saw Roe vs. Wade as weak bedrock for abortion rights. She suggested that abortion should be tied to equal rights for a stronger footing.

https://time.com/5354490/ruth-bader-gin ... oe-v-wade/

I’m not sure how significant the overturning of Roe vs. Wade is, given that many states have already made abortion very difficult. We seem stuck on as path of separation. What rights we have will be largely determined by whether we live in a blue or red state.
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Re: Morality of Abortion

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I am satisfied that Roe v Wade was well-reasoned legally. I can't convince myself that a woman should have to bear a child conceived by rape. And thus I can't convince myself that an embryo in early stages should be regarded as a person with full rights to be protected by the state. The idea that the state will get involved in investigating miscarriages to see that they were not due to negligence on the part of the mother just strikes me as abominable, yet that is already going on. By that logic, the entire society should be investigated for every pregnancy that is not fully supported to make sure no avoidable harm comes to mother and child.

At the same time, our twins were born after only 28 weeks of pregnancy (26 weeks is the end of the second trimester) and were well taken care of and now healthy contributors to society. There is no way I can see them as "not people" at that stage. So I think the state does have some interest in the life of unborn fetuses. Certainly after viability. I am sympathetic to those who want to discourage abortions and limit their frequency. I just can't convince myself that the state should come crashing in as though we are dealing with moral absolutes. It just doesn't add up for me.

Ross Douthat had a good column in the New York Times last year making the conservative case. He argued that abortion is violence, and thus should be excused only in extreme cases (which included rape and incest, for him). And I rather see that point, but I found myself asking if it wasn't a particular kind of "violence" that could be to safeguard a woman's health, or to prevent a total disruption of her life, involving the incredibly personal process of bringing a life into the world. So, Douthat's point notwithstanding, I remain convinced that an early pregnancy is her business, period, and that the second trimester of pregnancy is a grey zone where we ought to respect the burden a woman (with her partner, I hope) must take on voluntarily for it to be appropriate and meaningful.

Good discussion, folks. Thanks to all.
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