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Ukraine invasion

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Taylor

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Ukraine invasion

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I’m carrying this from the weird FPSfB is a genius thread to an independent discussion of the current situation in Eastern Europe.

I’m glued to the news about this story. There’s a war in Europe, not the first historically but the first in my life time. ( Was Bosnia/Herzegovina a European war?) What is happening now in Ukraine can blowup into a very large situation that may be uncontrollable by the powers to be, those people responsible.

Is there a finger of blame to point out? Who’s the bad guy in this situation?

I blame libertarian social darwinist ideology. What do you think?
Has society in its pursuit of ideological freedom, freedom claims that start at the individual level and conflate to some twisted sense of group oppression of some combination of potential threats towards a broader portion of society has somehow brought society to the point of not just street level deadly violence but to a larger national violence that has now encompassed continental regions?

Is what we are witnessing going to move past a point of no return? Has the clock stopped are we going to remain in this stagnant neutrality where some amazing things happen but have little realized value because society is stuck in a repetitive meander of manufactured fear?

I think yes! I think that there is no return to security levels of a mere half dozen years ago. I think we are not going to progress because I truly think we are witnessing/ in the throes of the culmination of decades of uninhibited laissez-faire economics, the deconstruction of the administrative state. I think this has been the libertarian goal and I think it has for them been a complete success.
I’m hard pressed to think otherwise.
What is normal after two plus years of covid, what seems like seven years of trumps bullshit, and now what we are seeing in Europe?.

This Mose recent Olympic Games...Who could drag themselves to even be interested? Let alone watch a few minutes of the bore show live on television? What is there other than backyard gardening?

What venture is there that the world can get behind and cheer? The James Webb Telescope is poised to be great for scientific discovery but who can even get exited about it when way too many of us can’t get passed the 2020 election?.

How long are we supposed to be buried in this fabricated loggerhead of a fight for freedom? What rights have been lost? What rights have been gained? Why are smart people hung up on trivial nuances between bold new actions taken in stride and fear of any action that may be perceived as being anti business? Anti profit? Pro control? Pro regulation?

Aren’t the subtleties in life the things that move society’s forward? How did fear become so predominant?

:)
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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Taylor wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 12:26 am
Is there a finger of blame to point out? Who’s the bad guy in this situation?
Thanks for posting this, Taylor. The blame falls entirely on Putin, a dictator who quite possibly has become unhinged during the Covid pandemic. Incidentally he's a master propagandist, able to control the news in Russia to the point where he has a lot of support by the people. The internet is heavily censored there. He and his army of Russian trolls also infiltrate America's social media. FoxNews has become a mouthpiece for Russian propaganda. Where else do you imagine this pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine attitiude comes from but from Russia itself. Donald Trump seems at times to be a Russian agent by the things he says, including the infamous incident at Helsinki in 2018 when he essentially sided with Russia over claims of interference in the 2016 presidential election over his own intelligence community. Hard to believe that people can so easily become tools for Russia. But it's very plain to see.
Taylor wrote: I blame libertarian social darwinist ideology. What do you think?
Has society in its pursuit of ideological freedom, freedom claims that start at the individual level and conflate to some twisted sense of group oppression of some combination of potential threats towards a broader portion of society has somehow brought society to the point of not just street level deadly violence but to a larger national violence that has now encompassed continental regions?
I don't know a lot about "libertarian social darwinist ideology" except from what you’ve said on this forum. Isn't this just a form of populism?
Taylor wrote:Is what we are witnessing going to move past a point of no return? Has the clock stopped are we going to remain in this stagnant neutrality where some amazing things happen but have little realized value because society is stuck in a repetitive meander of manufactured fear?
This could escalate into a global conflict. I don’t think the west can let Putin get away with it. What gives me hope is that I really do think Putin is acting alone here. Even a lot of Russian troops don’t feel good about what is happening. I like to think good will prevail over evil.
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Robert Tulip

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Re: Ukraine invasion

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I did quite a bit of study of Mongolian history when I managed Australia's aid program to Mongolia.

When Genghis Khan conquered Russia, his successors shifted the capital from Kiev to Moscow. Known as the "Tatar Yoke" of the Golden Horde, the Mongols ruled Russia as a vassal state for centuries, from their initial invasion in 1236 until 1480. Ukraine was part of this vassal empire whereby the Mongols lived in luxury in their capital on the Volga and paid the Moscow thugs as their tax collectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_in ... ongol_rule

Putin is now channeling his own inner Genghis Khan, expressing the affront that Ukraine, a key part of the old Mongol Empire, could reject imperial suzerainty. He will reduce Kiev to rubble like most recently happened to Mosul in Syria, applying the tyrannical principle 'tremble and obey'.
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Taylor

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Re: Ukraine invasion

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I don't know a lot about "libertarian social darwinist ideology" except from what you’ve said on this forum. Isn't this just a form of populism?
Thanks Geo, you’ve asked the fundamental question.
Populism encompasses any thing that is popular culture, so can one claim that classic rock is pop culture?
Libertarianism has been the driving economic ideology in the U.S. for the past 4 decades, does that mean we are non the throes of a populist movement?
The key point of my recent ranting seems to me to be emphasizing the slow roll of libertarian ideology.
I’m not keen on the word “populist” . I’ve considered myself a type of outsider though I have fallen prey to group think. I’m not immune public/private influences of my thinking but I’ve never really been conventional or traditional in my ways.
Around the time I discovered BookTalk.org I also concluded that to understand politics one had to understand economics. I’ve studied as best I can not only the key arguments presented on this forum but all the other aspects of life I’ve thought about but didn’t really think about.
I’ve conditioned myself to think about what I think about. I credit you and the other regulars with helping me think better. Think about that?
I’m real, I’m just a mechanic, I don’t have an intimate relationship with higher education. What I do have is a lot of books, a desire to never stop learning. I know that there is a lot that I don’t know. I do not suffer Dunning/Kruger.
So politics is economics, for me this is absolute.
Ask yourself, “what is the dominant economic ideology driving the world not just today but for the time of your adulthood?.
The answer is Libertarianism. If there are problems societally and those problems are political and politics are economics, then it stands to reason that libertarianism is the root cause.
This fundamental realization is what shifted me to the left.
Pushback on the social darwinist, repressive nature of a“dog eat dog” rationalization that is beyond populism and is well ensconced in acultural zeitgeist.
This is not just an American thing. It is the new globalization. It is in my opinion the “moral” foundation that is responsible for the anti-humanism we witness daily on the local and national and international news.
Getting back to the classic rock analogy. The Austrian school of economics has been an economic model that has been utilized, in use, practiced, desired for over a century. The New Deal was better realized and implemented through most of the 20th century. Austrian school influences came into vogue with the rise of Reagan, Volcker and Greenspan. Acolytes of Ayn Rand’s “objectivism”. These influences pervade not just current culture but were embraced by the likes of Bill Clinton as well, His embrace of Wall Street money is directly attributable to the hypocrisies that the Democratic Party is now dealing with.
Libertarianism is too closely associated with greed.
Yet the Tu quoque fallacy is hung around the necks of the Democratic Party by constant charges of socialistic desire.
What we are witnessing with the right wing isn’t populism as the ideology has been with us a long time. The methods of influence are just simply getting nastier, that’s the populist part.
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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Taylor wrote:Libertarianism has been the driving economic ideology in the U.S. for the past 4 decades, does that mean we are non (sic... not in or now in?) the throes of a populist movement?
I think I understand where you're going, but don't think the libertarian label is accurate. For example economists Milton and Rose Friedman were extremely influential in the 1980's with a book and 10 part television series Free to Choose. (Rebroadcast in 1990.) They argued for an aggressive form of capitalism with free markets unfettered by regulation, taxation, welfare, international trade barriers, minimum wages, social security, etc.

But that is not Libertarianism. Libertarians like Ayn Rand and Objectivists take the free market to the extreme, arguing that even safety regulations like fire codes or seat belts and aircraft maintenance, health regulations that prevent poisoning employees, or minimum wages and unions are unethical infringements on a business owner's right to conduct business in any way he or she sees fit. "If you want a job that pays more than $5.25 per day in a facility that is not a fire trap and has a non-toxic atmosphere, then you are free to look for a job elsewhere...if you can find it!"

On top of that, Libertarians advocate the legalization of all drugs, prostitution, and the ownership of any type of weapon. The military would be radically scaled back to a purely defensive posture, eliminating foreign interventions and almost all of the 750 military bases located in 80+ countries. Taxation for the military and everything else would be greatly reduced. Government infrastructure spending would be nearly eliminated - picture coast to coast toll roads, privately owned bridges, etc. There are good reasons why the Libertarian Party has never cracked even 1% of the popular vote!

I suspect what you really intend to say is "Laissez faire capitalism has been the driving economic ideology in the U.S. for the past 4 decades..."

Sorry 'bout that...now back to Ukraine...
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads.

...Eliminating the strategic nuclear warheads, intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), and strategic bombers in Ukraine was a big deal for Washington. The ICBMs and bombers carried warheads of monstrous size — all designed, built, and deployed to attack America. The warheads atop the SS-19 and SS-24 ICBMs in Ukraine had explosive yields of 400-550 kilotons each — that is, 27 to 37 times the size of the atomic bomb that devastated Hiroshima. The 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads — more than six times the number of nuclear warheads that China currently possesses — could have destroyed every U.S. city with a population of more than 50,000 three times over, with warheads left to spare.

Before agreeing to give up this nuclear arsenal, Kyiv sought three assurances. First, it wanted compensation for the value of the highly-enriched uranium in the nuclear warheads, which could be blended down for use as fuel for nuclear reactors. Russia agreed to provide that.

Second, eliminating ICBMs, ICBM silos, and bombers did not come cheaply. With its economy rapidly contracting, the Ukrainian government could not afford the costs. The United States agreed to cover those costs with Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction assistance.

Third, Ukraine wanted guarantees or assurances of its security once it got rid of the nuclear arms. The Budapest Memorandum provided security assurances.

12/5/2019
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr ... emorandum/
Do the commitments the U.S., Britain, and Russia made in the Budapest Memorandum carry any weight now? Why not? What message does this send to countries that are developing nuclear weapons or considering getting rid of them?
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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Robert Tulip wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:02 pm Putin is now channeling his own inner Genghis Khan, expressing the affront that Ukraine, a key part of the old Mongol Empire, could reject imperial suzerainty.
Well, Genghis was reputedly a competent leader whose approach to governance and even bureaucracy tended to be better than most of what it replaced. Not much chance of that from Vlad the Impaler. He has trashed the Russian economy and now wants the whole society to return to pre-1990 totalitarian domination, minus the utopian ideology of the communist party. Some people learn nothing from history.
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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LanDroid wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 6:11 pm
Do the commitments the U.S., Britain, and Russia made in the Budapest Memorandum carry any weight now? Why not? What message does this send to countries that are developing nuclear weapons or considering getting rid of them?
To me this is the biggest moral issue, after the horror of the brutal invasion itself. When Putin set aside these accords it drastically reduced the likelihood that nuclear non-proliferation could prevail. The 2014 invasion nailed down the coffin lid. And now this invasion is putting the coffin 6 feet under.

However I must remark that the accords were really all about keeping the nuclear material out of the hands of terrorists, a priority for Russia as well as the U.S. The real quid pro quo was enough aid to pay the cost of decommissioning the nukes and a little sweetener for spreading around among cronies and claiming some gain for Ukraine in the short run. In the state the Ukrainian government and society were in at the time, the need to hang on to nukes as a deterrent to Russia was a distant second priority after the need for money quick, which probably would have led to selling them to Al Qaeda. Think about that as a 9/11 scenario.
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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This will age me, but why do I suddenly feel my childhood creeping back in a not so good way. The desk drills were behind us (mostly) but the Fallout shelters were everywhere and we still knew where to go if we needed to. (not that it would have REALLY helped, but you never know how much better than nothing it would turn out to be).

We really need to walk a fine line, and help Ukraine as much as we can, but we need to try not to end up in a nuclear war while we are at it. Putin does not seem stable, and might be mad that he lost his friend when this country didn't re-elect you know who. For all we know, this might be why 45 was that desperate to stay in power.

I have heard a lot of strange conspiracy theories, which continues to prove that social media is the worst way for people to get their news and facts.

1.This is all staged for the masses to believe it is happening, but it really isn't.

2. It was Americans who bombed the hospital to make Russia look bad

3. The Hospital was actually full of Ukranian forces and Russia needed to remove that threat.

4. Faucci had bio weapon labs in Russia and Ukraine and they had to take them out

So far I haven't heard any Epstein based theories, but I doubt they are finished yet.
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Re: Ukraine invasion

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One bizarre aspect of this invasion is the claim that NO ONE saw this coming. Political pundits dismissed it, the US intelligence community didn't see it, and even the Russian soldiers were mislead into believing it was all a large training exercise.

But I expect a few BookTalkers have been expecting this for a long time, those who read Winter is Coming: Why Vladimir Putin and the Enemies of the Free World Must be Stopped by Garry Kasparov. The was at the end of 2018 / beginning of 2019. It didn't generate many comments, but Kasparov's message is very clear...
winter-is-coming-why-vladimir-putin-and ... -f283.html
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